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What to do with a 1302? Wheel offset dilemma.

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waveman1500 Also rides a Honda

1,346 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#778431
Hi all.

Normally I know what I want to do with my cars and don't need to ask for other people's approval. At the moment, however, I simply can't decide what to do! At this time last year I was happily thrashing my scruffy 1500 Beetle at every khanacross and dirt motorkhana which I could afford to get to, thus:



It had good mechanicals and sound but battered bodywork, which of course made it the perfect motorsport car for off-road use, as I didn't mind too much about scratches, dents or indeed ripping half a fender off the body.

That car is sadly a wreck now, and my new car is now on the road. It's an S-bug with a straight, rust-free body and rather nice red paint, but currently it is literally a foot off the ground. This spoils the cool looks somewhat, and indeed probably the handling, but it may be useful for offroad work. The question is, now that I have a car with decent bodywork I'm not sure I want to thrash it offroad!



The car has changed a little bit from the photo above, and has a stock front bumper on now. I'm planning on polishing it tomorrow and then getting some new photos. I believe that the rear has been raised a bit too far by the previous owner, as the driveshafts have a significant downwards angle on them when the car is sitting on level ground.

Now that you have some background information, I was hoping that the forum can share some of it's considerable VW wisdom. Essentially, the choices I'm contemplating are as follows:

Option 1: Lower the rear back to stock height, or until the driveshafts are horizontal with the car at rest. Leave the front at stock height. Run the car in offroad motorsport and hope that the paint will fare okay. I do really enjoy khanacross, and it's very cheap, so this was my original plan.

Option 2: Lower the front as much as is convenient, using either lowered sports springs and/or lowered or adjustable struts. Lower the rear to match so that it looks good. The car would then probably be lower than ideal for khanacross, but I could then switch to doing concrete motorkhanas and hillclimbs, perhaps upgrading to modern regularity or sprints if funds allow. This option is tempting as I know that the S-bug would look and handle better when lowered, and in reality I spend 95% of my driving time on sealed roads anyway, so setting the car up for dirt driving isn't exactly relevant to everyday life. I could still go khanacrossing with a lowered car, but the potential for paint damage would be greater. Lowering the car does strike me as looking expensive though, since new or modified struts are really needed to drop it more than an inch.

So, should I go stage-rally style or tarmac rally style? Let me know what you think.
1972 VW S-Bug - For Sale!
1968-onwards Beetle panels and glass for sale

STIDUB Over it.

1,497 posts · joined Jun 2008 ·

#778435
step one, join SBO forums, read lots
step two, repeat that on germanlook
step three, dont blame me when your broke 👍

oh, & if your keen on corners & lowering etc, call rich @ V-force, & await the rest of the super crew to say similar things
get onto topline for eccentric bushings & sway bar to suit going 4"+ lower if necessary (ive been waiting on my sway bars to finalise order for awhile though)

looking at that pic, i agree too nice for dirt, go motorkhana & hillclimb 🙂
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member 🙂

STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress

Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.

The above are personal views, no more, no less

waveman1500 Also rides a Honda

1,346 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#778445
STIDUB, I've been doing a lot of reading, but haven't tried SBO or Germanlook yet, so I'll give them a go. It's the third step that worries me! I'm not exactly cashed up at the moment and don't have regular work, so the cost of a complete new front-end setup definitely scares me. Perhaps if I could start out with some second hand struts and leave the stock springs/damper/swaybar for now, I might get away with it. If I go for the lowered look though, I'm going to need my arches rolled something fierce! The 195/70R14s on it are from my previous car and are nearly new, but they would be a bit wide to fit under the arches if I lowered the car by too much. The front offset is just about perfect (inner rim has about 2-3cm clearance to the spring) but the tyre sticks out from the side of the arches by about a centimetre. The rears are way out and would definitely need work if it was to go lower. So much money flashing before my eyes!
1972 VW S-Bug - For Sale!
1968-onwards Beetle panels and glass for sale

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 ·

#778451
STIDUB wrote:step one, join SBO forums, read lots
step two, repeat that on germanlook
step three, dont blame me when your broke 👍

oh, & if your keen on corners & lowering etc, call rich @ V-force, & await the rest of the super crew to say similar things
get onto topline for eccentric bushings & sway bar to suit going 4"+ lower if necessary (ive been waiting on my sway bars to finalise order for awhile though)

looking at that pic, i agree too nice for dirt, go motorkhana & hillclimb 🙂
Agreed. done dirt it. thats a waste. Lower and GL. check out dave carters beetle, joel's beetle... GL. do it. you can get cheap adjuctable struts. or cut the cup and reweld.

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#778457
Dirt race it.......more fun 👍


STIDUB Over it.

1,497 posts · joined Jun 2008 ·

#778464
craig, not everyone likes it as dirty as you 😂

if funds are an issue, talk to mustard ^^^^^^ he's sourced a few bits & peices for more... friendly prices than the top shelf new gear

oh & you will have a PM shortly
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member 🙂

STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress

Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.

