| [ Total Views: 4872 | Total Replies: 54 | Thread Id: 35359 ] |
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 gorn
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| posted on February 26th, 2005 at 12:02 AM |
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2110cc engine build
Hi all
I hear a lot of out there prices on built engines and I was wanting to know, aside from the obvious price of performance parts, what does it really
cost to build a motor out to 2110cc? ie: how much is ballancing really?
Im looking at CB Performance gear, and the rods come as a ballanced matched set, so thats done, wiseco pistons come as a ballanced matched set, so
thats done. CB heads come cnc machined and ready to go with match ported intake manifolds if you like, so thats done, all thats left is ballancing the
crank, clutch, flywheel and pully as a rotating assembly.
So why is it in Oz thats I see 1916cc motors for 10k? Thats nuts!
Answers from people in the know please, am very curious.
Thanks
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seagull
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| posted on February 26th, 2005 at 12:58 AM |
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I dont know about 10 K , around the 7 k may be .
go with a subaru 2 ltr turbo
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake
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56astro
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| posted on February 26th, 2005 at 06:39 PM |
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Because most of the "off the shelf"parts are shit quality.
If you want to use good quality stuff, you need to pay top $$.
When you compare an old Okrassa crank with the shit that comes out of the US ATM you will know what I mean.
Just pay attention to who runs really quick numbers without loosing engines (very few can do it).
I've got an 84 CB nitrided crank andcompared to the std VW crank the steel is soft and the journals are poor. Even with normal street driving this
crank could fail within 2000km without EXTRA work on it.
You really need to associate yourself with an experienced engine builder that won't just slap your parts together. He will look after you.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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gorn
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| posted on February 26th, 2005 at 07:56 PM |
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Are you serious about the CB crank??
Gulp.... I have an 82mm one of those, unused yet.
Not to much in the way of performance engine builders over here either.
Not that Im aware of anyway. When you say that the crank would need extra work, ummm (stupid question coming) like what?
Thanks
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56astro
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| posted on February 26th, 2005 at 08:48 PM |
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The edge of the journals has minite scratches in them. Those minute scratches become cracks .........
and ...........
BANG
We compared the hardness of the steel with a std VW crank and an old Okrassa crank and the new CB crank was the softest steel. So extra nitriding
was/is required. And you can only heat treat a piece of steel somany times before it makes an expensive door stop!
I was lucky cause I never paid full "freight", but if they are all of similar standard then I really feel for anyone that paid top $ for one.
You know the saying, you get what ya pay for:
CB crank = US$300
Okrassa = +Au$1000
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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boof2332
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| posted on February 26th, 2005 at 09:17 PM |
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I have found the scat pro comp crank and rods to be good.
As for the cnc machined heads...everyone I know has spent 2 days de burring them and cleaning them up.
You are better getting heads from a top porter like Steve Timms or Darren Gurolla, they will not cost much more than a set of cnc wedge ports and will
give better performance as they are made to your motor and requirements.
Look at this link...the DKP club cars...some pretty fast bugs. Look at their choice in crank, heads etc..
http://www.dkpcarclub.com/dkpcars.html
Good Luck
Matt
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mountainbug
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| posted on February 27th, 2005 at 08:53 AM |
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i've just about got finished a 1776 professionaly built.
I supplied carbs, case, crank, rods, heads
& it's cost me close to 4k for a turnkey (excluding above parts)
cheaper to buy second hand motor, but you don't know what your buying
It's an expensive hobby
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56astro
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| posted on February 27th, 2005 at 05:12 PM |
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Gorn,
have you had your crank tested or looked at by someone that knows what they're looking at?
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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gorn
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| posted on February 27th, 2005 at 07:39 PM |
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Not as yet 56astro. Still in the buying parts stage, but going by what you and others have said, I will be sure to send all my bits of to a reputable
builder in the eastern states.
Better safe than sorry eh?
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56astro
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| posted on February 27th, 2005 at 08:30 PM |
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CB's rods are very impressive though, Carillo-quality!
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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gorn
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| posted on February 27th, 2005 at 10:58 PM |
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Thats good to hear, as Im buying a set from Serrano in the US this week, along with an Empi sump. Bits and pieces as the money comes in :thumb
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on February 28th, 2005 at 10:32 AM |
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No need to send over east, there are a couple of perfectly good engine builders in Perth.
Arnoldi
Vee Dub Repairs and Spares (Kurt runs a supercharged waterboxer)
and probably Vee Dub Center in Morley.
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gorn
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| posted on February 28th, 2005 at 12:18 PM |
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Ive been to Kurt a few times, but never asked about an engine build, Im always in a hurry lol.
How good is he?
