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 Allbones
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 posted on September 12th, 2014 at 08:01 AM |
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UPDATE - Losing power & miss-fire/backfire
Good morning dubbers,
Wondering if you can assist? I was out for a drive last night and noticed the headlights & dash were very dim. Didnt think a great deal of it
until my head unit dropped out and the dash lights were barely visible. This would come and go.
Pulled up and check around a found a loose wire (negative) that ran off of a box mounted on the fan shroud (was silver & had bosch writen on it,
one side was wired directly connected ot the generator, box circled in picture below). Fixed it then had to pushstart the car as it wouldnt turn
over.
I stripped the wire, and wrapped it around the plug, as I couldnt crimp it back together on the spot.
This didnt fix the issue though, The car started missfiring & backfiring woefully and I would have periods where lights were good, then everything
would drop out, then come back on again. Even after a 30min run down the highway, with the lights staying nice and bright, I couldnt start the car
after shutting it off (read as it cut out at a set of lights at the end of the drive and we had to push-start it again)
Can anyone help identify if it's just that loose wire, or something more sinister?
Cheers, Allbones
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vduboy
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| posted on September 12th, 2014 at 01:31 PM |
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The box is your regulator for your generator, not sure the generator or the regulator would have liked running without a proper earth.. Do you have
access to a multi meter? Charge your battery back up and check the charging voltage with the motor running, should be somewhere between 13.8v-14.5v.
If not then further testing is required.
It will all be OK in the end, if it's not OK it's not the end!
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donn
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| posted on September 12th, 2014 at 02:24 PM |
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And we won't mention the fuel filter
I dream of a day when a chicken can cross a road without being asked for it's motive!
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psimitar
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| posted on September 12th, 2014 at 10:56 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by donn
And we won't mention the fuel filter
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why not mention the fuel filter 
As for the electrical issue. I'm assuming it was one of the smaller gauge wires that had come lose? Probably the one that goes to the generator?
If so then without power to the generator field windings and the motor running off the battery then there'sa good chance the generator has
de-polarised or worse burnt the windings out.
To check things out do a search for Speedy Jims website. There he explains how to re-polarise and test a generator. I could explain it but with the
diagrams the website is easier to understand.
As to why 30mins of driving with the generator probably working didn't charge the battery enough to start it. Well your battery probably has a
current output of around 30-35 amps per hour i.e. a 1 amp load could be run for 30-35 hours before the battery is flat. However, the battery doesn't
charge at that rate. Maybe 5 amps is drawn tops so it would require 6 hours to fully charge the battery. Cold cranking amps is different to amps per
hour but not too much as you can flatten a battery within 10mins of constant cranking.
Either way, I hope that helps you figure out your problem 
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
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Allbones
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| posted on September 13th, 2014 at 08:00 PM |
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Very easy read thanks psimitar, excuse my ignorance, but when he refers to jumper, does he simply mean a jump start cable?
Thanks for your help.
Allbones.
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psimitar
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| posted on September 13th, 2014 at 10:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Allbones
Very easy read thanks psimitar, excuse my ignorance, but when he refers to jumper, does he simply mean a jump start cable?
Thanks for your help.
Allbones.
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It depends on the thickness of wire and what he is saying to 'jump'. Jumper cables for battery to battery or regulator B+ to battery positive
terminal but otherwise a jumper wire is just a suitable length of wire of similar or greater thickness than the wires currently connected to the
terminals to be jumped.
Say in the case of jumping the starter motor you can just use a screwdriver across the input stud and solenoid terminal. So that's just an example.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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Allbones
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| posted on September 14th, 2014 at 10:01 AM |
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Not a problem, thanks for your help
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psimitar
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| posted on September 14th, 2014 at 09:51 PM |
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no worries
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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Allbones
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| posted on September 30th, 2014 at 08:34 AM |
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Good morning guys,
I got to testing it and I'm not really sure of the outcome.
First we tested with a volt meter across the battery, it appeared to be chargin at about 11-12v
We thought this seemed low so proceeded with checking the Generator using the method described Speedy jimmy's.
