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Bay Bus Framerail radiator pics please

dlrecord - October 28th, 2010 at 08:31 AM

Hi all,

Newby from Colorado, USA. I am installing an EJ22 in my 1979 Bay and plan to place the radiator between the frame rails. I am interested in seeing any pictures of airdames, air scoops, gourney flaps, vents, custom shrouding, etc. that anyone has made up for their conversion project to redirect airflow up and through the radiator placed between the framerails.

Thank you in advance!

dlrecord - October 28th, 2010 at 08:36 AM

Here is a link to myconversion project for anyone interested in following along (could be slow though!).

Subaru 2.2L conversion project
http://1979vwconversion.blogspot.com/2010/09/start.html

ElusiveStranger - October 28th, 2010 at 09:40 AM

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=38417&page=1

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=46532#pid644414

You'll have to have a good gander through both threads. Bloody good reads

A few photos on this thread:
http://www.vwkd.co.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=16

Inane Cathode - October 29th, 2010 at 03:45 PM

Hey dlrecord, i'm also in colorado. I've got an ej22 in my bug, maybe we can meet up some time. Where abouts are you located?

ian.mezz - October 29th, 2010 at 03:49 PM

yeah you only need a small radiator and just make sure you scoop the air over the top of the radiator and out the bottom towards the road. and have no gaps around ducting , You can buy pool noodles from a pool shop to fill in any caps as they can be push into caps and they dont hold water.

my small ej20t bug radiator
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=67455

these are handy to.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=86429

dlrecord - October 29th, 2010 at 10:59 PM

Elusive Stranger, thanks for the thread links. I hadn't seen either of the two in my previous searches. Definitely great reads and many good new ideas! Does anyone know if Custom Veedub still makes their throttle body reverser pipe? I sent an email but no reply yet...

Inane Cathode, I am, in Erie. I would love to see your bug and maybe even get a few tips from you on my project. I may be looking for a custom fabricator in the area if you know of any.

Ian, I am planning to run a custom aluminum radiator 20"x28" with twin puller fans and full shroud. I am intending to box in and build a vent scoop to channel the air up and through the radiator and out the top and back.

ian.mezz - October 30th, 2010 at 08:25 AM

yeah a bug is a bit different . I just have air flow going out the bottom as its 100c deg and I dont want the bottom of my car heating up and the air flowing under the car at speed draws the hot air away. :blush: my rad it about 12x22

ElusiveStranger - October 30th, 2010 at 11:31 AM

Quote:

I may be looking for a custom fabricator in the area if you know of any.

My theory:
1/ Custom rads look and sound kewl
2/ Stock, modified rads are cheap as chips. Get a hole in one & evil-bay really or a scrappy "wrecker's yard" is your friend. XJ-40 rads are around 40UKP 2nd hand

Make the scoop to fit a stock rad (+ simple mods) & you're laughing

BTW 2nd hand Jag pumps are great as fuel pumps too. CBA to search for the part #.

Top load pusher fans. I'm running one 16" or so. Works a charm (UK based). Only comes on on the M25 (Biggest car park in Europe

)
Blow it up, stagnant air, not going anywhere, hot loading bay floor - not in any cooling system;s favour
Have your fresh air in at the top, blow it out the bottom. Damn more efficient.... blow it down, leave it on the road, you left it behind

GeorgeL - October 31st, 2010 at 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ElusiveStranger
Top load pusher fans. I'm running one 16" or so. Works a charm (UK based). Only comes on on the M25 (Biggest car park in Europe

The aerodynamicist's reason for the blow-down radiator arrangement:

Slow moving air has low pressure, fast moving air has low pressure (the Bernoulli effect)

When you scoop air up into a plenum, such as a boxed-in area between the frame rails, you reduce its speed and therefore increase its pressure. Placing the radiator between this higher-pressure air and the higher-speed flow beneath the bus causes a natural downward flow through the radiator.

The common sense folks say "heat rises" but then the question is "where does it go after it rises?" The Bernoulli effect is far stronger than natural convection. Make it your friend.

dlrecord - October 31st, 2010 at 03:14 PM

This is good stuff. Learning more everyday!

