| [ Total Views: 5520 | Total Replies: 18 | Thread Id: 91131 ] |
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 tweety
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| posted on June 19th, 2011 at 11:55 PM |
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Rotary 13b onto type 3 auto box
Have Panther trike. there could be issues to insert a Subaru reverse pinion auto gearbox into the trike due to length issues. if so another idea.
Keep the type 3 auto box. change engine to a Mazda rotary 12a or better 13b engine if new ADR's allow ?????. My understanding is that rike weights
were abolished.
for example- suitability.
VW type 3 ratios 1st 2.65, 2nd 1.59, top 1:1, F-drive 3.67
RX-7 3 spd auto 1st 3.45, 2nd 1.45, top 1:1, F-drive 3.91
apart from a low 1st gear the rotary would be spinning at similar revs. meaning 3,200 at 100kph- likely very comfortable revs for that motor.
Rotary- modern, compact, hopefully economical with 550 kgms tare plus 450kgm tow weight (van) total below RX7 tare weight, easy conversion. If
successful can keep the VW slushy, cheap conversion
What are your thoughts? also your knowledge of new ADR rules?
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tweety
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| posted on June 19th, 2011 at 11:59 PM |
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seagull
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| posted on June 20th, 2011 at 01:37 AM |
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1) That motor set up will get you killed when the power comes on
2) why don't you buy a type 3 auto box dead or alive be alive & get it stripped , then send the crown wheel & pinon to Albins Gears in
Australia and get a ratio set cut ?
3) The shape of the crown wheel & pinon teeth don't have to be as VW made it, they just make the valid gear ratio ( IMO your looking for a 3.9
ratio ) ??? work in with what the machine can fit in the area / space available on the pinion/ crown wheel.
4) Its worth asking on here for a Type three box, some one will have one cheap & walking in the door at Albins and laying it on the counter.
5) have you looked at fuel injection on the VW motor ? I have seen the simple Denco removed from a $50.00 holden camira > read issues with ECU ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Camira
I machined the electronic dizzy from a Rx7 to the vw shaft. Humpty is p[laying with fuel injection here in Perth
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tweety
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| posted on June 20th, 2011 at 08:53 PM |
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Thanks Seagull- you are full of ideas. As you cans ee I look outside the square also.
I think I should go the easy way first. Seek out a EJ22 and adapter and install. tow van for a while to see how it feels. if a taller gearing is
desired (yes upwards 3.9 as you say not the other way) then will check out the final drive options.
the Ej22 seems to have the lower rpm for max torque. Am I correct in choosing the 22 as the most odeal Subie engine for the trike...I think your red
one had that motor yes?
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seagull
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| posted on June 21st, 2011 at 12:20 AM |
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You will use double the fuel with the Type 3 auto box & a ej22
My trike a EJ20 quad cam ( non turbo ) look in the bus section for the post I just did on this motor found in a van.
The biggest issue you face with the ej22 is there now getting quite old & some would be facing head gaskets. IMO your best to look at the damage
auctions and find a late Gen 2 liberty that has been hit up the bum. That way you get every thing you need.
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tweety
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| posted on July 3rd, 2011 at 01:37 AM |
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Picked up a ea81 engine complete with radiator etc reconditioned 80,000kms ago for $800.
Need an adapter and electronis distributor (very worn shaft). It was the mechanics own delivery vehicle but the body was too far gone (Brumby) and
someone want the gearbox.
Thanks for your advice guys.
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ttriebler
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| posted on July 3rd, 2011 at 09:32 AM |
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Ewwww an EA81 with a worn distributor! What was the point of that? IMHO you now have a motor that is hard to find parts for, needs work, needs a
cooling system added and is barely better than the aircooled Volksy you have now. Plus you need an EA adaptor plate which is not common.
Sorry to rain on your parade but i think if you are going to make a change you need to go with something more modern and reap the benefits. A modern
ej20 or ej22 with efi and 4 valve heads will give you nice torque, easy running and cruising and great fuel economy. Plus you can easily get parts for
them.
Just my 2c for what its worth.
Reversed gears for Subaru transmissions.
Fit a Subaru 5 speed to your rear engined car
www.subarugears.com |
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seagull
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| posted on July 3rd, 2011 at 12:07 PM |
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You will not get good economy fitting a ej20/22 with type three auto, due to the final drive ratio
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ttriebler
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| posted on July 3rd, 2011 at 03:30 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by seagull
You will not get good economy fitting a ej20/22 with type three auto, due to the final drive ratio
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Indeed...but an EA81 won't get good economy either.
Hence why the OP and I were originally talking about fitting a reversed 4 speed or 5 speed subie auto. We decided that it would need extended trailing
arms to get the driveshafts relatively straight as the subie auto is a bit too long and would sit on top of the torsion bar (i.e. not fit) if you
tried to use std trailing arms.
Given the difficulty in this, he thought maybe a rotary that likes higher revs might be better suited to the 3 speed VW auto because of the final
drive.
There is a mob testing a 3.3 final drive in the USA - I'd be looking into that for a type 3 auto.
Reversed gears for Subaru transmissions.
Fit a Subaru 5 speed to your rear engined car
www.subarugears.com |
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General_Failure
A.k.a.: Tristan
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| posted on July 7th, 2011 at 05:39 PM |
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Give me the EA81 then  I'm ready to throw mine in the river.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on July 7th, 2011 at 07:53 PM |
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on a trip I used 7Lper 100Ks in my 900kg ej20t bug and nobody past me up the hills. 
