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disc brake upgrade

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stewyb Learner Dubber

2 posts · joined Nov 2012 ·

#931846
i have a 65 bug and want to stop a bit better. with disc brakes up frount do i need to change my master cylinder to a duel master cylinder

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#931850
Hi
I don't think You need to buy one, but its a good idea.. [corrected error in grammar]

Drum brakes work OK if everything is working OK..
unless You are driving thru a river or creek.. lol

No Beetle in the USA ever came with Disc Brakes...

even in 1976... so they MUST WORK OK..

You can adjust all Your brakes up.. so they will work better..
check for no leaks or swelled hoses etc..
New brake cylinders aren't expensive..
Your brake linings may be worn down...??
or just need adjusting..

cheers

LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#931859
Yes you need to change the master.


bajachris88 The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 6

6,661 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·

#931865
Dual circuit isn't a bad idea either for safety wise too 👍
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!

vw54 Administrator Always Waiting 4 Friday

16,723 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#931919
yes change the master cycliner o a dual ATE german type

VVDs havea disc conversion set up 02-9789-1777

where are you located
I read it on FACEBOOK so it must be true


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409

psimitar Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,506 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#932056
68AutoBug wrote:Hi
I don't think You need to buy its a good idea..

Drum brakes work OK if the everything is working OK..

No Beetle in the USA ever came with Disc Brakes...

even in 1976... so they MUST WORK OK..

You can adjust all Your brakes up.. so they will work better..
check for no leaks or swelled hoses etc..
New brake cylinders aren't expensive..
Your brake linings may be worn down...??
or just need adjusting..

cheers

LEE
Um, Leigh. All wide 5 Beetles used Drum brakes in the USA same as any other country around the world. It was USA's push for better safetly that made VW change to disc brakes in 67 which is why VW had to go with the 4 stud wheels. 🙂

So being a 65 do you have disc brakes currently or not? Are you running 4 stud or 5 stud wheels?

These things will help answer your question better but the simple answer is that a dual circuit MC won't really make the brakes any better but means they are safer due to redundancy of the 2 circuits. You also have to be careful on the reservoir you use for the new MC as if you have an accident and the insurance company dig enough then they may find the reservoir doesn't comply with ADR. I found this out when I changed from single to dual MC and my blue plate engineer pointed this out.
madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#932111
Hi
But No 4 stud wheeled Beetle ever had disc brakes in the USA

even in 1976..

Only Karmanns had them..

but they all had IRS rear end from 1969> on.. lol

there are a lot of disc brake conversions in the US , even still being converted now..

LEE

PS: Personally, I would fit a new dual master cylinder, as its a good idea to upgrade everything when You are changing to discs.
plus 4 hoses and rear cylinders... LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

stewyb Learner Dubber

2 posts · joined Nov 2012 ·

#932116
I was thinking of putting discs on the front and just want to know what else I needed.
I'm running five stud wheels

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 ·

#932123
psimitar wrote:It was USA's push for better safetly that made VW change to disc brakes in 67 which is why VW had to go with the 4 stud wheels. 🙂
Nah it wasn't.
As Lee said US never even got disc brakes in any bugs and the only reason they got IRS in standard bugs was because of Ralph Nader on his high horse.

It was to try and keep costs down as American and Japanese cars on the US market were making it hard for VW to compete.

sgetty Fahrvergnugen

994 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#932999
I have the vintage vws setup and has been on our 64 for three or four years and really happy with it.

have a big hill (moonby ranges) and can pull up real quick ie going 90-100klm down hill and come round a corner and a truck is low gear doing 40klm
🙂

vw54 Administrator Always Waiting 4 Friday

16,723 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#933006
I was thinking of putting discs on the front and just want to know what else I needed.
replace the master cycliner with a ATE dual circuit and replace all 4 rubber flex hoses

then fit a VVDS wide 5 set up
I read it on FACEBOOK so it must be true


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409

psimitar Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,506 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#933268
sgetty wrote:I have the vintage vws setup and has been on our 64 for three or four years and really happy with it.

have a big hill (moonby ranges) and can pull up real quick ie going 90-100klm down hill and come round a corner and a truck is low gear doing 40klm
You got any details of rotors used, hubs and make of calipers?