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 1st, 2005 at 11:13 AM |
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My engine builder Stan Pobjoy charges way less than a grand to 'build' (ie: assemble) an engine. But that's after buying the parts and
machining/prep. And you don't need to buy much stuff - the OE VW stuff (crank - when counterweighted, rods, valvegear, pushrods, even stock heads
when used with the right cam) is all VERY good for street performance. US stuff is often Taiwan-made junk than needs hardening and other machining
before it can be assembled into an engine. And you can NEVER build a strong engine by buying a ppp-piece form here and a ppp-piece from there or from
a catalog. It WILL cost you more and perform less. I know it is difficult, and buying is soooo tempting and it's nice to look at all the parts on the
bedroom floor or in the cupboard or wherever, but save your money as it comes in and then when you get to $6K or so, go and buy a ready-built engine
package. My 2c
[Edited on 1-3-2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on March 1st, 2005 at 12:29 PM |
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Here we go again........
Repeat after me 'Stan is THE man, but he is not the ONLY man....' :thumb
Jokes people, dont get upset. 
Sure, its great to be able to say just get stan to build it, but the grand you are mentioning up top doesnt include any machining or balancing etc -
and we all know that is the foundation of a great, strong motor.
Unfortunately, until Stan opens a franchise over here in the west, its less than practical (unless $ arent really a concern) to freight boxes of bits
over, then an engine back.
For my money, do your research properly. Really properly - look at as many different engine combinations as you can, especially known performers. Ask
all the silly questions up front - its much easier, for example, to change your choice of cam (something I wish I had done) before you have installed
said cam in engine, in car.
People like Dave Becker are good for no bullshit advice on here.
If you can afford it, and want to go that way, get one of stans motors - he is without doubt, the best vw engine builder in Australia. You will pay
for what you get. I'm not sure how warranty works over here with Stans motors and servicing - ask Desert Moose, he has a pobjoy motor in his
buggy.
But if you are like me, $ constrained, and more interested in building an engine than buying one, do it yourself. Its not rocket science, but you must
do everything right, as it is the overall package that performs, not any one single component.
As for Kurt, he is very good. I dont know how many hot type 1 motors he has built, but he would certainly be worth asking.
BEst of luck
[Edited on 1-3-2005 by Doug Sweetman]
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boof2332
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| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 06:39 AM |
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As silly as it may sound....building it yourself is not such a bad idea. I know of a few people who have put there own hot vw engines together and
performed great.
Look on http://www.shoptalkforums.com/
A guy once asked who to get to build his motor and they talked him through it step by step from start to finish.
I have been in quick 1916's and I have been in a quick 2180/2275..... I got out of the 1916 thinking that it was a pretty quick car, got out of the
2180 and 2275 thinking it was one of the quickest street cars I have been in..it was like comparing a swift GTi with a wrx. On the track with no
passengers where you can keep revvs up, the 1916 will go hard...instant throttle response in any gear with 2 friends in the car.....I LIKE TO BE
STROKED...!
CB performance and scat are bothe made in the USA, and have been making good bottom ends for a long time.
Good luck with whatever you choose...Just do heaps of research, and ask heaps of questions.
Matt
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 08:46 AM |
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I was just using my engine builder as an example for the tiny cost of having an engine built right the first time.
I know what it's like to stare back over a two-decade career of playing with cars and realise I've probably wasted $50K on 'name brand' bits I
didn't need (and cost- and corner-cutting which came back to bite me on the arse) when I could've paid pros to get it right, first time, without any
f-n around or wasted time, energy and money. Save up and pay a pro. That's my advice. There's plenty of people on here who will, if they have the
guts to admit it, feel the same way...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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56astro
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| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 09:56 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by boof2332
CB performance and scat are bothe made in the USA,
Matt
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Matt
I think you'll find that Scat may make their own cranks, but manufacturers like CB, Bugpack, aircooled.net get their cores made in China,
then machine in the US.
Intersting to note that in the January 2005 VW Trends that in the dyno shoot-out results, no crank brand names were given. They name their rods, cams,
pistons, heads etc but the crank brands are kept "secret". I'll try and find out why.
Anyways, I've seen first hand the quality difference btween a std VW 69mm crank, an old Claude's Buggies crank, an Okrassa and a CB Performance
(apparently nitrided) crank, and the first 3 comparred to the last one is chalk and cheese. Bare in mind that it didn't cost me much, and if it can
be fixed, I'll probably spend the money to fix it.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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boof2332
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| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 06:14 PM |
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My last one was ordered directly from scat as a complete engine kit less case and heads....and it was not that expensive. It was NOT the budget
volkstroker 2 or 3, it was the volksracer billet crank...Becker bought it.
I have never bought a CB crank, I just hadnt heard anything bad about them first hand.(my mistake sorry)
VWCOOL.... I personally would never build my own motor, the only person I trust to build mine is Andrew Dodd. He just doesnt build performance motors,
and thus he will take 6mnths or longer to do so. His motors finish every year in the targa, and the London to Sydney Rally without a problem.
