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 vwo60
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| posted on February 25th, 2013 at 11:17 AM |
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Narrowed beam
I thought i might post my findings on the removal of a narrowed beam and the installation of a standard width beam in my ghia, since i bought the car
fitted with the narrowed beam i have been collecting and planning the change out, the ghia was fitted with a set of 16' x 6" fuch's on the front
with a ET of 36MM, this put the car way over the allowable track if used with a standard width beam and disc brake conversion that was fitted
The beam was narrowed 50MM to fit the wheels and tyres under the guard, when you narrow the beam to fit a wheel with the incorrect offset you
still have the remaining issue of the loading placed on the suspension, simply narrowing the beam may give you the track you need but it is still has
the same loading as if it is 50MM over track, it is the relationship between the center line of the wheel and a line drawn through the center of the
ball joint's/king pin thet interects on the ground.
That is the concern and should be concidered in any wheel purchase, the term scrub radius relates directly to this, i tried to maintain as
close to standard as possible when building the new beam and ordering the new wheels, one of the problems on the narrowed beam was the increase in
bump steer and the tram linning under brakes as well as the wandering on the road, when i pulled the narrowed beam apart the inner trailing arm bushes
were worn very badly, i will atribute this to the excessive loading caused by the incorrect offset of the wheels that were fitted to the car.
The new standard width beam was built exactly the same as the narrowed beam, same shocks, same size sway bar, same size torsion bars, set up
the castor the same along with the same ride height, the exception is the wheels that i fitted, these are 17' x 6" composite wheels fitted with
195/45/17 tyres, these replaced the 16" x 6" fitted with 205/50/16.
What a revelation when you drive the car, no more tram linning at speed or under brakes, turns in conciderably better without nosing into the
corner, it rides a lot better aleviating my fears about fitting the 17" rims to a link pin front end , effectivly both sets of wheels had/have the
same track dimention but the difference is in the offset of the wheels, a total change of 25MM in the scrub radius has totally changed how the car
drives.
Before you concider narrowing a beam think the engineering time that was invested in it's disign, alot of people change the very things that
make it what it is and simple changes alter the fundimentals, look at ways of altering the wheel offsets or purchasing wheels what do not alter the
geometry outside the standard configeration and you will be rewarded with a vehicle that handles well and is safe to drive with the added bonus that
it is legal.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on February 25th, 2013 at 11:24 AM |
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Did you try your new wheels with the narrowed beam, to get a direct baseline comparison ?
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vwo60
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| posted on February 25th, 2013 at 11:46 AM |
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The narrowed beam is not the issue, it is a symptom, it is the fitment of the incorrect offset wheels to the vehicle that causes the problem and the
band aid approch of narowing the beam to accomodate them, the scrub radius is the problem and as stated and this is what i have corrected on my ghia,
if i fitted the new wheels to the narrowed beam they would have rubbed on the inner guard and i would have a reduction in track and still have the
beam which is illegal, one of my main objects is to meet the engineering requirement so i can insure it correctly.
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 matberry
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| posted on February 25th, 2013 at 12:09 PM |
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Shayne, not trying to argue as I agree intirely with what you have achieved, BUT not all dropped spindles are created equal, I have fitted some
'customer supplied' units that suffer from extreme symptoms as described, and others that perfom faultlessly. There are some with some odd design
features of modified steering arms and as you describe, excessively increased scrub radius. The other point to consider is, not everyone wants custom
wheels of limited choice.
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vwo60
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| posted on February 25th, 2013 at 04:16 PM |
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you can have the simple steel wheel modified to do the same job, as i have said, nothing has changed except the scrub radius, this is the point of
changing the ET, every thing else is a constant.
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on February 25th, 2013 at 04:56 PM |
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Unfortunately some people just want the "LOOK" Doesn't matter how much engineering jargon you throw at them, they want what they want. Engineers
also made the following, Titanic, Hindenburg,the shuttle o-rings, asbestos brake linings, the atomic & hydrogen bombs etc, etc. Mechanical
failures are way down in road toll statistics compared to speed & alcohol. And engineers are still designing faster cars and better brewing
techniques. Go figure. The future is promised no man, so live & let live. My2c
P.s congrats on your successful outcome.
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
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Smiley
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| posted on February 25th, 2013 at 05:31 PM |
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The other thing that narrowing a beam affects is your Ackerman angle.
Smiley 
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 25th, 2013 at 05:45 PM |
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Just buy a strut bug...
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vwo60
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| posted on February 25th, 2013 at 07:48 PM |
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Do they make that in a karmann ghia.
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ragged
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| posted on February 25th, 2013 at 11:47 PM |
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This post is far too technically correct. Why are you bothering to talk common sense? Maybe I'm just getting old, but all anybody cares about
nowadays is how it looks.
