| [ Total Views: 967 | Total Replies: 23 | Thread Id: 22189 ] |
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 bullyboy
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 09:03 AM |
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1916 vs type IV motors
If I had money (?), what would people recommend for the fastest, most reliable, driveable street engine:
- type I (1916 or bigger, webbers etc)
or
- the type IV with conversion kit.
It's to go in a ghia.
cheers BB
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Che Castro
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 09:29 AM |
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hehe this topic could start a shitfight
a type 1 will be cheaper, and easier to build and install into a ghia. It's a proven solution and you can get big power
a type 4 will be more difficult and expensive, you have to figure out a cooling system, get a custom exhaust etc. but will probably last longer.
if u have the $$$ go type 4. although there is little that can beat a 1916 for bang for buck.
[Edited on 26-4-2004 by Che Castro]
Jon
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twoguns
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 09:33 AM |
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2110. 
Simply Cruzin'...
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 10:13 AM |
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Both can be reliable,both can be streetable,both can produce high HP .
the type 1 will have less external mods to make it fit e.g. fan,exhaust... etc
My opinion: I would build a type 1 and use the new aluminum cases for strength.........................then again a big bore T4 sounds good !
The build quality is an important factor.
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Daniel
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 10:13 AM |
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If you have the money go for a T4. Get a ride in one (or if you're lucky, drive one) and you'll know what I'm talking about.
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 helbus
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 10:44 AM |
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What about a Subaru motor?
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BiX
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 11:09 AM |
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Iam not sure which is cheaper and both have their advantages, it depends on exactly hi modified you want to go, eg 70 to 100 hp, 100 to 150hp, 150 to
200 hp and 200+hp
Persoanlly for a 70 to 100hp the type 1 in 1916 would be the way to go while a stockish type 4 2L would probably alos be and option if you oly want
80hp
then again 100 to 150hp startlooking at strokers or 1916 type 1's
150hp plus your looking at big money and probably either will do, while 200+ hp probably ahev to go type 4.
but it also depends on who builds it and for what purpose, eg fast street car, weekend race car, or ace etc.
I know of a few 1776's that eat soem 1916's alive. They come from 2 different shops in brissy. One builds good perfoamnce engines while another
builds ok engines
well to answer your question quickly, whatever you want and can afford!!!
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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Che Castro
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 02:50 PM |
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the type 4 is usually more expensive, but it will last longer. The type 1 aluminium case is no match for the stock type 4 case. The type 4 has
through bolts , All (bar one or two which costs an absolute bomb) of the Aluminium T1 cases have studs which eventually pull out of the case from high
power applications.
The type 4 case has bigger main bearings, is a proven design, has a factory oil filter. The Aluminium T1 cases have been known to have poor
machining, distributer shafts in the wrong place etc. although this is only early days with aftermarket street style t1 cases.
The T4 is limited now in peak power by the factory heads as there aren't really any popular aftermarket heads that are available and relatively
affordable unlike the t1. Price up a T4 piston set, lifters, cam, stroker crank, etc. it gets pricy.
A suby motor is a good alternative if you're that way inclined. 200HP from the EJ20T and massive scope for more power. you'd just have to spend
some $$$ to get a tranny to handle it 
Jon
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56astro
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 02:58 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Che Castro
The type 1 aluminium case is no match for the stock type 4 case. The type 4 has through bolts , All (bar one or two which costs an absolute bomb) of
the Aluminium T1 cases have studs which eventually pull out of the case from high power applications.
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Ya sure that's right?
Do you mean the magnesium alloy T1 cases?
I was under the impression the new aluminium T1 cases HAD through bolts.
:o
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 03:03 PM |
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mmmmm and I have purchased three new aluminum cases and none have had probs with machining or quality !
:jesus
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Menangler
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 05:30 PM |
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If you build a type 1 engine with all the right goodies it will give you very good performance and value for money, and the weight of the engine will
be right for your car and won't upset the handling.
A type 4 engine is a fair bit heavier than a type 1 engine. and there would be cooling issues if fitting into a Ghia, depending on fan housing used.
True type 4 cases are very strong with through bolts ans all, but I have never seen a case bolt pull out of a mag case before, a few 10mm head studs
maybe!!
As for fitting a Subie engine, :cry this is for a Ghia!
FAHRVERGNUGEN;
Description of a pleasurable sensation,
Experienced when a car and it's driver are in mutual harmony, A unique driving experience, Pleasure, Satisfaction,
A feeling experienced by Volkswagen Drivers.
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 Peter Leonard
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 06:17 PM |
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from a money point of view, go the 1916
from a reliability point of view, both are on a par (depending on where the 1916 and the T4 are from)
from a complexity, parts availability and buggering around point of view, 1916 wins
from cost POV, 1916 wins hands down.
from power POV it depends if you want a stump-puller or a speeder. t4 for stump puller, 1916 for speed.
my money's on a 1916. in case you hadn't figured that out yet
let sleeping dubs lie
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johny rotten
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 06:28 PM |
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from my point of view , go larger ,u can not beat cubes
from a durability point of view use small bore / large stroke
from a cost point of view , if u want to pay peanuts u get Monkeys.
from a HP point of view go big
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AdrianH
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 08:17 PM |
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T4s are expensive to build. T1s are not as expensive but if you want to make reliable hp they arent cheap.
