| [ Total Views: 6625 | Total Replies: 56 | Thread Id: 100349 ] |
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 fullnoise
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| posted on January 13th, 2013 at 06:47 PM |
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Do committees ever design anything good?
Rene, Matt, Colin and others have me thinking FK87.
Here's the combo update. I can still liquid paper it out and change it.
2165cc
78mm crank
Stock length H beam rods
Engle K87
10.5:1 CR
New 94mm mahle pistons and cylinders
44 x 37 wedgeports (Not ultra wedgeports) 50cc
48IDAs on short manifolds.
1 5/8 exhaust
Hey Adam,
Are you talking about your current hillclimb car? The one from the Legend of the Lakes Hillclimb?
I saw your old orange hillclimb beetle at Valla one year. I will never forget it. It was off-tap. It went hard. What a weapon. I remember you saying
it had a K8 in it. I've always wondered about that. I've never seen any other K8 engine go like that! Mine certainly doesn't. Do you change the cam
timing or do something special. If my car went like that I wouldn't relegate the K8 to an iPad weight.
CYA CT
esratrams
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vassy66T1
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| posted on January 13th, 2013 at 09:39 PM |
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I think the combo can work well IMO
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debiasi4
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| posted on January 14th, 2013 at 06:44 AM |
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Yeah that's my current green car. I did try a fk87 in that engine. That was when I had lower compression as I was doing Tarmac rally's at the time.
It made a couple more hp but had less down low, which I need as my car is heavy. I've been thinking about putting a bit more cam in it now I'm not
doing the rally's and I think it would work well with the higher compression.
The orange car was set as per the cam timing card. But had a great set of Henry spicak heads which made great hp. 130 hp at the wheels from a 1915
cc
Cheers Adam
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cnfabo
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| posted on January 14th, 2013 at 09:23 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by debiasi4
Yeah that's my current green car. I did try a fk87 in that engine. That was when I had lower compression as I was doing Tarmac rally's at the time.
It made a couple more hp but had less down low, which I need as my car is heavy. I've been thinking about putting a bit more cam in it now I'm not
doing the rally's and I think it would work well with the higher compression.
The orange car was set as per the cam timing card. But had a great set of Henry spicak heads which made great hp. 130 hp at the wheels from a 1915
cc
Cheers Adam
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Hey Adam, we think u should put a camera inside your car so we can watch the mental driving from in there too
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 14th, 2013 at 12:17 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
Here's the combo update. I can still liquid paper it out and change it.
2165cc
78mm crank
Stock length H beam rods
Engle K87
10.5:1 CR
New 94mm mahle pistons and cylinders
44 x 37 wedgeports (Not ultra wedgeports) 50cc
48IDAs on short manifolds.
1 5/8 exhaust
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if you're thinking about using the fk87 maybe use a longer rod to keep piston speed down and less friction/load on the sidewall of the
barrel.......and use a JE or wiseco piston with the 1mm top ring to help stop ring flutter in the higher rpm range.
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colin
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| posted on January 14th, 2013 at 12:50 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
Do committees ever design anything good?
Rene, Matt, Colin and others have me thinking FK87.
Here's the combo update. I can still liquid paper it out and change it.
2165cc
78mm crank
Stock length H beam rods
Engle K87
10.5:1 CR
New 94mm mahle pistons and cylinders
44 x 37 wedgeports (Not ultra wedgeports) 50cc
48IDAs on short manifolds.
1 5/8 exhaust
Hey Adam,
Are you talking about your current hillclimb car? The one from the Legend of the Lakes Hillclimb?
I saw your old orange hillclimb beetle at Valla one year. I will never forget it. It was off-tap. It went hard. What a weapon. I remember you saying
it had a K8 in it. I've always wondered about that. I've never seen any other K8 engine go like that! Mine certainly doesn't. Do you change the cam
timing or do something special. If my car went like that I wouldn't relegate the K8 to an iPad weight.
CYA CT
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I have been reading this post with great interest.
There are some excellent thought well worth considering.
Rod, that's motor sounds like a sweet street engine I reckon my wife would love driving that, congrats on a great build.
