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 Deadpan
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| posted on December 26th, 2014 at 11:55 AM |
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Brake medium upgrade options
Hi all,
need some Tech input for my 74 L bug , I have priced some new 5 stud front discs(stud pattern still undecided) but would like to upgrade my front
calipers hopefully to something readily available that bolts onto the original spindles,not sure if type 3 or Porsche would be a easy and worthwhile
option,hopefully a factory look upgrade from standard but not big brake upgrade any input appreciated,also originally thinking of rear disc but if I
could upgrade the rear drum assembly, research that type 3 rear brakes would be a good option,the rear disc idea won't be required,thanks
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ...  |
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 Bizarre
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| posted on December 26th, 2014 at 01:54 PM |
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Believe there is a fairly simple Porsche 944 option for front but not really cheap
Rears I would just go Type 3
Personally I reckon stock is good for 100 HP or so
Put the $$$$ into tyres and suspension
Better bang for buck
Futue te ipsum!!!
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mactaylor
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| posted on December 26th, 2014 at 04:48 PM |
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I Suppose it goes, stock rebuild pref with twin pin calipers, good pads and shoes, ring richard at vforce. Type 3 drums rear second, NA 944 hubs and
discs third. Ford rear disc conversion fourth. Then it gets Expensive. There is a dude in canada that does the porsche conversion stuff for OKish
money. I think VWCOOL is still doing brakes but havnt seen much latley.
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
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Deadpan
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| posted on December 26th, 2014 at 04:51 PM |
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Thanks,
from abit more research the type 3 rear brakes should give about 20 to 30% more brake in the rear,also fitting straight forward except unsure if T1
handbrake cable and axle spline match type 3 rear brake.
With the 944 front calipers tried to find clear information on fitting to T1 spindles and if I can use t1 front discs, only seems under 3mm in disc
diameter difference from 944 discs also which calipers are the better option your referring to 944 or 944 Turbo?
This won't be a 100 hp bug,just one that stops better with the traffic around suburbs and city driving.
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ... |
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Deadpan
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| posted on December 26th, 2014 at 05:04 PM |
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Being in Qld,not sure about the other states,I have heard that modifications on cars are getting more scrutinised so hopefully looking at more of a
standard/factory look with about 30 to 50% better stopping.
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ... |
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vwo60
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| posted on December 26th, 2014 at 05:44 PM |
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You can get the Porsche front calipers approved in Queensland, you would need to run the front Porsche hub and rotor but adapt the bearings, a bit of
machining involved, you would then have a 5 x 130 stud pattern, I also think you can fit the 944 stub axel to your 74 L bug using a special lower ball
joint, I have one here at the moment with a four wheel disc conversion that is approved. get a good engineer and you can get any sensible mod
approved.
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Deadpan
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| posted on December 27th, 2014 at 04:57 PM |
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So not much choice for a middle ground between standard calipers to re engineered front suspension porsche brake,also means have to stick with 2 bolt
struts with porsche,hoping maybe less engineered option which would mean less special parts required and most parts readiliy available
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ... |
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vwo60
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| posted on December 27th, 2014 at 06:04 PM |
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The compliance for the Porsche conversion is easy as it uses propriority parts that basically bolt on, being in Queensland PM karmann141 as he has
done the conversion and had it engineered, his car is at my home at the moment. parts are not that expensive as not many people want the parts to do
the job. the upside of this conversion will be the engineering costs will be minimum, unlike all the crap that is available with no engineering specs
that will assist in the process.
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CH5353
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| posted on December 27th, 2014 at 07:34 PM |
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have T3 rear drums on IRS arms
also
924T 5 stud x 130 PCD
Rear - complete steel IRS arms
Front - complete 2 bolt front struts
this is a bolt in changeover so should be fairly simple on the legal & engineering side of things
PM if interested
67 T1 BJ IRS
61 T1 Karmann Cab
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psimitar
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| posted on December 27th, 2014 at 09:03 PM |
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Be careful when changing the Beetles brakes as larger discs and/or calipers messes with the brake bias of the vehicle and so more braking force to the
front reduces rear braking force and unlike for front engined vehicles an increase in front braking force can be detrimental to the overall braking
distance of the vehicle.