First one was volt meter to the generator, and generator to the frame. This gave us a reading of around 5v.
We then tried to re-polorise it, but the shaft wouldnt spin. (We tried leaving the earth where it was, and also moving it to the battery).
The one thing I will comment on is that we only had 18guage wire to use as a jumper, but I dont see how this would be a drama as its about the same
size as the wire connecting the generator to everything else anyway.
Not really sure where this leave me? Any help would be appreciated 
Thanks, Bones.
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psimitar
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| posted on October 1st, 2014 at 12:17 AM |
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You did remove the belt before trying to re-polarize the generator? And you made sure the brushes aren't too short?
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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Allbones
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| posted on October 1st, 2014 at 09:22 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
You did remove the belt before trying to re-polarize the generator? And you made sure the brushes aren't too short?
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Yeah, belt was removed :P
The brushes seem firm still, not sure if they are short or not? Probably wouldnt be able to tell if they were anyway 
My dilemma currently is do I need a new generator, and if so, will it just be easier to upgrade to an alternator. Need to sort it out as the car is my
daily
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Allbones
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| posted on October 1st, 2014 at 09:43 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
You did remove the belt before trying to re-polarize the generator? And you made sure the brushes aren't too short?
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Yeah, belt was removed :P
The brushes seem firm still, not sure if they are short or not? Probably wouldnt be able to tell if they were anyway
My dilemma currently is do I need a new generator, and if so, will it just be easier to upgrade to an alternator. Need to sort it out as the car is my
daily
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psimitar
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| posted on October 1st, 2014 at 11:10 PM |
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Send an email to Just Kampers asking for the length of a new brush. Alternatively, try to move the brush spring to one side and remove the brush and
then pop the spring back into the holder slot. From this you can see how deep into the slot the spring will apply pressure to the brush.
I mean the brushes are about $6 a pop compared to one of those lovely, well made Brazilian alternator kits  tad bit of sarcasm there
If the brushes are in good order and the DF and D+ wires from the genny are well connected and in good condition then the only 2 reasons for the genny
not spinning are burnt out stator wiring or not enough juice in the battery to re-polarise.
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Allbones
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| posted on October 2nd, 2014 at 08:03 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
Send an email to Just Kampers asking for the length of a new brush. Alternatively, try to move the brush spring to one side and remove the brush and
then pop the spring back into the holder slot. From this you can see how deep into the slot the spring will apply pressure to the brush.
I mean the brushes are about $6 a pop compared to one of those lovely, well made Brazilian alternator kits tad bit of sarcasm there
If the brushes are in good order and the DF and D+ wires from the genny are well connected and in good condition then the only 2 reasons for the genny
not spinning are burnt out stator wiring or not enough juice in the battery to re-polarise.
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Too easy, I might charge another battery and try repolorising again, as that is a possability, failing that i'll look at the brushes and go from
there.
Where would I inspect the Starter wiring? Trace the wires back from the starter motor? (just making sure thats what you were refering to)
Thanks very much for your help
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Allbones
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| posted on October 2nd, 2014 at 08:10 AM |
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One other thing quickly, when polorising it does the earth need to be to the body of the car or back to the battery? Logic for me would be back to the
batter to complete the circuit, but the speedy jimmy diagram and write up didnt reallly indicate that.
When we did it we tried earthing to one of the screws (looked to be stainless) in the back of the car and also the earth terminal on the battery.
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psimitar
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| posted on October 2nd, 2014 at 11:09 PM |
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So long as there is good contact thru the engine to the gearbox and then onto the chassis then it should be fine. I mean the coil and auto choke
wouldn't work if that was the case.
However, if in doubt then use a wire from the threaded hole toward the back of the gennys top and connect to battery neg term.
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Allbones
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| posted on October 2nd, 2014 at 11:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
So long as there is good contact thru the engine to the gearbox and then onto the chassis then it should be fine. I mean the coil and auto choke
wouldn't work if that was the case.
However, if in doubt then use a wire from the threaded hole toward the back of the gennys top and connect to battery neg term.