I like we're your going with the above Combo CT. my I suggest wiseco pistons they are so pretty.
Also 40mm vents with the IDA,s will give you nice punch in the mid range with the
Fk87. You will have to measure the total lift with the rockers on before a final decision is made with cam as it may calculate out more than the
advertised lift on the cam card. I know my cam measured 610 with my heads and rockers.
It,s so nice to read a post about a very touchy subject and no-one is slagging on anyone but just trying to help out, maybe the yanks should read this
post.
Ps,
On holidays at the moment loving it.
Cheers
Col
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sander288
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| posted on January 14th, 2013 at 05:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by colin
It,s so nice to read a post about a very touchy subject and no-one is slagging on anyone but just trying to help out, maybe the yanks should read this
post.
Cheers
Col
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Yeah the only person wanting to have a stroke is CT!!!! 
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RodPenrose
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| posted on January 14th, 2013 at 06:42 PM |
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CT , I would go with the larger 80mm or 82mm crank as when you get up to these sizes , the cranks are all the same price . If you are worried that the
engine will be too wide , The 82mm stroke with 5.4" rods will require a .060 shim to obtain about a good 1.25mm deck height . With the heads you have
you will have to drop about 11 cc out of the chamber by removing around 3mm from the seating surface to obtain a compression ratio of 10.0 . Therefore
the engine is a little narrower than std . The FK 87 cam is really good , however with a 1.4 rocker you will be giving the springs a real hard time .
You will have to up-grade the springs to something like the Bugpack or the CB 650's . I had Pauter do a cam for me that was an FK 87 spec , but on
104 centres , pulls real hard in my circut engine . The 78mm stroke and 5.4 rods will cause you to either deck the case a lot or shorten the barrels
to get a tight deck . The wedgeports would be more suited to a bigger capacity , however once you start talking 150 + @ the tyres , you are now
getting close . Dont expect it to drive like the engine you have now because it will need a heavier clutch , larger exhaust maybe and a good external
cooler for the oil . You will have to concider trying to get more air into the engine bay as well . I would drop the Mahles off the list as well ,
ROD.
More boost + More fuel = More power
1968 Beetle fastest run 8.96 sec @ 161 mph 4th Nov. 2001
2010 New Beetle 8.12 sec on 8th march 2014
http://www.rodpenroseracing.com.au
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 14th, 2013 at 09:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
Yes I would agree the wedge port is too big.
Those ports coupled with 9000rpm are for a racing engine.
The CB Pro Gas class in the US uses these heads with just
good manifolds, a flycut for compression and
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Dave, you mentioned 'good manifolds'.......are they not using the big beef ones that are matched to the heads from CB ?
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hellbugged
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| posted on January 14th, 2013 at 10:02 PM |
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Hee hee....now you need better pistons, longer rods, heavier springs and larger exhaust And a range of venturi's to move the delivery around
Pushrods to match the decked case or shortened barrels, new clutch, bigger pressure plate.....
Wedgemating.... Titanium..... Udo becker
Which bits do you already have CT?
...... All because a little bug went ca-choo!
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vassy66T1
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 07:05 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hellbugged
Hee hee....now you need better pistons, longer rods, heavier springs and larger exhaust And a range of venturi's to move the delivery around
Pushrods to match the decked case or shortened barrels, new clutch, bigger pressure plate.....
Wedgemating.... Titanium..... Udo becker
Which bits do you already have CT?
...... All because a little bug went ca-choo!
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Yep
What you plan to do and what you end up doing ... 2 totally different things (in my experience anyhow)
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dangerous
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 08:18 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
Yes I would agree the wedge port is too big.
Those ports coupled with 9000rpm are for a racing engine.
The CB Pro Gas class in the US uses these heads with just
good manifolds, a flycut for compression and
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Dave, you mentioned 'good manifolds'.......are they not using the big beef ones that are matched to the heads from CB ?
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Even the match ported manifolds are a restriction.
Rule of thumb is a gradual taper(in cross section)
from the throttle to seat throat.
The seat throat being the ideal place for the minimum-area-point.
