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Cooling!
Allbones - August 23rd, 2013 at 12:47 PM

So, just reading all about the wonderful would of VW fan shrouds and the like.

I'm curious to know, what fan shroud take up the least space in the engine area? And if the oil cooling is taken care of, is the only other critical item to cool the cylinder heads?

Lastly, if running a horizontal fan setup, would running a turbo above this be detramental to the over all effictiveness of the cooling? (as the hot air would circulate around the turbo before being blown past the heads/block) Or does it make no real difference where everything is in the engine bay?

Thank you :)

John/Allbones

vlad01 - August 23rd, 2013 at 02:09 PM

just get a DTM.

Allbones - August 23rd, 2013 at 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by vlad01
just get a DTM.


dtm takes up too much space, hence the query to smaller shrouds.

I like the porsche shrouds as they have alot of space behind them, but i've read they dont cool evenly, and can be rather expensive.

Bizarre - August 23rd, 2013 at 04:00 PM

Is this for a daily?

Porsche will take up less than a DTM.

horizontal can be done but again not cheap or really mainstream.
Have not seen a daily version - yet

Best would be 36HP style

Allbones - August 23rd, 2013 at 04:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bizarre
Is this for a daily?

Porsche will take up less than a DTM.

horizontal can be done but again not cheap or really mainstream.
Have not seen a daily version - yet

Best would be 36HP style


In my head i'm thinking someting like this FAN! over a shroud like THIS!

The fans rated to 3000cfm, run that with a temp. cut off so as to not over cool the engine. The run a shroud similar to the one linked, but down as clost to the block as practical.

If I ran a set up like that, with an auto cut off run off the cylinder head tempreature, you would be able to keep a pretty consistent tempreature yeh?

I dont really want to go into details about my thinking towards creating as much room as possible in the enigne bay (mainly above the heads), I just want to find out the different ways to achieve it.

*EDIT: fan size will probably be closer to 12", that was just the first link I grabbed*

Governor - August 23rd, 2013 at 06:31 PM

How about the Puma fan shroud they are a bit lower than standard

vwo60 - August 23rd, 2013 at 06:50 PM

I think you will find that the electric fan will not have the capacity of the wide fan fitted to the later engines, the volume of air air increases with engine revs, you can get a 36HP fan that runs this fan,

Joel - August 23rd, 2013 at 09:50 PM

Agreed, you would never be in the situation where an electric fan could over cool a VW engine.

Just about every VW forum has a 10+ page thread on "can I fit an electric fan"
If it worked you would see plenty of them out there, they only work on drag cars which run down the strip for 10secs at a time.

If all you are doing is fitting a turbo its easy to fit with stock cooling,, thousands of people have done it with stock cooling for decades, hell I even still had heaters when I did.

Those flat fans look cool but that belt setup is very power sapping, most Corvair owners will tell you when the belt snaps its like hitting boost.

Allbones - August 24th, 2013 at 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Joel
Agreed, you would never be in the situation where an electric fan could over cool a VW engine.

Just about every VW forum has a 10+ page thread on "can I fit an electric fan"
If it worked you would see plenty of them out there, they only work on drag cars which run down the strip for 10secs at a time.

If all you are doing is fitting a turbo its easy to fit with stock cooling,, thousands of people have done it with stock cooling for decades, hell I even still had heaters when I did.

Those flat fans look cool but that belt setup is very power sapping, most Corvair owners will tell you when the belt snaps its like hitting boost.


The belt sapping power was why I was looking at electric (A standard porsche shroud saps about 8 hp, I think the horizontals sap around 20hp to run).

Looking like porsche shroud may be my answer as to which takes less room (and is viable)

matberry - August 24th, 2013 at 11:14 AM

IMO you don't want a turbo IN the engine bay, preheated air to cool your engine with is not going to work in this country. Imagine a 37deg day when the bitumen is at around 50 deg abd the air is also getting extra warmth/heat from a turbo running at about 800deg in the engine bay.....

For every degree of ambient air temp your engine increases by 4 degrees....

ian.mezz - August 24th, 2013 at 11:55 AM

just put the turbo behind the motor like a Subaru .:blush:

with a low air filter . this one fits under engine lid.
its a lowbugget street motor .:blush:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAXK8j51mpw&list=TLZtDr1NTtgHo 

modnrod - August 28th, 2013 at 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Allbones
Quote:
Originally posted by Joel
Agreed, you would never be in the situation where an electric fan could over cool a VW engine.

