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 KruizinKombi
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 06:29 PM |
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Supercharging a 2L Type IV
Does anybody have any idea about what kind of horsepower could be expected from a 2L Type 4 with a Toyota supercharger bolted on? I say Toyota
supercharger because they can be picked up from the wreckers for about $300. If a Toyota supercharger isn't suitable, then what is?
I was thinking of using factory FI manifolds with an aftermarket system hooked up to it, or perhaps temporarily using the factory system re-tuned.
What do people think?
Kruizin Kol
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vwrallycar
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 06:40 PM |
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i would be very interested in how you plan to do this and any details you have available although i prefer turbos
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 08:54 PM |
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I looked into that option too (before the V6). I even bought a pair of type 4 motors (later sold them to Terry).
I was going to use carbs though, and not EFI. EFI is so expensive. I went to the local jap importer, they had heaps of jap superchargers. Some even
had carbs fitted to them.
They had one supercharger with carb on top, that was designed for a 660cc engine. I figure a pair of them on a type 4 would be pretty cool.
Only prob was the cost to reco a type 4 so that it would handle being force fed.
You should go to an importer and dig through what they have.
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amazer
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| posted on January 23rd, 2003 at 11:22 AM |
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The US buses with the air pump for emisions might be a good source for a drive pulley. I think it bolted on with the fan bolts.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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Pat
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| posted on January 23rd, 2003 at 11:42 AM |
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You should check out the mazda/eunos ones as well, these have an electric clutch on the pulley, kinda like an aircon pump. So you could have a big
shiny red "GO" button on the dash for the super charger.
Ooh, suits you sir!
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on January 23rd, 2003 at 09:53 PM |
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Please take note all, IF I go through with this, it's going to take a long time because Heather is currently commandeering our
money in an effort to buy a house (And I'm letting her because house = BIG shed!!). All good things take time. 
Wes, I was planning on using a stock rebuilt engine with low boost initially. I'll probably start with 4psi and see how it goes before upping the
pressure to maybe 7psi. I'm more worried about heat.
Chris, you hit the nail on the head! That's exactly how I was planning on doing it. I'd mount the supercharger in the appropriate position,
then plumb it into the factory plenum chamber on my FI 2L. That part is easy! Getting the mixtures right and the temperature down isn't. I'm
hoping that I can find a way to adjust the factory FI to suit the boost.
Pat, the Toyota supercharger has the exact same thing, kinda like the Ford XB in Mad Max!!
[Edited on 23-1-2003 by KruizinKombi]
Kruizin Kol
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OvalGlen
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| posted on January 26th, 2003 at 11:43 PM |
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There are two Toyota blowers. The smaller was on a 1600 and the slightly larger on a 2L 6 cylinder. My Brother bought the 2L one. Going that way you
can refer to the standard drive ratio and
alter your drive ratio to get you in the
ball park. If the motor is for a Kombi
I would also be worried about cooling.
Regards,Glenn>
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reub
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| posted on January 27th, 2003 at 09:24 AM |
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I was looking to do this a couple of years ago to a type 1. Was going to do a near stock rebuild and look at alternate cooling for the engine. I
looked into it all and figured it was going to cost me too much for what it was. Here are a couple of pics showing the blower on top of a type 1 case.
I have another pick in a magazine which I'll look for an scan in. From memory the guy used one on a stock 1300 doing a blow through with a single
su carby.
I had also thouhgt about a draw through carby setup. I got in touch with CAPA and another supercharger company (which I forget) and asked if it would
be ok to do. The reply from both of them was that a draw through would introduce fuel to the bearings and strip them of their lubrication. It was
stated that one of these blowers would be good for 200 to 300k kms but if used as a draw through they would last for 10 to 20k kms. Just food for
thought. Castlemaine rod shop is doing a draw through setup. Don't know if they have thought of this???
Another thing is the magnetic clutch on the blower. Aparently this was installed to aid with engine decellaration. Used on a small engine turned off
your naturally aspirated mode would be hindered as you would have to draw intake air through a stationary blower. I had thought about creating a dual
intake inlet manifold. One intake through the blower and a second bypassing it with a solinoid valve between the 2. Turn the blower on and the valve
is switched to the blower, turn it off and unrestricted air is let in.
As for power to be had, unknown. I wanted to go fast and guessed it wouldn't give me enough without spending big dollars. You would have to guess
that a marked improvedment could be had though.
The bug I was going to put it in.
Reub
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on January 27th, 2003 at 10:15 PM |
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Reub, the bypass manifold is a great idea, but I don't think you would need a solenoid, a spring-loaded flap would probably work.:thumb
I don't need to worry about fuel going through the blower, I'm using fuel injection at the ports.
What sort of blower is the one pictured? Do you still have it?
Glen, thanks for the tip, I didn't realise there was a 2L model. As for cooling, I was thinking of a little water injection.:thumb
Kruizin Kol
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Che Castro
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 03:05 PM |
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why not turbo?
Jon
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 06:08 PM |
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Because I want a supercharger! 
