| [ Total Views: 8223 | Total Replies: 25 | Thread Id: 104037 ] |
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 pfillery
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| posted on November 11th, 2013 at 08:12 AM |
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V6 Kombi conversion (existing) - any thoughts on issues etc?
Looking at a new tow vehicle and have spotted a V6 converted bay kombi.
Obviously there are lots of mods for engines like subaru etc but never heard of a commodore V6. My first thoughts are strain on the gearbox,
overheating etc. But given that commodore V6 motors are cheap as chips to replace if it ever goes wrong, it seems like a smart conversion. Been in for
a few years going by the plate.
I would imagine the engine wouldn't work as hard being bigger, any thoughts from the experts here?
Mods I know this is an engine conversion question but I felt I would find more response in the general section than the minimally frequented alternate
engines section, so if possible can it stay here?
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vlad01
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| posted on November 11th, 2013 at 08:42 AM |
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imho best engine ever! I have 4 engines of my own.
200-$500
make any where from 170-220hp and 300-370Nm stock, although the factory SC version is heavily de-tuned so Holden could sell the V8 models as the V6 SC
would leave it for dead if tuned properly, it should make about 280hp 470Nm stock, low boost 300-500+hp reliably plus 500Nm+ ~ to boot.
last typically 300,000- 600,000km, boosted provided its tuned right doesn't really make much difference to the life.
parts are easy to get, number of people who rebuild them properly, not that you need to.
Full real time ECU tuning and heaps of support and software, base tunes and people who know what they are doing when tuning them.
economical, in a commodore they range from 7.6 to 6L/100km on highway at their best. I would expect it to drop somewhat in a kombi, being heavy and
big.
They fit really well in a kombi.
disadvantages. bit heaver that a suby. range from 190kg for pre ecotec to the later ecotec weighing in at 178kg.
you will need one hell of a gearbox.
advantage torque! heaps of it! 90% of the torque is available at 1200rpm and peaks at 3600rpm I know they pull hard from 1000rpm to about 4k for the
older engines.
I would do it. do it do it!
check out this beast > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_e65LRo1h4
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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newghia
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| posted on November 11th, 2013 at 12:41 PM |
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Indian automotive has been running a suprcharged V6 in his dual cab bay for years ,
Maybe search him / it, or give him a call
Nath
Step up to get out !!!
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vlad01
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| posted on November 11th, 2013 at 01:12 PM |
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It great no brainier conversion. I find it hard to believe its not common in kombi?
They are a very popular conversion engine for just about every other old car.
I have seen them in Gemini, Torana, HQ, FJ, Datsun, Bluebird, hot rods, Nissan skylines, Nivara, hilux and even recently in a 90s BMW 320i
71 notchback,
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nils
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| posted on November 11th, 2013 at 02:07 PM |
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UN5 GEARBOX should sort you out 
Quit calling rust patina
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pfillery
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| posted on November 11th, 2013 at 03:14 PM |
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Aparently running a 2 litre kombi box. I guess there are always options there like different boxes, fitting LPG etc etc.
Only downside is the extra stamp duty and rego costs ($200 a year more or so) but considering I've been looking at other sixes, this isn't a huge
issue.
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vlad01
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| posted on November 11th, 2013 at 03:22 PM |
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I had no idea what that was til I googled it, hoy cow! that looks beefy
looks like the UN1-07 has the closest to the perfect ratio for buick V6.
diff needs to be around 3:1 (stock Holden is 3.08:1) but anywhere to 3.45:1 is good (better for heavy kombi)
topgear needs to be between 0.65 and 0.8 for optimal cruising rpm. you want them to cruise at 1800-2200rpm at 100km up to 2500 is ok but economy
will start to suffer from there
"Alpine Turbo
UN1-07
3.36
2.05
1.38
0.96
0.76
Rev 3.55
Diff 3.44"
stock Borg Warner T5 commonly used with the V6.