I'm not looking for an argument,(but I know I'm going to get it) but was it the engineer that caused the Titanic to sink, or was it the driver or
the speed?
The Hindenburg, was it just an accident waiting to happen, or a poor attempt at parking?
"O" rings on the shuttle! That was not the only problem they had to over come.
Asbestos brake linings aren't available anymore. It took a long time to withdraw asbestos from manufacturing, but the health affects will be with us
for a long time. Sadly, compensation from responsible corporations will take even longer.
Atomic and Hydrogen energy is not the problem, it's how it is used. The main thing is all of the above disasters discovered short comings in design,
attitude and the importance of making an economical profit.
They are designing faster, safer and more efficient cars. There are even cars out there that have a price tag that is more money than some people will
earn in a life time.
I think the problem is that some people think you can do what you like, but do not understand the knock on effects that some simple change may make to
steering and suspension.
I just hope that it's not you in your car that one day hits a pothole in the road, that you don't see because it's full of water and then your
vehicle veers to the left and drives through a bus stop full of people on their way to work or school.
There are reasons why you need to be qualified and licensed to work with electricity and gas. But unfortunately, anybody can work on a car!
Feeling the love...Dave xox
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vwo60
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| posted on February 26th, 2013 at 09:44 AM |
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Well said Dave, if it is worth doing, it is worth doing well.
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steve burgess
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| posted on February 28th, 2013 at 03:03 PM |
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Nice wheels and good to see someone doing it the right way.
1956 judson supercharged oval
1975 kombi camper
1976 kombi panel van
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on February 28th, 2013 at 05:13 PM |
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Ah..... the brotherhood  has come to a colleagues defence.
Anyone can have children too! maybe we should regulate that as well. Did someone say fasicts? And regarding the regulated power & gas/water
qualifications. That is so the learned colleagues can change pensioners $65 to change a tap washer or flick a circuit breaker back on. Maybe I am just
cynical. Strange how they always use the bus stop full of people or the bus full of children in their validation. Emotional argument defence. But good
on them if they can charge $130 + p/hr to help the great uneducated people of Australia. Cheers to them all. My2c
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
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psimitar
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| posted on February 28th, 2013 at 11:24 PM |
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Totally agree with VW060. Unfortunately, for someone who is wishing to fit disk brakes to his KP beam a narrowed beam is about the only way to allow
for the increase in track that the discs will create.
If I could keep things closer to std I would.
Ragged - As for anyone can work on cars. Anyone can work on water/gas/electric. Most of it ain't rocket science but back to cars, anyone may be able
to work on them but for them to be legally insurable and certified to be on the road is a different matter. There are no guarantees in life anymore
cos you never know if someones actually going to do a proper job no matter how much you pay them 
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
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vwo60
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| posted on March 1st, 2013 at 08:24 AM |
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You can easily modify your standard wheels to make allowance when you fit a disc brake conversion without narrowing the beam and introducting all the
other complications that go allow with it, on a link pin front end with a wide five conversion there is no gain in track and on some kits there is a
reduction in track with others, if you go to a four stud conversion then there is a gain, but again you can rectify the change in scrub radius by
altering the wheel, luftmeister if you want to comment about the work i have done that would be great and would be open to any debate, but the issue
of legallity is a real consideration when modifiying your car and should be discussed in the forum, i can see the reason why electricians and plumbers
are licensed as a lot people will just jump into work that requires a lot of knowlege and experence they do not have, as for working on a car, i think
that motor mechanic's should come under the same requirements to be licensed as they are also responsible for people's lives including working on
buses and trucks, in my trade i am qualified but there is no licensing system, as i work on machinery that has serious life threatening consequence if
i do not carry out the task correctly i would be open to a licensing system for my trade that would eliminate any cowboys.
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1303Steve
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| posted on March 1st, 2013 at 08:57 AM |
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Hi
This is an interesting subject. Anyone who modifies a car from standard realizes that every modification is a trade off from what a stock car does.
Whether it be reduced ground clearance, turning circle, harsher ride etc.
When I do a modification to my car I expect to see and improvement in one respect and maybe something in another area not as good as standard car.
I can't see any benefit in a narrowed beam apart from the "LOOK".
Steve
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vwo60
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| posted on March 1st, 2013 at 10:56 AM |
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As you have said it is a balancing act, if you weight up the modifications and understand the implications of the modification other mods can be
undertaken to offset the problems that are generated, wheels are a major problem if they change the geometry, with carefull consideration i think i
have achived a major improvement without any problems, i hope by posting my experence other people will look at what some experts will sell/modify and
learn enough about what is recommended to make a educated decision about what impact it has and question what is being done. SibastienPeek this post
also applies to strut bugs as well, after all this hobby in my opinion is about doing it or learning how to do it your self.