The above are personal views, no more, no less

DaveCarter Officially Full-On Dubber

285 posts · joined Aug 2009 ·

#778469
Nice and low with wider wheels, Vforce struts and 944 rear end. Will handle like it is on rails. None of that tractor front end rubbish :P

More pics at http://clubvw.org.au/david_carter1.htm
My beast at Warwick drags:
And at Marulan:

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 ·

#778501
DaveCarter wrote:Nice and low with wider wheels, Vforce struts and 944 rear end. Will handle like it is on rails. None of that tractor front end rubbish :P
yeah... but some of us are on a budget...

A disc brake rear will help, nut isnt neeeeded.

You can get away with getting budget lowered struts (sherman) or adjustable ones. (call vintage/classic and ask..) renwing all the bushes, and depending on your budget, visit topline website to get camber adjustment parts. if you dont the front too much, you may wear things out.

Its definatly achieveable mate, hit me, dave, joel up with pm's if you need help finding stuff. 🙂

waveman1500 Also rides a Honda

1,346 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#778506
DaveCarter wrote:Nice and low with wider wheels, Vforce struts and 944 rear end. Will handle like it is on rails. None of that tractor front end rubbish :P
Yeah, I have to agree with Colonel Mustard on that one Dave, there is just no way that I will be lashing out on a 944 rear end. Completely unnecessary cost. Also, I don't think I can go any wider in the wheels either! They're already 6" wide, and stick out of the guards, so if the car was low enough they wouldn't even fit. I think a smaller offset on the rear would definitely be required, or wider guards all round.
1972 VW S-Bug - For Sale!
1968-onwards Beetle panels and glass for sale

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 ·

#778507
You sure they are 6 inch fronts, of 5.5? As far as im aware, 6 inch will cause issue in the front for you

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 ·

#778520
you wont be able to go much lower without swapping the rims first

with the offset of those any lower and it will scrub the gaurds when cornering or hittin bumps all the time
i had mine dropped a stupid 6" at one point and even with stock rims used to get rubbing

strut bugs can be a pain to get low on the cheap without stock wheels.
offset is the critical part but anything wider than 5.5" on the front will need slimline springs for clearance if you want to go lower

waveman1500 Also rides a Honda

1,346 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#778624
Thanks to everyone for their good advice. It's time for an update of pics! I've spent the best part of today polishing up the paint and bumpers, polishing up a bonnet badge and putting it on, and getting a few other little things done. I thought that this deserved some photos, especially since I haven't even taken a photo with the front bumper on yet!



There's some more photos in my Members' Rides thread here http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80860&page=2#pid778623





Here is the shot which best shows my current biggest problem: wheel fitment. The wheels I have on it at the moment are definitely 14x6", in pairs with two different offsets. The front pair has a greater offset, which leaves only about 2cm clearance to the spring, but the 195/70R14 tyres still stick out of the sides of the guards by a couple of centimetres. The rear tyres sit further out and are way off, perhaps 3cm outside the guards. I'm sure that going down to narrower section tyres would help, but I don't know whether it will be enough to get these rims to clear the stock guards. If money wasn't an object I'd like to keep the wheels and get wider guards, but this seems a bit of a waste of the excellent paint on the current guards.
1972 VW S-Bug - For Sale!
1968-onwards Beetle panels and glass for sale

waveman1500 Also rides a Honda

1,346 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#778963
ColonelMustard, those struts are seriously cheap. I'm not sure how much shipping would be but it would have to come in under $500 for a complete new front end. I kind of wonder if there's anything wrong with the stuff at that price, but I'll definitely think about them. I'm not planning to lower it just yet, as I've still got a few other things to sort out on the car first.
1972 VW S-Bug - For Sale!
1968-onwards Beetle panels and glass for sale

waveman1500 Also rides a Honda

1,346 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#779703
A spot of BugSelecta anyone?



I'm thinking of possibly buying some slotmags, what does everyone think? I've already got too many sets of wheels, and I really do like my widened steels, but they don't really fit on this car, so if I can buy something with the correct offset and then perhaps sell the widened steels then that may be a move in the right direction. My other set of wheels which I have sitting in the garage are Sunraysia-style steel wheels, in case I decide to off-road it and manage to save up the cash for some rally tyres!
1972 VW S-Bug - For Sale!
1968-onwards Beetle panels and glass for sale

71-BEETLE-SEDAN AKA Josh

1,058 posts · joined Mar 2009 ·

#779706
Dont tint too dark, pain in the ass to reverse at night without superbright reverse lighs, i cant mine that dark

waveman1500 Also rides a Honda

1,346 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#779709
The rear windows are already tinted, I'm not planning on doing them any darker. And my reversing lights aren't connected up. I'm currently running the red tail-lights from my 1500 because the clear section had broken off one of my S-Bug tail-lights. From driving my 1500 (no reverse lights) I got into the habit of gently touching the brake pedal to light up the brake lights when reversing in the dark. It works fine as long as you're careful and not parked too close to anything red! :P
1972 VW S-Bug - For Sale!
1968-onwards Beetle panels and glass for sale

STIDUB Over it.