So I am hearing: channel the fresh air up in front and then on top of the radiator into a box of sorts and let the fast moving air below pull the fresh slow moving air down and out. Bernoullis principle (completely different then the approach Custom Veedub took with their radiator box...).

Also, I should switch from puller to pusher fans. Easy enough. Any other considerations to take into advisement?

dlrecord - November 20th, 2010 at 04:29 AM

Hey all,

Another question specifically with Subie conversions in a bay:

How are people setting up heaters? Aftermarket or used? What make/model are you using if used? Both front and back, or single set up?

Any info/details are appreciated!

ElusiveStranger - November 20th, 2010 at 07:00 PM

T3 rear underseat heaters work a charm. I they're similar to the early Golf/Polo (in UK) ones. Pipe diameters match the Scooby nicely too.
Stolen from Hansend's photobucket although this is in a limo bug it'll give you an idea. He's blocked the orig plemium chamber.
I'm running a lash-up, Alfa matrix, 4" bilge fan chucked in an MDF box between the cab seats.

Whatever you do, you must ensure you have flow from the Engine water out to the 'stat in - the 2 x 15mm steel pipes on the block. Failure to do so will goose your engine.
You can add a by-pass valve. Search and you will find.

dlrecord - December 29th, 2010 at 05:38 AM

Elusive Strager,

I am taking your advice and have sourced and secured a Vanagon rear heater assembly. I may try to find a similar assembly for the front heating/defroster!

Anyone have any experience with the old Landcruiser FJ55 front heaters? They look like they might be a good option for the front end...

Happy Holidays,

-Dan

General_Failure - January 4th, 2011 at 10:19 PM

Heater in a type 2? Surely you kid.

dlrecord - January 5th, 2011 at 12:29 AM

Heat and A/C...in a Bay!

Jealous yet? :-)

General_Failure - January 5th, 2011 at 07:41 AM

Damn straight I'm jealous.
But i guess to have that stuff I first need to have a setup that works.
I'm having a bear of a time recently.
The radiator won't fit between the frame rails properly for a start. I figured out it was because the rails were bent to hell. Fixed that with some stilsons and a lot of swearing. still won't fit because of the wiring loom tube and the clutch tube. When I get a chance I'm clearancing the side of the radiator with an angle grinder to fit around the wiring tube. The clutch tube though... I dunno. I might have enough wiggle room after the side has been freed up.

Things that should fit won't. And now the lack of a properly functioning carburettor. I just want to get this finished so I can do the tidy up and go for a blue slip.

ElusiveStranger - January 6th, 2011 at 05:45 AM

With the EJs just be careful how much heat you dump through the matrixes. Have a search for bypass valves on here and other sites.
I don't know how cold it gets where you are but it can get problematic in colder climes - bypass valves sort that.

General_Failure - January 22nd, 2011 at 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ian.mezz
yeah you only need a small radiator and just make sure you scoop the air over the top of the radiator and out the bottom towards the road. and have no gaps around ducting , You can buy pool noodles from a pool shop to fill in any caps as they can be push into caps and they dont hold water.

This has been eating away at something in the back of my mind for ages.
First questions: Would this pose registration problems? Ie inspections?
What about water pipe insulation? That'd probably fit around some things neatly to form seals.

It also made me realise that between the top of the rad and somewhere needs to be blocked. My choices are: put something from the top of the rad to the rear crossmember, and seal the holes in the crossmember somehow.

Seal from the top of the rad to the floor using pool noodle or whatever, and deal with the shift rod rubbing.

make a cowling for the top of the rad, which while it would be effective would be a nightmare to make clear everything. As it is I'm carving chunks out of the support bits on the sides of the rad to make it fit.

In a type 2, before anyone asks.

dlrecord - January 26th, 2011 at 02:40 AM

Alright, another question off topic but related to the subie converstion:

The rear engine cross bar. I am using the Small Car mount system and have a Vanagon style rear bar that I am modifying for the Bay. My question is in regard to the actual functionality of the rear engine support bar. Is the bar's primary purpose to supprt the weight of the engine or to help support side to side movement and vibrations?