Glen, do you have any idea how I could tell the difference between the 1.6 and 2.0 versions of the Toyota chargers? Also, do you know what they were
fitted to? I'd like to take a look around for a workshop manual. :thumb
[Edited on 28-1-2003 by KruizinKombi]
Kruizin Kol
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Grey 57
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 06:26 PM |
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Kol, have you looked at what YellaTerra have to offer. Bit pricey but they have alsorts of configurations available.
Heres a link.
http://www.yellaterra.com.au/kits.php
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DeRrO
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 posted on January 28th, 2003 at 07:54 PM |
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Great mind think alike
Dam you guys are legends.
I was also thinking of building up a superchareged EFI type IV for (hehe) my Baja. I want to do a Custom EFI. Im very intrested to see how this thread
goes. I thought type IV got good power already add a supercharger should give reasonable bottom end.
I posted something on the Shoptalk forum on the Forced Induction section, but they so caught up in turbos didnt get much out of it.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 10:16 PM |
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I think the stock VW EFI would take some serious work to handle the extra air flow. I think the stock system would lean out.
Fancy late model EFI computers can usually accomodate mild levels of boost by monitoring the oxygen sensor. However there is a limit to how much they
can vary the fuel map.
I don't know how flexible the VW EFI is, but I would think it wouldn't be very flexible.
The 4AGZE 1.6 liter toyota supercharger is the most commonly known to australians, but remember there are heaps others in japan. Some come with carbs
on top set-up for draw through, so their bearings would be fine.
Just remember if your forced to go aftermarket EFI you will be looking at big $$$.
As for cooling, water injection will help prevent knocking on limited occasions, and will not help for constant driving. I think if you lower the CR
and use an intercooler (as the 4AGZE does) you shouldn't have much problem with cooling.
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reub
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| posted on January 28th, 2003 at 10:22 PM |
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The supercharger I had was a toyota 1G-GZE 2lt 6 cylinder one that I payed and sold for $200. One just sold on Ebay for about that as well.
Wes's reasoning is exactly what I meant by big $$$'s Mind you, look at the dollars spent on my EJ20T conversion. Horses for courses.
Reub
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DeRrO
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| posted on January 29th, 2003 at 08:18 PM |
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I got a question?
What do you guys think the biggest cost element is in a After Market EFi?? The computer and sensors etc.. I was thinking of biulding my own induction
use 2nd hand injectors and hunt around for a prograbamble computer. There is a buggie site on the net where this guy built his own EFI and the price
seemed reasonable about the same a twin webber kit.
What you guys think.
Cheers
Joel
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on January 29th, 2003 at 08:36 PM |
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Wes, I have thought about the probability of leaning out at maximum flows. I was hoping to find a way to put a MAP sensor in place of the kombi
vane-type flow sensor. The standard flow-meter only has 9 stages of resistance built in, I think a modern MAP sensor would be better, as well as
allowing more flow, more accurately.
If necessary I would upgrade to larger injectors, but I'd rather find a way to alter the pulse width of the standard injectors if possible. There
is also the option on adding an extra injector into the central plenum chamber, or utilising the choke injector that is already there.
The intercooler is an excellent idea, but I was hoping to avoid using one if the water injection would work well enough. I guess you're right
though, it is probably inevitable that I will need one. Water does not just prevent detonation though. If atomised correctly when injected, it should
cool the intake air quite considerably through the evaporation process.
Due to limited finances, this project is going to go very slowly, which will give me time to look into combustion chamber shapes, quench effects, etc.
I'm hoping that reshaping the heads may help alleviate detonation while at the same time lowering the compression ratio.
Reub, thanks for the info, I'll keep an eye out.
Keep it coming guys, I need as many devils advocates as possible to ensure that I think this thing out properly before I start spending money.
Ultimately though, I guess I'll have to buy some bits and just try it, but I'll wait until the 'right price' parts come along.
I'll have to do wome investigating inside the FI circuitry first though.
Kruizin Kol
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DeRrO
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| posted on January 29th, 2003 at 08:57 PM |
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Mr Krusinkombi
Do you think canging the combustion chamber shape etc would be nessisery?
also do you know any places on the net where i can find info on shapes and the effect it will have on what ever it effects?
Cheers
Joel
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 29th, 2003 at 09:28 PM |
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Col, as soon as you change the air flow sensor to something else, you will need an aftermarket computer.
Just to clear it up, a maf or vaf are basically the same thing. mass flow sensor / air flow sensor. The vane and flap types are kinda restrictive. My
V6 has a weird moving torpedo head looking one. Both of these types are sensitive to changes in flow at low speeds and give good low speed
drivability, but with the draw back of being a little restrictive.
LS1 chev motors have a hot wire anemometer (spelling?) type mass flow sensor. It flows very well, but isn't as sensitive to flow changes at low
flow, so can be a bit inaccurate at low engine speeds.