If you do alot of reasearch and take your time you will minimise your money wasting......Buy a good crank/rods and buy your heads, cam and set your
compression ratio around the intended use of the engine.
Problem can be that alot of pros will tell you, you need something they make or import......so always listen to the masses to help make your educated
decision.
Matt
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mountainbug
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| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 06:28 PM |
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Heres a site to look up combos
http://www.geocities.com/enginecookbook/menu.htm
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 Bizarre
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| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 07:52 PM |
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Thanks mountain bug!!
I had that linke years ago when Ryan B was the last to add. He has has his 1916 for a couple of years now.
This is a brilliant site to see different combos
Futue te ipsum!!!
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hellbugged
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| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 11:16 PM |
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just got a motor(89kg) sent from perth to mid north coast nsw (pobjoy territory)-$320 one way, so you can add this to all your info. good luck. do the
sums on pricing $1000 case, $1100-$2000 crank, $500-$1500 rods, $500 p&barrels, $750-$1500 heads, then there are cams, gears, lifters, sumps,oil
pumps, bearings, push rods, lifters, $10-$!000 ignition,$1000-$2500 induction, altenators, exhausts, tinware, linkages,filters,gasket kits,clutches,
pressure plates,flywheels, oil lines,pretty bits and finally lots of labour & machining..........there is probably lots more missing from this
list, the bottom line is you can spend whatever YOU want or can. go for it!!!
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boof2332
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| posted on March 3rd, 2005 at 11:58 PM |
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I have said this before and people do not believe me...
Scat volksracer engine kit....
Crank billett
H or I beam billett rods
Barrells and pistons
HD oil pump
scat lightweight lifters/followers
cam of your choice(scat) $30 more for engle
cam gear
chromolly pushrods
and all the bearings and gaskets you need.
I added ratio rockers and a power pulley and $220 for shipping the total was about $1700 Australian...for all of it.
The kit itself is $815us which is $1060 aussie.
Cb performance super case landed was $900
Heads are your choice...I got drd racing ($1850 landed) they are as expensive as your gonna get.
If you get some allright heads at the right price, say $600...then the long block has only cost you $3200 then add $1000 for stan or similar to throw
it together.....
Call Ron Greiner at scat and he will help you.
The dollar is strong and shipping is not that expensive!
Matt
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gorn
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| posted on March 4th, 2005 at 02:30 AM |
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Im getting almost ALL my parts out of the samba forum. Wayyyy cheaper than full retail here even taking into account freight.
Im taking advantage of our exchange rate whilst its good.
God forbid doing this in the dark days of under 50c exchange rate.
That link was excellent to by the way so thanks Mountainbug!!!
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 5th, 2005 at 11:24 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by boof2332
My last one was ordered directly from scat as a complete engine kit less case and heads....and it was not that expensive. It was NOT the budget
volkstroker 2 or 3, it was the volksracer billet crank...Becker bought it.
I have never bought a CB crank, I just hadnt heard anything bad about them first hand.(my mistake sorry)
VWCOOL.... I personally would never build my own motor, the only person I trust to build mine is Andrew Dodd. He just doesnt build performance motors,
and thus he will take 6mnths or longer to do so. His motors finish every year in the targa, and the London to Sydney Rally without a problem.
If you do alot of reasearch and take your time you will minimise your money wasting......Buy a good crank/rods and buy your heads, cam and set your
compression ratio around the intended use of the engine.
Problem can be that alot of pros will tell you, you need something they make or import......so always listen to the masses to help make your educated
decision.
Matt
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lol... Part of my point is, lots and lots and lots of people waste so much money by buying 'brand name parts' that they have no idea about when
they SHOULD simply ring a builder, say 'I want 15 second quarters and 30mpg' and then simply pay the money to make it happen. It really is that
easy!
Instead, I know of people here and elsewhere who have tried three sets of carbies, ratio rockers, cams, merged exhaust, mufflers, chrome-molly
pushrods, stroker cranks, aftermarket CNC-machined and/or-hand ported heads yadda yadda yadda and then just given up. Some have bought Sunaru engines
or - worse - another car because they have NO IDEA what it is they want, what it is they've bought or what it takes to change what it is they have,
if you see my point.
Sometimes, such as at Amaroo Park years ago, these 'catalogue' engines full of 'famous name brand parts' were humiliated by my stock-headed, stoch
geared, stock-rodded, stock-pushrod, stock rocker gear, stock case, and stock-crank engine with nothing more than Kadrons, cam and an exhaust..
The expertise is in the specs and assembly or the "package", not teh brand name on the parts. You have chosen your prefered engine builder and I bet
if he says "you do need this" or "You don't need that" you take his advice. I have had product from Dodd too.