"V6 Ratios
First: 3.25
Second: 1.99
Third: 1.29
Fourth: 1.00
Fifth: 0.72 "
71 notchback,
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modulus
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| posted on November 11th, 2013 at 05:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pfillery
... given that commodore V6 motors are cheap as chips to replace if it ever goes wrong, it seems like a smart conversion...
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So by now you should have worked out that the place you'll be pouring money is into the gearbox and diff. You'll spend quite a bit on either "the
gearbox" (wait till you find out the price of a decent Renault UN5 or Porsche G50, plus installation mods.) or on "the gearboxes" as you go through
an endless series of Kombi boxes. There's nothing wrong with this conversion if you go into it with your eyes open. If you buy it because "commodore
V6 motors are cheap" you will have a guaranteed unsatisfactory experience.
Have you considered e.g. a Subaru EJ25 with a Subaru gearbox and reversed crown wheel?
hth
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vlad01
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| posted on November 11th, 2013 at 09:39 PM |
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you could use a suby box. most people that have done this conversion use a build up 6 rib kombi box, although the ratios are not idea. They are strong
enough.
also worth considering a type 3 slushbox. They are strong as hell, custom torque convertor to suit the super low down torque and you're flying.
PM, me if you want more details on the engine, requirements, engine management, wiring, cooling requirements etc. The requirements are simpler and
less demanding that suby conversion apart from gearbox.
71 notchback,
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roverv8bay
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| posted on November 12th, 2013 at 08:28 PM |
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G'day all. I'm collaborating with a well known gearbox conversion company to develop a v6 & v8 adapters to suit Todds subi boxes will be going
to Sydney to chase up the design & feasibility of the swap. so if anyone is interested let me know. also looking at different engines o suit
customer.
ernie
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 helbus
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| posted on November 12th, 2013 at 09:07 PM |
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Ther is also Albins gears available for the 2 litre boxes. They are available locally. They are stronger, handle massive torque and many ratio's
available.
Also a Kombi is a lot lighter than a Commodore, not a heavy vehicle. They do have more wind resistance at high speed though.
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vlad01
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| posted on November 12th, 2013 at 09:25 PM |
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isn't a bay 1800kg?
71 notchback,
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helbus
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| posted on November 12th, 2013 at 09:48 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
isn't a bay 1800kg?
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nope
A bay Kombi is about 1270kg. A Microbus is a little bit more, and the Panel and utes are less again.
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pfillery
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| posted on November 12th, 2013 at 09:53 PM |
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And considering the same car was powered by a 1600 engine at the smallest, putting a bigger motor generally means less work for the motor.
I'm surprised though because the biggest engine size in a bay is 2 litre, how do you get a 3.8 engineered to fit? Isn't it usually 20% above in cc
is allowed?
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vlad01
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| posted on November 12th, 2013 at 10:09 PM |
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Good point on the albins gears. That turbo v6 kombi on youtube runs albins 2L box
that about the same as a VN and VP
between 1250 and 1350 depending on model options.
official specs say VN exec auto 1311kg
an exec manual weighs 1250ish Kg.
VP unknown
VR exec auto 1362 Kg
VS exec auto 1385 kg
71 notchback,
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vlad01
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| posted on November 12th, 2013 at 10:12 PM |
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wtf happen to half my post? it was there a min ago!
god I hate the unreliability of this forum.  unbelievable!
71 notchback,
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helbus
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| posted on November 12th, 2013 at 10:12 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pfillery
And considering the same car was powered by a 1600 engine at the smallest, putting a bigger motor generally means less work for the motor.
I'm surprised though because the biggest engine size in a bay is 2 litre, how do you get a 3.8 engineered to fit? Isn't it usually 20% above in cc
is allowed?
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You can get your vehicle engineered as per your state requirements.
Our bus was engineered with 2.2 Subaru with all legal paperwork easy.
If you want a 3.8, speak to an engineer.
The 2.2 Subaru was in a heavier vehicle from factory and has proved itself for over 20 years. It fits well, and is similar size and weight to the
original engine. I suppose that is why it is poular. Plus you are still using a horizontally opposed 4 engine.