A MAP is a manifold pressure sensor. It is a pressure sensor on the intake. By monitoring the pressure it figures out what the flow must be. these
offer no restriction, but modifying a factory engine with a MAP confuses the computer because of the constants it uses to multiply the revs, air temp
and mainfold pressure gives it a flow rate, which might not be the right flow rate because you effectly changed the constants. A car with a VAF can be
modified and the engine will still know what the air flow is, it can compensate for the mods.
Either air flow method works, but certainly not with the kombi ECU.
oversize injectors will lead to poor low down running is too big. But if the existing are too small, the duty cycle on the injectors will become too
high and you'll also get problems.
If adding an extra injector ensure if fires somewhere that the fuel will be distributed evenly.
The EFI system on dune-buggy.com is crude to say the least. It is almost as basic as the old mechanical systems. I wouldn't use it on a street
car.
yes water injection will help cool the intake air and increase power slightly.
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Pat
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| posted on January 29th, 2003 at 10:12 PM |
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Water injection also cleans away carbon deposits, and prevents their build-up. I used to have it on my cordia, and when I pulled the head off to do a
gasket, it looked like new.
Ooh, suits you sir!
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fatboy
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| posted on January 30th, 2003 at 09:55 PM |
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Hey Kol !
I seem to remember through a drunken stupor (Yours or mine I'm not realy sure)
That you were talking about having a laptop to run some type of engine management software on.
Guess what ? the alzheimers cleared up for a few minutes and I remembered that I 've got an old crappy laptop sat on a shelf at my old job. I
rang em today and it's still wherer I left it.
It's only a 486 but its' got a 1gig drive and will run 95/98 we might even get it to log your gps tracks (It has a B/w screen but it is
colour on a monitor)
Whatya reckon ?
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on January 30th, 2003 at 10:33 PM |
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It sounds perfect, but I'd still have to buy the engine management system, ancilliaries and software, which I can't afford at the moment.
Maybe we should convert yours first?
Kruizin Kol
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fatboy
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| posted on January 30th, 2003 at 10:46 PM |
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Dont think I'll be converting mine for a while. (or ever )
Give us a shout if you change your mind.
I reckon it's current market value is about 5 cents so mates rates I'll probably have to pay you :thumb
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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Mr Bubblehead
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| posted on January 30th, 2003 at 11:21 PM |
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Regarding the efi computer, I remember reading an article about the OEM Delco units fitted to GM Vehicles. There is a program available to re map the
memcal(prom). One of these computers could be sourced from a wrecker with matching sensors and harness quite cheaply. Probably of a 2.0 litre
Camira...plenty of these at wreckers by now.
I also saw a crude water to air Intercooler. It consisted of two pipes an inner and an outer, with the outer forming a water jacket around the inner.
Water is pumped through the outer jacket cooling the intake charge which runs through the inner pipe. The water then runs through a heater core (which
is mounted external in air stream) to cool the water. The whole unit was simple and versatile because it could be mounted anywhere. It even had a
pressure switch in the inlet manifold so the pump switched on with boost. If you can mig weld then you could make it yourself with stainless exhaust
pipe.
Hope this helps.
Wayne. |
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fatboy
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| posted on January 30th, 2003 at 11:27 PM |
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Kol go here http://www.link-electro-usa.com/home.html
and download the PC link software, it is an american site but when you run the software it says its for use with a system made in NZ.
Software looks really good - lots of dials n stuff - course I haven't got a clue what it does or if it will help.
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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Woozy
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| posted on January 30th, 2003 at 11:45 PM |
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Try talking to vw repairs and spares in fremantle, perth
kurt there supercharged a waterboxer from a later kombi and stuck it in a beetle
he may be able to give advice
Everyone needs something to belive in !
I belive i shall have a beer !
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DeRrO
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| posted on January 31st, 2003 at 07:32 PM |
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Kurt at Freo has a sweet set up.
He runs a wolf 3d computer. Also has water methanol injection, to lower inlet temp. Should see it with is new paint.
Wes i know the EFi on Dune Buggie.com is crude but the inlet system should work ok, wouldnt be to difficult to build not very expensive. You could
adapt a better coputer to it very easily, specially if you found you cheap. You could use a similar system to mount a supercharger to it.
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OvalGlen
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| posted on January 31st, 2003 at 07:41 PM |
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Kol i have the length of the two Toyota blowers written down some where near the computer.
It will be easier for me to measure my Brothers and then tell you. There is only about 10mm difference in length from memory.
The Zoom Magazine article on Water injection is Very interesting.
On the testing they did, a reasonable
volume of water injection stopped
pinging and the correct level of inj
made the engine perform better
(possibly only due to removing the negative performance effect of pinging).
In my Books - well worth putting on .
Regards,Glenn>
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on February 1st, 2003 at 09:50 AM |
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Thanks guys :thumb:thumb:thumb
Kruizin Kol
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Pat
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| posted on February 1st, 2003 at 12:20 PM |
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I've got that copy of zoom if you want it, I can photocopy/scan it for you.
Ooh, suits you sir!
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