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No dramas. Will give the wiring a check first, then, try the polarise again, failing that I'll pull it apart and check the brush length.
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 helbus
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| posted on October 3rd, 2014 at 01:29 AM |
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Please remove the fuel filter from the engine bay and put it under the car.
Many engine bay fires are caused by fuel filters in the engine bay. The heat cracks them, or wrong size hose is fitted and the fuel goes onto the
distributor, which ignites the fuel.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by donn
And we won't mention the fuel filter
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Allbones
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| posted on October 3rd, 2014 at 08:09 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
Please remove the fuel filter from the engine bay and put it under the car.
Many engine bay fires are caused by fuel filters in the engine bay. The heat cracks them, or wrong size hose is fitted and the fuel goes onto the
distributor, which ignites the fuel.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by donn
And we won't mention the fuel filter
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Thank's for the concern but that's not a picture of my engine, I just found that online to illustrate a point earlier in the thread.
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Allbones
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| posted on October 9th, 2014 at 08:18 PM |
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So I checked it with a battery with a full charge. Still no movement.
Couldn't get under the car to check the starter but gave the starter motor wire on the engine side a tug and it didnt pull through.
At this point I pulled the back half of the belt pulley off to look at the brushes (or at least see whats invilved with it, I really wasnt sure what I
was doing, haha) and a small semi-circular piece of metal fell out. Not sure what it is? (Photo attached).
Any more help would be appreciated. Thanks again!
Allbones.
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 Bizarre
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| posted on October 9th, 2014 at 08:37 PM |
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it is the "woodruff key" that holds the back half of the generator pulley in place. Stops it spinning on the shaft
You will see a slot on the shaft and once in the key will sit a bit proud.
The pulley has a notch in it and this slides over the key way, locking it in place
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Bizarre
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| posted on October 9th, 2014 at 08:47 PM |
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have a read here
http://www.vw-resource.com/alternator.html
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Allbones
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| posted on October 9th, 2014 at 09:25 PM |
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Thought that may have been the case but wasn't sure.
When I pulled the back half of the pulley off, there were two screws there, is that what I undo to check the pressure the spring is putting on the
brush?
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psimitar
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| posted on October 9th, 2014 at 10:50 PM |
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Early gennys have open slots at the pulley end of the casing where you can see the brushes and springs. Later ones had a cover over them.
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Allbones
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| posted on October 10th, 2014 at 08:36 AM |
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So I found this video and everything seems so much clearer now, haha.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ducThsVrs64
I understand what you are talking about and will go home anc check the brushes and springs properly tonight
This is all a learning experience for me so I really appreciate your help 
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Allbones
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| posted on October 10th, 2014 at 09:07 PM |
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Had a look this arvo, brushes are connected no dramas, seem to have good pressure applied to them. No wire loose from the start motor.
The brushes looked to be about 2cm long, I couldnt wiggle them when the spring was in place.
Thinks it's time to just take it somewhere where someone knows what they are looking for/doing, 'cos I'm stumped, haha.
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Anthiron
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| posted on October 11th, 2014 at 08:31 AM |
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I have had issues previously with the inside of the metal runner that the brush sits in being corroded slightly which was stopping the spring from
pushing the brush agaisnt the communicator even when I thought they were.
Bit of emery paper fixed that.
Are the contact points in your regulator gummed up or closed?
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psimitar
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| posted on October 11th, 2014 at 10:26 AM |
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Hmm, yea if you aren't too knowledgable with electrics then the best most can do is clean things up so that there is nice clean contact surfaces,
make sure brushes n springs are in good order n try to re-polarise.
If it doesn't spin when re-polarising with a good charged power source then probably means something wrong with the field windings and that means
taking it apart to check for winding resistance and continuity.
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Allbones
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| posted on October 29th, 2014 at 12:12 PM |
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Car was in a Custom VW today. The Regulator was shagged.
Cheers to all for all the help and input. Much appreciated!
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psimitar
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| posted on October 29th, 2014 at 10:16 PM |
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Odd that it wouldn't spin when trying to polarise cos whether any magnetic field existed or not it shoulda spun? Odd but glad it's sorted
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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