Personally I prefer the exhaust sound of a Subaru H4 to a Commodore V6 also.
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vlad01
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| posted on November 12th, 2013 at 10:26 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by roverv8bay
G'day all. I'm collaborating with a well known gearbox conversion company to develop a v6 & v8 adapters to suit Todds subi boxes will be going
to Sydney to chase up the design & feasibility of the swap. so if anyone is interested let me know. also looking at different engines o suit
customer.
ernie
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are you planning to use the existing flywheel?
Dellows conversions already make a billet replacement flywheel to suit any of the engines.
they need to be the correct one as they are counter balanced on the flywheel and also indexed correctly on the crank.
manual versions of these engines are quite rare(all mine are manual  ), later models almost non existent. however, Dellows do the flywheels for all of the V6, even models that never had them from factory.
Dellows also make adapters and their own bell housings for conversions of sorts.
Worth looking into.
71 notchback,
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vlad01
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| posted on November 12th, 2013 at 10:34 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
isn't a bay 1800kg?
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nope
A bay Kombi is about 1270kg. A Microbus is a little bit more, and the Panel and utes are less again.
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what my point was going to be before the forum randomly erased half of my text in my post after it was already posted
Is that the bay will be almost the same weight as the commodore the engine came from. Once the engine is installed it will be a little heavier than
the commodore. Either way the performance and drive ability will be fantastic.
The VT onward were all of the sudden heavy about 1650kg
VN-VS were between 1250 ish to 1385kg, interestingly lighter than many of the suby cars of today.
The kombi in question has VR engine and 2L box. Good combo who ever built it. has much potential for improvement.
71 notchback,
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roverv8bay
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| posted on November 14th, 2013 at 07:25 PM |
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Gday all. As vlad01 said Jeff Dellow does make flywheels adapter plates bellhousing along with a large range of bye products to suit. It's Jeff
Dellow that I'm going to see about the Subaru to suit Rover v8 Holden & Chev plus the possibility of Ford Windsor. WE have known each other
since 71 I used to do conversions in Sydney mainly on Toyota crowns to holden 6 or chev v8 & anything unusual. . that the main stream companies
didn't want. I think a Subaru in a Kombi with a 3.8 v6 0r rover v8 would be a good drive car let alone towing a van etc. I would like some feed back
on this as a option over the suby motor. having done kombies with ea81 & ej20 turbo syncro & seeing the owner of the syncro buy 2 spare
syncros for the gearbox's & having 2 rebuilds done so far the cost of transmission's is close to $12.000.00 and the last rebuild had albins 3rd
4th put into it & it lost 2nd gear 2 moths after rebuild the syncro is now sitting unreged in the shed next to the spare body so 1 day I will get
to buy 1 of them to mid engine like the t2.
ernie
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vlad01
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| posted on November 14th, 2013 at 08:46 PM |
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so whats the cheaper option for gear box? built up kombi 2l box or suby 5 speed?
I am leaning toward the suby just for the fact its got a VSS that you can integrate into the delco ECU and get proper function of the feature they
have. Like idle control, low speed drive ability spark map smoothing(tip in/out bump spark, RDSC) idle drive smoothing ect... which are all adjustable
of course, can disable for raw performance( like I have). the VSS
ppKm can be dialed in too which is sweet if you are running a different VSS like in this case.
a 4 speed will do find with the v6 though. they have very broad torque curve. Some times i skip gear in the stock T5 5 speed.
can pucker a long in 3rd at 25-30km/h and push 3rd all the way to 150km/h and it does it so easy.
let just say you see the speed climbing up fast without the tach really moving. that should give you an idea on drive ability and torque.
5 speed of course will be better as its more fun, good for towing as well.
if these conversions ever happen, let me in on it. i can greatly help with the engine side, engine management and custom looms and i know all the
sources for engine management hardware components.
here is a custom loom I built couple of weeks back.
71 notchback,
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Subarugears
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| posted on November 15th, 2013 at 07:51 AM |
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Making adaptor plates for the Subie transmission can be a challenge as the engine casting includes half of the bellhousing - unlike most other engines
that are flat at the back.