I ask because if I place a jack under the oil pan and slowly raise the engine, I don't see any sag or engine movement upward by itself. In otherwords, the bell housing and upper cross bar seem to carry the entire load of the engine. When I slowly raise the engine, the frame rails start to raise as well. This leads me to believe the the rear engine bar really doesn't support the weight of the engine but rather provides mostly lateral support.

Is this correct? I want to make sure my modifucation to the rear cross bar still allow it to do its primary job.

Thanks,

-Dan

Inane Cathode - January 26th, 2011 at 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dlrecord
Alright, another question off topic but related to the subie converstion:

The rear engine cross bar. I am using the Small Car mount system and have a Vanagon style rear bar that I am modifying for the Bay. My question is in regard to the actual functionality of the rear engine support bar. Is the bar's primary purpose to supprt the weight of the engine or to help support side to side movement and vibrations?

I ask because if I place a jack under the oil pan and slowly raise the engine, I don't see any sag or engine movement upward by itself. In otherwords, the bell housing and upper cross bar seem to carry the entire load of the engine. When I slowly raise the engine, the frame rails start to raise as well. This leads me to believe the the rear engine bar really doesn't support the weight of the engine but rather provides mostly lateral support.

Is this correct? I want to make sure my modifucation to the rear cross bar still allow it to do its primary job.

Thanks,

-Dan

Having JUST done this myself heres how i look at it:
The mounts on the top of the trans holds the WEIGHT of the trans and engine while sitting. Maybe a little weak for that but they should be fine. Of course the instantaneous weight when you hit bumps will be much more than that.

You're not worried about the weight though, you're worried about the engine trying to twist/worry its way out of those mounts. If you put in 140ft/lb of torque into the bus, 140ft/lb of torque will go from the bus to the trans/engine, much more than that if you let the clutch out too quick or hit bumps.

Heres something else, ever see the engine in a beetle when it's accelerating? The motor dips way down in the engine compartment as a reaction to the torque going out the wheels. In a bus, the engine and trans will want to rotate backwards out of the engine compartment every time torque is applied through the wheels. This might be alright once or twice but imagine what 10k miles of twisting back and forth on those trans mounts will do

Hope that helps !

Oh, btw, i'm also doing a westfalia to subaru conversion myself. Have you seen my thread, dl?

EDIT: Heater stuff

If i can beat the dead horse a bit more i have some things to add on the heater discussion. I have a t3 rear heater in my beetle with a homemade plenum/valves to direct it to the defrost, right, and left side vents. I'd say that its about %50 of what i'd like in the coldest weather. It doesnt have hot enough output at the vents (probably due to going through narrow corrugated hoses that act like heat sinks), and not enough blower volume (the blower wheel is just too small).

It's passable in a beetle, and even good working in nicer climes (when i say cold i'm saying 0-10F) but i dont think it'd cut the mustard in a bus. Maybe one matrix for each side in the front, but if you're going to that length i'd say you could fab up your own heater system, i intend to. I'm planning on putting a heater blower/box from a subaru (nice somewhat unitized design) and finding an appropriately sized heater core. I cant think of a way to get the heat into the stock heater ducting without it being in the way on the floor, or having a bunch of heat sucked out through the ducting (closer it is to the output the hotter it will be).

dlrecord - January 26th, 2011 at 05:28 AM

Alright, that pretty much aligns with my uneducated thinking as well. So the rear cross bar really provides support for engine torque, which translates into twist. The rear bar will limit the twist via the rubber mounts and the support between the framerails, but I don't really need to worry about exact vertical arrangement of the bar and the engine and the frame rails. If I am off a tiny bit in bar height (top of bar hits bottom of framerails and is about an 1/8 of an inch lower then the engine rubber mounts; snugs up when all nuts are torqued down) I won't suffer a diasterous catastrophy, correct?

Re-the heater: I am using a rear under seat Vanagon (US model) heater assembly and have purchased Tom Shiels' thermostate housing spacer to ensure the thermostate is getting the proper readings. I may need to eventually add a second heater for the front features, i.e. defrost, but am going to run with the set up now. See my Blog for any pictures and placement ideas.

Inane, can you send me the link to your conversion thread? I'll see if I can track it down through your profile as well.