I am happy to build cars (7 or 8 big builds or restos since 1987), but leave the engine building to people with more expereince than I have had
birthdays and the records and tophies to prove it.
The last nine engines that my brother and I have had built or upgraded have come from the one bloke. We tell him what we need and he delivers. We pay
our $ and are ecstatic every single time
[Edited on 5-3-2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 5-3-2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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boof2332
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| posted on March 6th, 2005 at 08:29 AM |
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Gorn,
I think your 2110cc engine combo is a good choice. I hope the advice re cranks and prices will help you get the parts for a strong motor...there are
some great deals on samba.
I am sure you will find a great engine builder to help advise you on the finer details such as cam, rockers, heads and fuel delivery systems specific
to your needs....
Just out of curiosity..what is your intended use for the motor?
If you do have to save for the various purchases...it gives you plenty of time to read up on similar sucessfull combinations...
I wanted a really torquey street motor, that I could occasionally use in various events, but could also use daily if required..
Mine was ....
2332cc, scat crank, web 86b cam, DRD racing heads, IDA's with 3rd progression hole 1 5/8 merged headers.
The only reason i have done the subaru conversion is because I have had a 2180, 1916(pobjoy), 2074 and a 2275.
I also was able to sell my engine parts, do the conversion and buy a trail bike....
Vwfool...what crank would you advise for the 2110? Have you had any experiences good or bad with the bigger strokes.
Matt
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gorn
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| posted on March 6th, 2005 at 01:12 PM |
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Hiya Boof
Big motor you got there mate!
Im after a fast street motor with a bit of drag racing thrown in a few times a year. Im reading everything I can get my hands on to figure out what
seems to be the go etc etc. I will be leaving the cam and rocker choice till the last minute, and up to the engine builder to decide if thats a good
choice. When it comes to lift and duration, I am clueless lol.
I know some may say Im dreaming, but Im after at least 150hp at the rear wheels. Seems to be quite a few cars out there with way more than that, so I
dont think its an unreasonable figure.
What Im not after is a car that doesnt do much until 5000rpm and peaks at 7. Timebomb right there I think.
I already have the CB 82mm crank, and am trying to source a set of H beam CB rods from Serrano on the samba.
I want to build a stout bottom end first and work from there.
Aaron
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boof2332
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| posted on March 6th, 2005 at 10:32 PM |
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Gorn,
For what you are going to use it for...I beam rods would be fine.
There are 2 problems regarding H.P figures. Firstly American Dyno readings are higher than ours...not exactly sure how or why but 200hp in the states
might be 170 here.
Secondly the type of motor you and I like due to cam choice and heads will make more torque for longer and less H.P. A fk89 drag cam will give you
high hp at really high revvs, but not much of anything under 4000rpm.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apartt from choosing a solid bottom end the hardest decision I had to make was cam, then heads. I originally got an fk10 and decided even with the 84
stroke(heaps of torque) it was too big for my needs. The choice was between a web86b (same as fk8) needs 1.4 rockers which I had, the web split
duration cams such as the web 121/125 or 122/125...these are the ones Jake Raby slightly modifies and gets crazy performance.(stock rockers!!!!!!).
Then there is the vf range from engle...the last two have steep ramps and can be hard on the cam gear and followers...I think they creramic coat them
to solve the problem...you can email Jake..really helpful.
Have you seen the quaife diff test....Mark Herbert. It rocks and these were his specs...Maybe just copy them, there is nothing too expensive in the
package.
http://www.oceanstreetvideo.com/underground/quaifemed.rm
It is a 2276, here are the specs...
94mm Cima pistons, 82mm welded stroker, stock relieved VW rods, 14+lb flywheel, 120 cam (295dur x .495lift w/ 1.25 rockers). Solid shaft rocker kit,
3/8 thin-wall chromoly pushrods. 8 mm chromoly headstuds. 040 stock VW head castings w/ 40x37.5 valves, fully ported (as big as you can go without
welding), unshrouded chambers w/ hemicut, 8 to 1 compression, competition valve job, stainless steel valves, dual springs, titanium retainers, tapered
intake guides, intake guide bosses NOT removed, intake manifolds match-ported all the way up. and lastly he has some 48 dellortos on there... And 1
5/8 merged headers 2 1/2 inch muffler.
Matt
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gorn
Commited Dubber
Posts: 60
Threads: 9
Registered: December 10th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Perth
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| posted on March 7th, 2005 at 07:51 PM |
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Thanks for the info Boof. I dont have real media player, so cant view that link. Had it before, and was always screwy.
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71superbug
Custom Title Time!
The Itch Itcher
Posts: 1184
Threads: 72
Registered: May 20th, 2004
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Location: Perth
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| posted on March 8th, 2005 at 02:30 AM |
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its worth getting for that clip mate
that clip is almost as good as the rotary bug burnout video in my opinion
Anthony
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