If the minimum cross section is in the manifold,
the engine will be limited by this size.
(hence the peak power rpm with wedgies mostly between 5500 and 6500) depending on many things.
(you can fuge it with variuos factors though)
But more importantly, as the charge enters the head,
the large cross section and chamber causes a reduced air speed, meaning you have less cylinder fill than if the same minimum area was at the seat
throat in an ideal situation.
This is why some small valve engines go surprisingly well.
The seat throat is smaller than most manifolds out of the box.
...and by chance you get increased air speed as the charge makes its journey
The truth is that even a 1600 with autocraft heads will still run well, with the correct tuning and cam choice.
But better, would be matching a minimum cross section within the valve seat
for your desired power-peak-rpm for your engine size,
and then build in the gradual taper(porting) from throttle to valve seat (and in the chamber to!)
which will give a much more rewarding result.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 09:28 AM |
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Yep, realise all that......so what manifolds are they using ?
Are they reworking the big beef or are they using a completely different manifold to start with?
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 matberry
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 09:33 AM |
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Craig, IMO and the way I read what Dave has said is those supplied manifolds either need work or replacement
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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bat69
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 09:50 AM |
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Hi CT, what a very interesting read. I love it. I think a big banger VW engine in your car would be tops. Congrats in advance for the build. In
relation to cams/engine combo. Choose a cam / combo which best suits your driving style and what your car is going to be used for with whats going to
give you the best reliability. Especially if you are still going to drive it to the track, work, shopping etc.
White Knuckle Racing Team
"Drive it like dirt"
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sander288
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 11:22 AM |
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could always get the flow figure for the heads and manifolds etc... and get a custom grind cam; Ivan Tighe has this service I'm sure
http://www.tighecams.com.au/
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mactaylor
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 01:37 PM |
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so maybe a set of custom westside manifolds with the wedgeports?
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
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matberry
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 01:58 PM |
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^^ done something similar on a race build.
I wouldn't go 82 as the price may be the same but is the longevety, bigger than 78 needs type 4 centre main/s IMO
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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fullnoise
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 05:17 PM |
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I prefer 78mm over 82mm because it sounds a hell of a lot easier to build. Would it also be more revy? Or do the other components like rod length
(longer) and cam / head combo have more influence over how many revs it pulls?
Thanks for the measurements Rod. My case has been decked. I think I'd do a trial fit with the super race rods i bought from you and see what the deck
height is. I may choose a longer rod then.
As for the oil system. Well. I had to draw a diagram to keep track of it. If my memory serves me correctly the oil leaves the engine out the back of
the oil pump. It goes to a JayCee filter bypass above the gearbox. Over pressured oil gets directed back into the side of the Pobjoy sump. The other
oil, at 80 psi max, is pumped past the rear torsion bars and under the passenger side running board. Then it goes up the front into a half size messy
cooler (or is it Messa?) which is mounted at a 15 degree angle under the fuel tank where the master cylinder would sit if it were on the left. It gets
direct air under the apron and between the torsion bar and doesn't seem to get hit by rocks or gutters or bent by flexing components. Then it
journey's back to the engine eventually. It's too complicated and needs a spare full flow pump with a drill mounted to it to prime. Maybe the
JayCee bypass needs to be mounted lower. Somewhere like of the #4 header studs.
Where was I? Oh yeah.
I have a nice Exedy clutch pressure plate (It's painted purple where nobody can see it!) and my exhaust has always been bigger than I need. The
headers are classic berg 1 5/8 ceramic coated and the muffler is 2 1/2 inches by West Side Mufflers. Both will suit the proposed combo better than the
current one.
No need to sell the first born for extra parts yet Daimo.
I've seen how the big beefy manifolds are ported an inch from the bottom into the manifold and then the porting stops. Both my IDF an IDA manifolds
I've had welded up so I could port them myself to ensure they were a funnel to the port. I'm considering getting a serious weld job done on the
short Scat Trak manifolds I have now in order to make them work with the wedgies. If I was cheque book racing I'd buy some CSP short manifolds.