1,497 posts · joined Jun 2008 ·

#779739
the above reverse technique is what i employed to overcome no reverse lights, it rocks!

theres a set fo those on ebay currently - if you havent seen them already

that looks similar to what i originally set out to have 😂 then look what happened!
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member 🙂

STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress

Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.

The above are personal views, no more, no less

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#779764
Hi

If you want to get it a bit lower on the cheap, 1st get another set of wheels made with a super friendly offset, then get someone with a lathe to turn the weld off the stock strut spring mount, then reweld it in the correct place, you will then need to ditch the stock bump stop and fit a cutdown Mk 1 Golf bump stop.

Steve

BiX Veteran Volks Folk

2,499 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#779927
To add to daves comments. My cars body work got thrashed on autocross, but dirt is so much fun.

In terms of suspension, try King Springs, though not in the catlogue, they do a lowered stiffer front sprint. Also get some stock 4.5 inch wheels, cur the centre out, get them welded into 6 inch band, so that with your tire combo, you have about 3mm clearance to teh strut. Next try clarks rubber and get some sqaure section rubber. Ie 15 ot 22mm. replace the guard strips with this, instant flared guards. Play with rear suspension, maybe a light weight sway bar.

Also I will put some large inner guards on mine made from rubber to help stop the stone damage. Maybe make up some big arse removeable mudflaps, plus protect the inner guards with palstic so you don't get chips from teh sidei out.

Well thats my 2c worth and pretty much what i had on my bug. also was good as a dialy. and done on a uni students budget.
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!

waveman1500 Also rides a Honda

1,346 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#780073
Hi guys, I'm starting to really question the whole idea of being able to go lower on wide wheels with stock guards. I tried on a set of 14x5.5" Enkei slot-mags the other day, which were apparently ET14, and they stuck out from the guards just as far as my current wheels! They did have 195/70R14s on them like mine, which didn't help, but even so the actual rim itself seemed to be sitting slightly proud of the fender. There wasn't much clearance at the back either, only perhaps a centimetre or two. This makes me wonder whether my wide steels are in fact 6" or 5.5". It's entirely possible that the front pair are 5.5" and the rear pair are 6", which would explain why they stick out a bit further.

What wheel width/offset and tyre combos have people had success with on stock Supers? I'm talking stock width fenders and springs, but possibly lowered 1-2". From what I can see I wouldn't want to go any closer to the strut than perhaps 5.5" ET20, or 6" ET15. I've heard that some special 1303 GT Beetle came with 15x5.5" ET26 wheels, so if these fit then perhaps I can go all the way to 5.5" ET26. All of this still requires the fitting of narrower tyres, at least 185s or possibly even 175s. If I'm going that narrow then I may just as well stick with 165/80s on stock cheese-cutters and call it done! All in all, I'm getting a bit frustrated by all this wheel/offset business, and as far as I can see the only sane option is to go for wider guards.

BiX, I'm interested in your idea about spacing the guards out with huge rubber strips, but I have a feeling that it would look terrible. 25mm rubber strips would get my stock fenders to clear 195s on my current wheels, but in my opinion there's not much point if it looks like a hack-job. Have you got any photos of your old car with the fender spacers? What did you do about bumper brackets and running board bolts? I'm assuming that you had to get longer bolts? All in all it seems to me that the only real way forward is to get wider guards and then get them painted to match, which puts the whole project out of my budget. Help!
1972 VW S-Bug - For Sale!
1968-onwards Beetle panels and glass for sale

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#780076
You NEED thin springs

195 60 series 15" ET36



205 55 series 16" ET 50

Futue te ipsum!!!

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 ·

#780105
very few 4x130 wheels look good on superbeetles.... the vforce wheels do, and custom steelies...

apparent from that, start looking at diffent stud patterns and brakes...

BiX Veteran Volks Folk

2,499 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#780128
I didn'te find the rubber that ugly. It was just rubber strip and by the time you bolt the guards on and compress the rubber you get about 15mm of space. Mine is on a white beetle, and unless you get close you don't really notice it. I run 195/60R15 on 8spokes with no problem with the rubber. they do rub the guard slighty on full compression. With custom offset steelies (not sure on number,as they were welded to suit) I can get 195 semis, which have a tread width of about 205mm. I ran nerf bars with spaces for a bumper, and redrilled the whole in the running boards.

I found getting a set of steelies made, was teh best way, as you can adjsut the offset to exactly what you want.

Going narrow springs, jsut makes life easier and takes away all the pain. Go the narrow springs from topline may be the easiest.
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!