We have made adaptor plates for VW type 1, type 4 and late model petrol and diesel engines to the Subie trans and they are 22mm thick to keep the
spacing correct - hence why they are made of billet aluminium.
The flywheels can be a challenge - for the VW flat 4 we needed to make a custom flywheel that is basically a Subaru flywheel with a VW type 1 or type
4 centre. This way you have a quality 1 piece flywheel that uses a standard Subaru starter motor and clutch. For the VW late model petrol and diesel
engines it only requires a flywheel spacer and you can bolt the Subaru flywheel right up.
Our latest challenge is making an adaptor plate for the Chevy LS1 series of engines, which we have almost completed. This opens up a whole new world
of conversions - both in reversed and in mid mount form. Heck, they might even fit the Holden/Buick V6's for all I know. Vlad you might know the
annswer to that one.
Anyway, back to the OP - sure a Subie turbo transmission could suit. We do low km reversed ones for $4,000 when available. Total cost would then have
to include adaptor plate and flywheel as well. Gotta weigh that up vs the alternatives and the advantage of the 5th gear for relaxed cruising.
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roverv8bay
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| posted on November 15th, 2013 at 07:32 PM |
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Gday all. no more on adapters seems I have been beaten to the v8 units so give up on idea thought it would be a good enterprise. the chev pattern is
also used on some 308 motors the v6 is different to v8 also different flywheels as stated in this forum Jeff supplies both types to suit the auto
& manual cnc made to spec.
ernie
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vlad01
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| posted on November 15th, 2013 at 09:44 PM |
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Todd, i know what you are talking about, the VN-VR (pre ecotec) engine rely on a massive complex cast iron bracket to help support the engine to the
bell housing.
The bellhousing is full circle for all manual trasimisions.
see this pic of bell housing, dust cover and cast iron bracket.
however, that is the earier engine. Once ecotec came out they had a totally differnt support bracket. beeing so rare to have a T5 gearbox and ecotec
in the same car it took me more than a year to ever know what the bracket looked like(0 pics exist on the net, except mine now :smilegrin .
I managed to score a pair of brackets at a hefty 170 bucks for the pair, I am one of the only people to have a pair free for examination.
turned out this uber rare unobtanium part was so stupidly simple.
If you based the conversion on the ecotec, which I think the later models of them were the best of all v6s, you can make a full circle adapter and a
pair of these from some plate steel as you can see they are simple and you should be right.
And thats how they go on, simple yeah? engine block on top half of bellhousing, brackets on the bottom half.
You can simplify the brackets even more and the shape they are now is because of the constraints of having a power steering rack go under them.
2 other small challenges. dust cover which can jsut be a simplified laser cut plate o suit the adapter. I have OEM plates if need be to copy some
design aspects of it.
Starter motor. Manual engine use a delco remy starter which are seen as rare. But I know better, nearly every VP auto and manual were fitted with
them. so there should be a few still floating around. the alternative is to make the adapter plate with enough room for the nose cone of the more
common Bosch starter seen on every other model of commodore with v6 till 2004, you can buy them new for around $150
71 notchback,
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Subarugears
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| posted on November 16th, 2013 at 06:34 AM |
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Subaru transmissions have their own starter motor location cast into the transmission case.
This way a standard Subaru starter motor and flywheel/clutch setup can be used.
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vlad01
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| posted on November 17th, 2013 at 10:50 PM |
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Thanks Todd. Didn't think they did so that makes it easier now that I know.
when i was talking to roverv8bay I realized the last car to receive the V6 was the VY, it has mounting point integrated to the sump for full circle
bell housing.
I have one of these blocks with sump at home. That will make an adapter plate piss easy now. Will see if i can grab a pic tomorrow. It didn't come to
mind as its not compatible with T5 transmission i disregard it without thinking that an adapter is custom anyway lol.
So it looks like just adapter plate and flywheel needs to be created? And one dust shield?
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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