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Klaus
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| posted on March 2nd, 2013 at 07:11 AM |
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haha this is great ..pipe n slippers must have been on sale again ...was about to run a stock width beam in my next splitty project but i've seen the
light and will be running a 5 inch narrowed one instead ..
Whats the rotating mass difference between the 17's your running compared to stock rims as the poor link spindles bearings arent as big as
commodore ones that the rims are normally found on ?
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vwo60
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| posted on March 2nd, 2013 at 07:38 AM |
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Thats great, i don't have any slippers and have never thought of a pipe, bearing are timkin ball joint bearing's, the wheels are custom made 6" x
17" composits that weigh 2KG less the the Fuchs and the semi slicks that have been removed, the track is only 18MM over standard so any increase in
load is reasonable, if you wish to debate all the issue's you will have by running the 5 inch narrowed beam and the strategy you will have in place
to offset these problem please do, Can you please lets stick to the technicial side of the discussion.
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on March 2nd, 2013 at 11:24 AM |
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Hush Puppies and being safe are important  . As stated before (but
conveniently over looked) speed and alcohol feature way more than mechanical failures in the road statistics. As an engineer (?) you know very well
that ALL ecu controlled cars can be governed to never go over the national speed limit in any situation. Why doesn't the government regulate that?
Because every manufacturer in Australia would be up in arms as well as buyers. People do not want to be controlled by a central power no matter how
safe they want to make you. If you have to explain ART (the look) to someone then they will never get it. My2c
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
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bajachris88
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| posted on March 2nd, 2013 at 12:37 PM |
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But hey... if it worked for the reliant robin... 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiB9N2nTimE
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
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vwo60
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| posted on March 2nd, 2013 at 07:03 PM |
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The discussion is not about alcohol or speed and art is in the eye of the beholder, it is purly a question of the engineering envolved in any
modification, it is that simple. what sound engineering was used to achive the "look", your right about the hush puppies but do they come in a steel
cap,
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hrastovica
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| posted on March 29th, 2013 at 04:42 AM |
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For a Buddhist perspective on beam selection visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_way
"In this sutta the Buddha describes the middle way as a path of moderation, between the extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification. This,
according to him, was the path of wisdom."
I'm smack bang in the middle of this process, deciding which way to go with my beam, ride height, wheel selection, tire selection etc and to be
honest it has been a massive tug of war between my head (the "rationalist") and my heart (the "outlaw"). The rationalist says "dont change
anything unless it improves the car" and the outlaw says "slam it on its ass and narrow it by 6).
VW60, while I understand what you are saying about putting on a stock beam, I believe discs, drop spindles and a narrowed beam coupled with modern
wheels and tires will handle HEAPS better than the original set up.
On the other side of the coin, narrowing the beam aggressively would have a negative impact on handling and comfort (although it looks freakin
awesome). So I've finally decided to go with a healthy (albeit responsible) "middle-way" between my head and my heart, with an adjustable 2"
narrowed beam w/ needle roller bearings, wide 5 discs, drop spindles, shockers at their original angle and narrowed sway bar... this will NO DOUBT
handle HEAPS better than the original set up that the engineers intended and still give me a nice look and ride, with enough room to play with wheel
and tire selection and of course ride height.
This argument also depends on how and where you plan to drive the car, so I reckon that both sides are correct in their own way and in my personal
case the middle way is a good choice.
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matberry
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| posted on March 29th, 2013 at 09:23 AM |
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Good post hrastoica. I did exactly that and IMO my bug drives beautifully and doesn't look too bad either
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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vwo60
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| posted on March 29th, 2013 at 10:10 AM |
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As i said in my original post, it is about changing the scrub radius to fit wheels with the incorrect offset, the narrowed beam is just a symptom of
that, increase the offset 20mm and you change how the car handles and reacts to road imperfections, i have just returned it to standard width but have
paid particular attention to the scrub radius, major improvement in handling along with a increased life in the moving parts of the suspension, plus
it is a pleasuer to drive.
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hrastovica
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| posted on March 29th, 2013 at 02:27 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Good post hrastoica. I did exactly that and IMO my bug drives beautifully and doesn't look too bad either
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Doesn't look bad? That looks freakin awesome!
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on March 29th, 2013 at 04:34 PM |
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Shame about the scrub radius thou.........  
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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matberry
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| posted on March 29th, 2013 at 05:14 PM |
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^^ Refer to my first post in this thread, there are various
types/brands of dropped spindle available, some better engineered than others. Maybe they are still a compromise, but not everyone wants custom offset
wheels.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on March 29th, 2013 at 06:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by LUFTMEISTER
Shame about the scrub radius thou.........
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There's no spacers and the offset of the rims look the same as a standard one, so the scrub radius would be the same as a stock setup 
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vwo60
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| posted on March 29th, 2013 at 07:24 PM |
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As i said when you go back to a better set up it is quite a improvement, i also have noticed over time form over function seams to be popular
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