If you go type one, stroke it and spend a lot of money on a really good set of heads that are matched to the combo you run. There is more work in a
stroker but in my opinion it is worth it. The new alloy case out of CB and Bugpack (they are different) has a raised roof, you can run up to 86mm
strokes without clearancing the case further (doesnt have through bolts). 86 x 94 sound appealing ???
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Che Castro
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| posted on April 27th, 2004 at 11:58 PM |
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the first few batches of aluminium aftermarket cases had lots of problems from what i've heard, but they aren't as proven as the AS41 case. They
don't really solve a lot of the weaknesses of the T1 case anyway.
None of the aftermarket T1 cases have thru bolts, except for the scat 3 piece case, and another one that i cant remember the name of. Porsche went
to thru bolts for high performance. For most applications the T1 studs are fine, but for the upper echelon, they aren't enough. I mean the other
weakness is that it only really has 3 main bearings that support the crank, there are 4 rod journals on either side of the no 2, this with only studs
to hold the case halves together is a bit weak for a high power engine.
The t4 does weigh a little more, although u can shift the tranny forward to compensate. They also have a larger oil capacity, so you have less
problems with oil starvation/sump clearance.
Dave and the others are right though, least fiddling and best value for $$$ is type 1. The 1916 though, they are cheap and they can cane it. Not too
pricey, its an easy build with cheap and plentiful parts. chuck in a stroker and some more $$$ and the engine should come alive
[Edited on 28-4-2004 by Che Castro]
Jon
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 09:58 AM |
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Tranny 'shifted forward' in a Beetle/KG. Riiiiiiiight...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Che Castro
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 10:23 AM |
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maybe i shouldnt have used the word shifted. you flip the banana mount backwards, and you have to cut out the firewall and fab up one that sits back
a bit (for a beetle so you can get to the back of the engine). Although I think there is probably more room behind the engine to start with in a ghia
so it's probably not needed. By doing this you gain an 1 1/2 " or so. It balances out the weight issue.
Jon
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 10:34 AM |
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what about the CV angles of beetle CV's when you relocate the gearbox, any hassles?
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Che Castro
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 11:59 AM |
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the suspension travel is a lot more movement than 1 1/2 inches. The front mount you use a berg intermediate so you just move it forward to suit. the
shift rod needs to be shortened, but thats about it.
I've never seen a case stud pull out either like a cylinder/head stud, but what i was trying to say was that a stud threaded into a soft mag case
isnt really all that strong to support a big ass stroker crank putting out a lot of power over a long period. Its bound to give a bit.
the Type 4 bottom end is bulletproof. the main bearings on even type 1 engines are quite large compared to other engines - and the type 4's are
chunkier. The stock rods are chunky but pretty heavy.
[Edited on 28-4-2004 by Che Castro]
Jon
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 01:04 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Che Castro
I've never seen a case stud pull out either like a cylinder/head stud, but what i was trying to say was that a stud threaded into a soft mag case
isnt really all that strong to support a big ass stroker crank putting out a lot of power over a long period. Its bound to give a bit.
[Edited on 28-4-2004 by Che Castro]
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I was refering to the new Aluminum cases (same material as T4) not the replacement soft mag cases that you can buy new.
[Edited on 28-4-2004 by Craig Torrens]
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Che Castro
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 04:13 PM |
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Aluminium is still soft, and the aftermarket aluminium t1 cases still hold the case halves together with studs, not bolts, it relies on the strength
of the threads to support the rotating mass of the engine.
Jon
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56astro
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 04:31 PM |
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Through bolts ??
http://www.precisionalloy.com/pages/tf-1.html
"Strong 12mm through-bolt design"
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 05:31 PM |
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there are several 'alluminium' aftermarket VW cases being made these days. not all have 'through bolts'
[Edited on 28-4-2004 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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AdrianH
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 05:43 PM |
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You can make over 200 hp in a T1 case without throughbolts, I cant see why anyone would be that anal about it.
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Jeza
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 06:37 PM |
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Wow, 56Astro that case is insane!!!
Interesting that they are using 10mm headstuds, any comments
I wonder what sort of value it goes for.
That little man in your signature is pretty scary too 
I'm sure Joe Cali in his upright conversion manual (for T4 into bug) notes that a converted T4 wieghs about 20 - 25 lbs more than a T1. Some of the
new alloy cases and lots of flash aftermarket bits must come close to adding up to that (ie a 1916 etc)?
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
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Che Castro
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| posted on April 28th, 2004 at 07:28 PM |
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yeah thats the case i was talking about that costs an absolute bomb. Its a nice case.
You can make lots of power out of a t1 without through bolts, but how often will you have to tear the engine down, to replace bearings, rings,
cylinders, etc. It's a lot of fiddling! 
I admit that I am anal though
hehe, the 10mm headstuds are cool
Speaking of weight differences, how much more does a big arse exhaust, dual 48 IDAs and linkages etc. weigh compared to a stock setup?
Jon
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