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vwo60
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 06:08 AM |
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944 conversion fully engineered and passed the brake test without any bias issues. I have done three conversions including a six spot front caliper
and all passed there test, all have a large increase in overall in braking force and are difficult to lock the wheels.
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Deadpan
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 09:10 AM |
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Thanks Mike,this bug won't be a racecar,with engine power increase,bit bigger wheels and Brissy traffic looking for abit better braking,apparently
type 3 rear brakes should be 20 to 30% braking increase and with 924T/NA 944 front brakes unsure what improvement hoping about the same or abit better
at 20 to 30%.The more factory/standard I can make this bug, the less on the mod plate.In my goolgeing people have used 924T/NA 944 calipers on 1303
spindles,bolting a adaptor plate to caliper mount,not sure how legal or safe this is.Also from googling using Porsche struts less work to use early
spindles have the hole for the speedo cable,later you have to drill a long hole.
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ... |
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vwo60
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 12:34 PM |
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You will also require an adaptor lower ball joint, you might have trouble using the standard master cylinder as the displacement between the brakes
you mention will be different to standard, also the stud pattern will be different back to front. as for the adaptor for the caliper, you would be
better of with the 944 stub axel.
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Deadpan
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 12:54 PM |
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Thanks,I have read the use of Kerscher ball joints for the installation of Porsche suspension / braking components to allow for camber
correction,looks like overseas sourcing,with stud pattern even the porsche pattern will a change of wheel choice,I have seen new type 3 brake drums
redrilled to different PCD,hoping if I could find blank porsche discs PCD would also change,also in the plan was a bit modern dual circuit braking
system.Not want to change alot but just update,never cared to much about looks over braking,handling and drivability,on another note tried to register
a few times at SBO with no luck hoping I can source information
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ... |
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vwo60
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 01:48 PM |
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Standard type three rear hubs cannot be redrilled safely, http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VW-TYPE-3-PORSCHE-5x130-REAR-HUBS-4130-CHROMOLY-/1... there are a lot of Porsche wheels with the
correct ET that are very cheap. get you engineer to calculate any change of wheel cylinder/calipers for a change in displacement, this will effect how
the master cylinder works, any increase in displacement at the front should have a corresponding increase at the rear.
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beetleboyjeff
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 01:58 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Deadpan
,on another note tried to register a few times at SBO with no luck hoping I can source information
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As far as I am aware, there is usually no problem registering on SBO - there are a few of us Aussies on there. Maybe some of the other Aussies like
Joel, Steve C, or Glenn T. may have more info.
From your ole' mate Jeff
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Deadpan
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 02:23 PM |
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Jeff tried a couple of times over the last few months and never get the validation email,I check all email folders and never had trouble with my
hotmail address before,
and I wouldn't play with redrilling standard drums,the ones I was talking about are new blank drums,I just have to reconfirm that they are type 3,if
nothing is up to or exceeds standard I won't use cheap or substandard quality,
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ... |
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Deadpan
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 03:17 PM |
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Also to add looking at only a drop of 50 to 60 mm all round,want to run 16 or 17" rims by 6 or 7",I know you can have different options with beetle
front struts not sure about Porsche
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ... |
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hulbyw
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 06:02 PM |
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Type 3 drums don't fit straight on to the axle splines like type 1 drums do. Type3's have a hub which goes on the axle splines then you attach the
drum to the hub. So if changing the PCD, you need blank hubs plus blank drums which you then get drilled to your desired PCD. Maybe Shermans have hubs
and drums that would suit.
Cheers,,,,
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Deadpan
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 07:21 PM |
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I was talking to John couple of days before Christmas,he had a couple of different blank discs and drums there to show me,wishful thinking that blank
type 1 front discs would suit the Porsche front brake setup,I didn't specifically ask about type 3 blank drums but thought he mention them to me.
