You learn something mew every day
Tatra introduced an air-cooled flat four engine in the 1926 Tatra 30, followed by the T52 of 1930, T54 of 1931, T57 in 1931, and T75 in 1933, all with air-cooled flat fours of varying displacement. The 1936 T97 model pioneered the rear-engined,air-cooled flat-four, backbone chassis layout, later copied by the Volkswagen KdF-Wagen.
Yes, I believe that VW later paid Tatra several million deutschemarks as retrospective compensation for stealing the design. Of course, this was long after they had built several million cars and created a successful company.
From Wikipedia: "Tatra sued Porsche for damages, and Porsche was willing to settle. However, Hitler canceled this, saying he 'would settle the matter.' [5] When Czechoslovakia was invaded by the Nazis, the production of the T97 was immediately halted, and the lawsuit dropped. After the war, Tatra reopened the lawsuit against Volkswagen. In 1967, the matter was settled when Volkswagen paid Tatra 3,000,000 Deutsche Mark in compensation."
The Tatra T97 engine bay:
The generator is separate to the fan, but otherwise it looks pretty familiar!
VW designed the VW flat four engine. Tatra designed the Tatra flat four engine. So what? No one ever said the VW was the FIRST to use that particular design. But VW did it best, and by far the most successfully.
In any case, Ferdinand Porsche designed a flat four aircraft engine for use in Zeppelins in 1912, long before Tatra used that layout. He designed backbone chassis and air-cooled engine designs for Zundapp and NSU in the late 1920s. Porsche and Hans Ledwinka worked together at Wanderer (and often shared ideas. Porsche invented and patented torsion bars, for example.
And the first KdF-wagen prototypes were designed in 1934. Have a look too at the Type A Auto Union grand prix cars Porsche designed in 1934 too - torsion bars, swing axles. Porsche didn't 'copy' anything.
That Wikipedia article isn't quite right - it has Hans Ledwinka and his family looking for compensation, not the Tatra company. Porsche was always happy to admit that they shared ideas - "sometimes I looked over his shoulder - sometimes he looked over mine."
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Seems black64 is out to stir the pot....🤖
Phil74Camper wrote:VW designed the VW flat four engine. Tatra designed the Tatra flat four engine. So what? No one ever said the VW was the FIRST to use that particular design. But VW did it best, and by far the most successfully.
In any case, Ferdinand Porsche designed a flat four aircraft engine for use in Zeppelins in 1912, long before Tatra used that layout. He designed backbone chassis and air-cooled engine designs for Zundapp and NSU in the late 1920s. Porsche and Hans Ledwinka worked together at Wanderer (and often shared ideas. Porsche invented and patented torsion bars, for example.
And the first KdF-wagen prototypes were designed in 1934. Have a look too at the Type A Auto Union grand prix cars Porsche designed in 1934 too - torsion bars, swing axles. Porsche didn't 'copy' anything.
That Wikipedia article isn't quite right - it has Hans Ledwinka and his family looking for compensation, not the Tatra company. Porsche was always happy to admit that they shared ideas - "sometimes I looked over his shoulder - sometimes he looked over mine."
Lol this reply reads as though a child has been spurned...
Porsche was a very clever man who saw great innovation and put it to his own use
the KDf was indeed designed in 1934. after he attended the Berlin motorshow of 1933 where he saw the volkswagen of Joseph Ganz this car had a platform chassis with a center tube, a rear transaxle with a horizontal engine, a swing axle suspension in the back, and independent suspension in the front. The body is a simple aerodynamic shape that looks very similar to that of the VW Beetle .Ganz was a jew and was never going to succeed in germany where as porsche an Austrian was clever enough to work with the Hitler regime to further his dreams
Ganz Died in Australia after woking with holden for many years
it does appear that Ganz should get the credit for the volkswagen. but unless you were there??????
This is Ganz 1933 car
Keeping it real !
Lots of stories about of Porsche and who actually designed the engine..
We will never ever know the truth..now..
Renault also picked Porsche's head while He was in prison in France after the war...
and the trainload of Beetles that disappeared after the war
can;t remember where they went??
Tatra cars were usually much larger than the Beetle
The last Tatra from memory was an 8 cylinder air cooled in the rear..
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
Porsche designed the kDf-Wagen after he had done earlier, similar designs for Wanderer, Zundapp and NSU, NOT after he saw Ganz's little two stroke MaiKafer. The Ganz story is a furphy, based more on religious self-justification than reality.
This is Porsche's Zundapp design from 1932 - torsion bars, platform chassis, rear air-cooled engine. The direct predecessor of the Volkswagen.
Go Phil 👍
didn't the original meeting between Der Fuhrer and Porsche occur in 1928, with the first sketches of his rear engine platform design occuring then.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
The flat 4 engine was only meant to be short term solution for the Beetle while they sorted out the bugs in the preferred options (including a 2 cylinder supercharged 2 stroke).
Maybe they got distracted by other events at the time?
what came first, the chicken or the egg
bitten by the bug..........several times
The Egg,
Keeping it real !
silver wrote:The Egg,
and then it cracked...
What my garage isn't messy........Well chaos is a form of order isn't it?
fish26 wrote:what came first, the chicken or the egg
The Rooster came first.
This is my Volkswagen, there are many like it, but this one is mine. Without me my Volkswagen is useless, without my Volkswagen, I am useless.
61 Karmann Ghia 2110cc type1 w Los Panchito's
66 Deluxe Beetle 2270 type 4
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Also I've read that one engine that was tried (for the VW) was an aircooled 5 cylinder radial engine. I've never seen a picture of this , does anyone have one? How would it be fitted ?
ancientbugger wrote:Also I've read that one engine that was tried (for the VW) was an aircooled 5 cylinder radial engine. I've never seen a picture of this , does anyone have one? How would it be fitted ?
it would be fitted in the normal position as it would have had small cylinders , how the air was directed to each cylinder???
I know He tried an engine which He thought was too noisy
cannot remember what it was..
Porsche also designed and raced an electric car that had a motor in each wheel hub- that was very early ..
He also put electric lights all thru His parents house when He was young..
The 4 cylinder engines that He and Ledwinka made may have been both flat 4s but I'm sure they weren't identical..
They were working together.. Porsche design works had a lot of designers.. so whoever designed something whilst working for Him.. I suppose He owned the designs...
I know he had lots of problems getting torsion bars to work
as He had many fauilures..
All His test cars were tested by Gestapo officers... on a track..
only stopped for fuel...
that is all I can remember...
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
i think you are ALL wrong.
it was Herr Flick who designed the Flat four and beetle, the original sketches were found on the rear of the painting 'the fallen madonna with z big boobies'
1954 Beetle
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2004 Turbo Beetle 1.8
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Franz Xavier Reimspiess joined the Porsche team in 1934 and is the man who is credited with coming up the E60 engine design. This is the engine that we know today as the VW flat four.
The only known example of this engine was recently found in Austria It was originally fitted to car VW38/16
66deluxe wrote:fish26 wrote:what came first, the chicken or the egg
The Rooster came first.
😂 ha ha, with a big smile on its dial !!
Adventure Before Dimentia
cock a doodle dooooo oohhh aahhhhh
bitten by the bug..........several times