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Joel
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| posted on July 7th, 2011 at 07:58 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by seagull
You will not get good economy fitting a ej20/22 with type three auto, due to the final drive ratio
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Will still be 100x better than a 1916 with IDFs
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ian.mezz
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| posted on July 7th, 2011 at 08:02 PM |
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ASK LEON
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0fFS-USoUw&feature=view_all&list=PLFA...
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mackaymanx
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| posted on July 7th, 2011 at 08:27 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ttriebler
There is a mob testing a 3.3 final drive in the USA - I'd be looking into that for a type 3 auto.
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This final drive is for the 010/090 automatic and will not fit the type 3 003 automatic
Quote of the week
"Do I wish to send them to you again, nope, no interest can't be bothered really, to much hassle for little or no return."
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powerband
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| posted on July 8th, 2011 at 06:37 PM |
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I am in the middle of building a trike. I have already bought the type 3 auto box. So what type of motor would you go for if I want to stay with a
carbie? Would some type of V6 be okay or something entirely different? Thank you Paul.
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tweety
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| posted on July 9th, 2011 at 08:15 PM |
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Good replies guys. As some would have read, I've got a recoed EA81 to mate with my type 3 auto and in other pages have explained my reasoning for
such an engine eg simplicity, proven, it was available to me, have aqcuired a new electronic dizzy and weber etc etc.
I can used the reverse auto from Subarugears (and thanks for your patience and info there) if I get the alloy monocoque fuel tank modified to allow
about 140mm extra length of the Subie auto. Its an option at a later date I can think about.
Building trikes is an art form. C of G for a rear engined trike is just forward of the passenger, around the centre of the transmission. My trike new
without the roof had 56kgms downforce on the front wheel, much more than many others. Oz trikes is far less, some only 5 kgms, two finger lift!!!!.
The occupants alter that of course when they ride it. So a V6 is really out of the question as is a Rover V8 etc. I've researched this extensively
mainly because I like being different hence the rotary thought but it isnt my thing-
So designing a trike engine wise with the type 3 auto in my view you have a limit on engine type. The following is a guide
- whatever engine you choose needs an adapter or one will need to be made. Of course far easier if one is off the shelf. Google John Sherman Volks
Conversions and he has 120 adapters to fit the VW bell housing.
-torque point is critical for an auto. You wont want to have to use it as a manual eh. Assuming the Vw aircooled has is max torque at 2600-2800 rpm
most engines arent in this range. EJ's are around 3200 upwards, the EA81 is at 2400- this makes them ideal. (I'm not saying the EJ wouldnt be a
good choice though because they are likely to have as much torque at 2400 also just not their max torque)
-you cant ignor water cooling radiator location issues. A while back I purchased two larger tyres 275/60/15 instead of the standard 295/50/15 common
on the rear of vW trikes. This gave me longer legs, not much longer but better in every gear of about 5%. It alos raised the rear of the trike a
little. Panther trikes have air bags so raising the trike is easy (as long as camber range is ok). I am confident I can fit an under belly radiator
not unlike the many kombi conversions in these pages. Or two small radiators each side of the ladder bars where the passengers feet sit.
-Engine mounts. The trike frame should be made for these in mind so engine choice before frame build is advised. The Panther for example has alloy
monocoque as mentioned as their chassis design, the Oz trike tubular I think. Extra torque/power your engine might put out will determine its need for
mounting.
-Finally if your budget is huge you can remain air cooled and install a V-twin. Its already been done in the US extensively. Google Rewaco Las Vegus
(not Rewaco Australia, they are not affiliated at all) and you'll see a beautiful Harley powered trike and I beleive they have VW trannies. Google
Trikes Australia and go to the gallery and you will see a Harley rear engined trike with a whopping 110ci S&S trike. That guy told me that over
the last 10 years he has had to work on it to remove vibration- a problem with V-twins. I'd suggest, as he does, that a "B" Harley engine is the
go. "B" for balanced. But an engine will set you back $6000 plus adapter from the states (Rewaco) plus fitting etc etc Then depending on your body
design you'll need fans to cool it. They get real hot at the bottom of the motor. A large oil cooler etc.
-Engines suitable inlcude---Air cooled V-twin, VW, Front wheel drive engine/trans unit (eg the engine/trans out of my Hyundai i30 turbo diesel would
be a rocket!), Subaru, SAAB V4 (rare and old but excellent low torque and very light and compact), Alloy Jap engines like Mitsubishi Galant 1600 or
1800 (adapter available), rotary, Can am trikes use Holden cruze petrol engines in line 4's but are longer in the body so in line 4's are ok but be
careful many Toyota engines have cast iron blocks.
Seagull and others have been of great help with advice. His idea is to get the final drive altered so the revs drop significantly. I reckon 3-500
rpm. Another option. I personally find the type 3 auto ok. By todays standard they are crap but I dont mind- it does its job and I dont want to take
my hand off the bars to change gears.
The above trike was converted to type 3 auto due to the owners health issues.
Be aware that some engines might put out too much power to the weight. The 450 kgms weight limit in ADR's was abolished in Jan 2011 hence a flood of
overseas trikes weighing more than that will start soon. Building a trike? Get a well communicating engineer in my view, someone willing to be in your
corner every step of the way.
Hope I've been of help. You can PM me if you need more info. I know of a talented trike builder in Wallan Vic that could be of help.
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seagull
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| posted on July 10th, 2011 at 01:51 PM |
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Have you a phone number for the blond ?
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tweety
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| posted on July 14th, 2011 at 06:57 PM |
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you devil you Seagull
No I havent...and she tightened my nuts without a wrench....
She was a model for a documentry being filmed. they interviewed me but I dont think it will air.
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seagull
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| posted on July 14th, 2011 at 07:36 PM |
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a Model pifft
she would be hard work any way
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