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ... |
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vwo60
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| posted on December 28th, 2014 at 11:05 PM |
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http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VW-TYPE-3-PORSCHE-5x130-REAR-HUBS-4130-CHROMOLY-/1... this is what I run, you just adjust the
standard drum to fit the hub.
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karmann141
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| posted on December 29th, 2014 at 06:59 AM |
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PM sent - I have done the Porsche 944 brake upgrade on my 1974 L Bug - all Qld approved. Give me a call if you would like to discuss.
Cheers
1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
2011 Tiguan TDI 4Motion
2010 LR Discovery 4 TDV
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 barls
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| posted on December 29th, 2014 at 12:10 PM |
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Be careful with shermans stuff had a drum start to fail on me in low miles.
He replaced but I was still out on shipping and getting them drilled
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vwo60
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| posted on December 29th, 2014 at 12:32 PM |
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X 2
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ian.mezz
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| posted on December 29th, 2014 at 01:27 PM |
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just completely over haul your stock brakes and that should do it as a vw is a very small car and don't need bigger brakes.
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Deadpan
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| posted on December 29th, 2014 at 06:22 PM |
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I have read many posts regarding the questionably quality of shermans stuff,but haven't found too many people selling new blank drums or discs.Also I
do try to spend money in Aus before overseas unless the quality and pricing is basically money grabbing,Ian I know that a brake overhaul would be
adequate,I am not wanting a big brake upgrade but because its not my driving I worry about its the people in QLD that either guess how to drive and/or
don't maintain their vehicles that worry me.I want this bug when finished to handle any traffic or situation day,night,sunshine or rain
Shaun,Part-time secret snake relocator,full time reptile keeper and small collector of ugly projects bugs ... |
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vwo60
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| posted on December 29th, 2014 at 07:26 PM |
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Once you drive a beetle with decent brakes you will not look back, very reassuring in traffic, compared the new standard brakes on my type three Ghia
my other two cars have far shorter braking distance without any chance of fade.
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psimitar
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| posted on December 30th, 2014 at 12:51 AM |
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Whatever upgrade you do will need to be blue plated as altho some of the Porsche gear can bolt up to the 1303's spindle the regs will probably see
this as a change outside that of the original vendor.
The MC shouldn't really be an issue unless you were fitting stupidly large 6 pot calipers at the front as the volume of fluid needed to move a 4 pot
Porsche caliper from a 924/944 would give a slightly longer pedal action and that's about it. VolksWorld did a large brake upgrade article a few
years back and even the aftermarket 4 pot calipers used the same 19mm MC.
Oh, that reminds me. Wilwood and HiSpec both do 4 pot calipers that are a straight bolt on for the 1303. Been a while but think my memory is right.
For the rear the early wide 5 T3 drums didn't have a seperate splined hub that the drum was sandwiched to but had the usual splined drum as per the
Beetle.
To check the front and rear upgrades as a whole to keep the brake bias correct you'll have to do some more research for the maths required as you
have to calculate the hydraulic bias of the front and rear and then the mechanical advantage of either the disc or drum to be used compared to the
standard set up. Hydraulics is the easy part.
So I hope that's of some help 
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1303Steve
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| posted on December 30th, 2014 at 08:58 AM |
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Hi
You can fit early Type 3 calipers to your stub axles, they have a slightly bigger piston that gives more bite, fit some Type 3 rears, all with quality
brake material.
You can spot early Type 3 calipers, they only have 1 bleed nipple so they left and right handed, they use a twin pin rectangular pad which would be
marginally larger than stock pads.
I have them on my sons 1303 and they work very well even on track days. This should be all you need for daily driving.
Steve
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bus914
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| posted on December 30th, 2014 at 01:49 PM |
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Are there any fancy pads that are worth the extra outlay?
I think green and yellow options are available for type 3 calipers: http://brakesdirect.com.au/ebc
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