I asked VVDS but was never emailed any pictures or info on this kit and would like to know if it's something I'd wanna buy.

Cheers
madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍

sgetty Fahrvergnugen

994 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#933297
I will take some pics for you this weekend but as for the specs best to ask vvds. I think off memory they use commodore calipers.
My memory is rubbish though- too many brewskis. It is well made though and i am running a dual circuit master cylinder 🙂 Any particular picture you would like?
🙂

vw54 Administrator Always Waiting 4 Friday

16,723 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#933997
heres a pic of the VVDS kit

1 attachment · Log in to view

I read it on FACEBOOK so it must be true


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#934003
You MUST change the master if fitting discs. It's all about the different systems having different value risidual pressure valves. The single circuit master when used with discs will actaull keep the disc brakes slightly on ALL the time.

ps, as far as I know, in the US, beetles did not have disc's, only KG's and possibly late Cab's.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

psimitar Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,506 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#934107
vw54 wrote:heres a pic of the VVDS kit
Thanks 🙂 Not a bad looking kit but the cost of changing discs would be quite large compared to a CSP kit.

I can see why it easily passed the engineer inspection but back to the drawing board for me 🙁

Matt - I dunno about Oz but plenty of 70's Bugs came with disc brakes as standard. Obviously no early LP bugs did due to the wide 5 wheels 🙂
madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 ·

#934110
In Oz after 68 it was only the 70-75 pov spec 1300 bugs that were drum front.
All Superbugs, 1500s and 76 beetles came with discs.

Was different in the US though, they never got discs in bugs at all, even the late cabs were still drum.

vw54 Administrator Always Waiting 4 Friday

16,723 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#934145
""" Not a bad looking kit but the cost of changing discs would be quite large compared to a CSP kit. """

I think you had better price the CSP kit its more expensive than than the VVDS

Also the CSP widens the track the VVDs narrows by 20 mm or so
I read it on FACEBOOK so it must be true


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603


http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#934148
psimitar wrote:Matt - I dunno about Oz but plenty of 70's Bugs came with disc brakes as standard. Obviously no early LP bugs did due to the wide 5 wheels 🙂
Not in the US which is where Joel was talking about in prior posts.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

vwo60 Veteran Volks Folk

2,036 posts · joined Feb 2007 ·

#934213
the vintage speed kit use non turbo 944 rotors which are very cheap after market.

psimitar Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,506 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#934237
vw54 wrote:""" Not a bad looking kit but the cost of changing discs would be quite large compared to a CSP kit. """

I think you had better price the CSP kit its more expensive than than the VVDS

Also the CSP widens the track the VVDs narrows by 20 mm or so
The initial outlay may be more but at least changing discs is just a case of grabbing some Wilwoods locally. I doubt the cost of a VVDS hub and rotor casting would be very cost effective.
madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍

psimitar Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,506 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#934241
vwo60 wrote:what about this vintage speed disc brake conversion, do you think it would pass engineering, similar to how i made my front set except i used a four spot caliper.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=795074
That's more like it 🙂 Still need to pass a wide 5 mounting plate with the engineer and probably get rid of those cheap AC Delco/GM square pad sliding pistons. Never been a fan of them and funnily enough te exact same caliper that CSP use in their kit which is the main reason I won't pay for the CSP kit and they won't give me details of the hub and disc clearances to see if suitable for a different caliper plus they don't want to sell the hub and rotor seperately. Fraid I don't waste my hard earned on anything that isn't what I want 🙂
madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍

vwo60 Veteran Volks Folk

2,036 posts · joined Feb 2007 ·

#934301
A friend of mine just had approved a set of front wheel adaptor on his kombi, you take the studs out and bolt them on from behind with 12.9 grade socket head cap screws, the plate has the studs pressed in from behind, the engineer said he could see no problems with them , the other issue with the VVDS kitis the unsprung weight, what caliper is it ?, I think you can buy the vintage speed hub by itself.