Speaking of Ivan Tighe. I might get him to regrind some standard lifters for the FK87. That's always worked for me. Are people still having problems
with new lifters?
Tell me some more about ring flutter Craig. What RPM would that become and issue? Are there any telltale signs? Would Wisecos solve the problem as
opposed to Mahles?
What's a good flywheel weight? Anyone? I'll have to get a new one. I think my Sabadusi crank has quite a unique dowel pattern.
Thanks again everyone for all your comments.
CYA CT
esratrams
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cnfabo
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 06:25 PM |
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in regards to the lifters ct the cb lightweight are supposed to very good, right taper and compatibility with not just cb cams....no need to spend
big$$ on uber "udo"beckers "daimo, lol..." stan told me they are a great lifter.....
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colin
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 07:03 PM |
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Dave Butler did a real nice job for me on a flywheel CT.
He is the man for any machine work.
As far as revving is conserved Jeff Unwin had a 78mm crank engine that winked at 9000rpm.
Cheers Col
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 07:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
I've seen how the big beefy manifolds are ported an inch from the bottom into the manifold and then the porting stops.
Speaking of Ivan Tighe. I might get him to regrind some standard lifters for the FK87. That's always worked for me. Are people still having problems
with new lifters?
Tell me some more about ring flutter Craig. What RPM would that become and issue? Are there any telltale signs? Would Wisecos solve the problem as
opposed to Mahles?
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CT, have you tried the wedgeports on your current engine combo ? Nathan Abbott had a 25-30hp jump on his motor when the wedgies were installed, and
his motor was around the same HP as yours currently is.
re the big beef manifolds:
I have 3 sets from CB (to match my sets of Wedgeports) and 2 have been fully CNC ported ALL the way through while 1 set was just match ported. The 2
that have been CNC ported are obviously a lot bigger through the middle than the 'matched only' ones....Clearly they don't all leave CB looking the
same.
Re the lifters: IMO don't use a cam ground on a SC1 billet....it will kill lifters. Use a Ep12 CWC billet with the tighe or CB lightweight lifters.
All the CWC cams I've used haven't given any probs........ALL the SC1 cams (regardless of lifter brand) I have used have chewed the lifters.
Ring Flutter: This can occur with high piston speeds (large stroke/short rods).......so it really depends on your rod ratio as to how high your piston
speed is at a certain engine rpm. There's heaps of info and out there so do a google search and have a good read.
Wiseco and JE have an option of a 1mm top ring, so that is a step forward in helping with the problem.
Here is an article from Total Seal, so maybe they have a ring option for the Mahles ??
http://dragracingonline.com/technical/vii_9-pistonrings-1.html
I'm no expert, but I hope it all helps !
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55slug
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| posted on January 15th, 2013 at 07:28 PM |
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My .02 Nz pesos... I ran a 2442 with ultra wedgies and an fk87. Compression was at 10.5:1, pump gas, 32 degrees total advance, no issues. With the big
stroke it didn't need revving ( changing at 6500) and made the on or off cam feeling almost non existent. This combo made an honest 200 hp, no orange
county factor involved. The longer stroke is definitely hard on the centre main, but the torque is awesome !
On clutches, I ran a stage 1 and darken disc and was running 1.6 60 foots with this, full weight oval with a back seat, and I'm 115kgs so not
lightweight in anyway. Your experience may vary !!
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fullnoise
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| posted on January 26th, 2013 at 07:27 AM |
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Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm looking forward to the build. It should be far more exciting than adding a relay to the starter motor circuit
which I just did. I should have done that years ago.
Happy Australia Day.
CT
esratrams
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colin
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| posted on January 26th, 2013 at 02:48 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm looking forward to the build. It should be far more exciting than adding a relay to the starter motor circuit
which I just did. I should have done that years ago.
Happy Australia Day.
CT
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Cheers legend,
or should i say Dad, now thats nice, the first time they say dadda, cool as. 
Cheers Col
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 26th, 2013 at 09:41 PM |
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first time they say "go faster daddy" when they're in the back seat is even better
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 2nd, 2013 at 08:58 PM |
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Any updates CT......although I'm sure the little one is sucking up your time !
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