Just about every VW forum has a 10+ page thread on "can I fit an electric fan"
If it worked you would see plenty of them out there, they only work on drag cars which run down the strip for 10secs at a time.


The belt sapping power was why I was looking at electric (A standard porsche shroud saps about 8 hp, I think the horizontals sap around 20hp to run).

Looking like porsche shroud may be my answer as to which takes less room (and is viable)


An electric fan will cool fine, as long as you can find one with the right specs. To drive the standard wide fan blade inside a stock doghouse, you need an electric motor that spins to 5500rpm and will draw 16A @ 12V (edited, oops!). No, I haven't found one yet!

The electric fan you listed has 3000cfm into free space, but unless it's drawing 10A and you have one each side it won't have the power needed to provide the engine with the air pressure around the fins for adequate cooling.

That's not to say it won't work, just that you may need a bit of development time and trialling different motor speeds/power to get what you want.

The other option is to consider a flat (eg. Kombi) set-up, but the air inlet to the motor will have to be sealed and of sufficient volume to feed the engine just like stock, perhaps LARGE air runners feeding a sealed airbox at the rear of the engine bay for it to draw from? It would be an interesting science experiment.

benny_acko - August 28th, 2013 at 03:19 PM

Not that I have any technical knowledge to add this this debate (and yes this bloke is racing in the UK) but how would this setup work?

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=102256 

mactaylor - August 29th, 2013 at 02:32 AM

I think richard from vforce was working on a horizontal electric fan setup.

bajachris88 - August 29th, 2013 at 10:30 AM

Far more time consuming and more expensive, but if your desperate for room, you could run a horiz fan via a hydraulic pump and hydraulic motor. Rev of motor will be linear to engine rpm. :tu:

rpm at hydraulic motor generally small, so would need a belt drive ratio pulley setup to bring back the fan rpms.

I was dreaming of running a supercharger like this moons ago. Reeked of effort compared to turbo.

Many people have had good success with using power steering pumps as both the hydraulic pump, and hydraulic motor.

mactaylor - August 29th, 2013 at 05:19 PM

wally run his horizontal fan for yonks with no probs, think it might be one of those things, if you havnt done it yourself it wont work! I had a sawmill with a v belt that ran twisted 90deg for years never had a prob.

vlad01 - August 30th, 2013 at 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajachris88
Far more time consuming and more expensive, but if your desperate for room, you could run a horiz fan via a hydraulic pump and hydraulic motor. Rev of motor will be linear to engine rpm. :tu:

rpm at hydraulic motor generally small, so would need a belt drive ratio pulley setup to bring back the fan rpms.

I was dreaming of running a supercharger like this moons ago. Reeked of effort compared to turbo.

Many people have had good success with using power steering pumps as both the hydraulic pump, and hydraulic motor.


some toyotas already use a fluid driven radiator fan via power steering circuit. perhaps you could use that?

68AutoBug - August 30th, 2013 at 09:52 AM

Air Intake cooling wit Genuine VW FAN SHROUDS

cooling rate with non doghouse shroud and early original fan
1200 engine 530 litres a second 19 cubic foot

1300 engine ratio crankshaft/generator 1:1.8
20 cubic feet or 550 litres per second at 4000rpm

1600 beetle 575 litres a second 21 cubic feet at 4000rpm

1600 type 3 1600 565 litres per second at 4000rpm

these are from numerous workshop manuals

LEE

if different sized crankshaft pulleys [larger] and smaller generator/alternator pulleys were available then the air intake could be increased.. I think the doghouse wide fan could work with a slight difference of revs.. as they work with high revving engines - over 4000rpm.. so, at 4000rpm no worries..
but I haven't heard of different sized pulleys excepting the so called power pulleys which decrease the volume of air..
these would come in handy at 35-42C temperatures
My thoughts.. LEE

Bizarre - August 30th, 2013 at 06:19 PM

3000 CFM is well short then

2.12 L/sec to CFM

The figures above are Cubic Feet per Second