Purple Martin Fahrvergnugen

913 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#934352
You must change the master to the dual-circuit kind because:

- Drum brakes have small slave cylinders (the ones at the wheel with the adjusting stars) which only need a small volume of fluid to operate them.
- Disk brakes have big slave cylinders (to push the calipers) which need a larger volume of fluid to operate them.

The older single-circuit master only moves a small volume of fluid (fine for drums) and the newer dual-circuit master moves a larger volume of fluid (necessary for disks).

Fortunately, changing the master is an easy job. If you need a new hard line or two you can get them made for you cheaply at most good brake workshops.

Also change the fluid reservoir (hiding behind the spare wheel) to the dual-circuit kind with two halves and two hoses running from the reservoir to the new dual-circuit master.
1959 red & white Beetle
1975 Kombi camper

psimitar Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,506 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#934367
vwo60 wrote:A friend of mine just had approved a set of front wheel adaptor on his kombi, you take the studs out and bolt them on from behind with 12.9 grade socket head cap screws, the plate has the studs pressed in from behind, the engineer said he could see no problems with them , the other issue with the VVDS kitis the unsprung weight, what caliper is it ?, I think you can buy the vintage speed hub by itself.
Ah ha, so you mean the adapter would have studs pressed in that go through the hub and a nut does it up from behind along with the brake disc?
madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍

vwo60 Veteran Volks Folk

2,036 posts · joined Feb 2007 ·

#934389
The adaptor has five tapped holes the same PCD as the original kombi stud pattern, inbetween these are five new studs pressed into the adaptor, You remove the wheel studs from the kombi hub, fit the adaptor on the front of the hub, and fit the socket head cap screws from the inside of the hub and torque to spec.

psimitar Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,506 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#934604
vwo60 wrote:The adaptor has five tapped holes the same PCD as the original kombi stud pattern, inbetween these are five new studs pressed into the adaptor, You remove the wheel studs from the kombi hub, fit the adaptor on the front of the hub, and fit the socket head cap screws from the inside of the hub and torque to spec.
Well shame the hubs won't fit and LP. I asked them and they said it is only for BJ spindles so bit of a risk buying em to see if they could be made to fit.

On the plus side the porshe 944 discs have given me a different idea on making the 205PCD hub.

I can now go with two designs to the engineer, maybe 3, and see what he says. Lets just hope that 944 discs continue to be made for a good while longer 🙂
madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍

vwo60 Veteran Volks Folk

2,036 posts · joined Feb 2007 ·

#934646
Are you talking about the vintage speed hubs that are used on there link pin disc brake kit, i have seen these hubs advertised on the samba seperate, if you look at the design it would be simple to machine a aluminiun adaptor that would fit over the front of the hub and bolt on from behind before the rotor is attached, the only draw back is the use of the style of caliper that is supplied in the complete kit, but if you want to keep the wide five i think you will have very little choice. If they will not sell you the hub you could reverse engineer they as they would be simple to make.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=795074

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psimitar Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,506 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#934891
Yea, I had a look on the Samba to see if I could find the wide 5 kit from vintage speed but couldn't track it down.

Like you said tho, reverse engineer a wide 5 design is pretty easy now. Just gotta check caliper clearance inside a 15 inch VW steel as the 944 rears have a deeper hat but slightly larger diameter compared to the fronts. Still the lower hat profile can still be used just with the hub mounting point being deeper to allow the caliper to fit below the wide 5 flange.
2 things I have to consider now is if I can only make the hub as one piece instead of the hub and a seperate wheel mounting plate then the wheel flange on the hub will need to be thicker than the steel if I want to keep the unsprung weight down but the main thing is the amount of wastage machining the combined wide 5 flange/hub from a single piece of steel or 6061.
Hmmm, fun 😀
madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