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 wombatone
A.k.a.: Michael
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| posted on July 3rd, 2006 at 08:30 PM |
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Lowering a 56 oval for racing
I need to lower my oval now as it is a bite to high. thinking 2" at the rear and 4" at the front. I was thinking about Dropped Spindles up front
with adjusters. So I would not run out of wheel travel and still have plenty of adjustment. At the rear I was thinking of running Adjustable Spring
Plate, save all the hassle of adjusting the back end. What do you think? What are people running?
[ Edited on 3-7-2006 by wombatone ]
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BRUTUS
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| posted on July 5th, 2006 at 09:55 PM |
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Saw note in other section but looking at the pic! Car looks fairly high. Also look like high -profile tyres? Are they 15 x 6 steel wheels? How
about 205/50 x 15 tyres with OD of about 587mm. You need low profile OR low OD tyres - or both - for good accel & cornering on tighter/shorter
tracks.
Have only adjusters on beam of Brutus, and can get easily front "too low" if we want to...
ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
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wombatone
A.k.a.: Michael
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| posted on July 5th, 2006 at 11:28 PM |
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I intensely built the car with lots of ground clearance as on the Ampol I knew we would be going of road a bit. The mini copper S on the run was
lower and all that, hence he lost his extractors twice in one day. Now I’m bound for the track, I just want the ability to paly around easily at
the track to test setting. As for the rims I have been running stocks up front and 6” at the rear. Will be playing with sizes and offsets once I
have the room under the guards.
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BRUTUS
A.k.a.: et tu, Brute
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| posted on July 6th, 2006 at 09:17 PM |
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If you stay with 4-1/2 x 15 and 6 x 15 (if that is what you have) you shouldn't need more room under guards? Are you getting more/other rims? Need
to plan carefully before committing as the whole "package" needs to work together. Front might need to be 5 or 5-1/2 x 15 to get good tyres to
fit.
The original plan for Brutus was 15 x 7 rear; 14 x 6 front. The 15 x 7 is too big & heavy for hillclimbs, though may be ok for long fast tracks. So
it's 14 x 6 all round. I now wish they were 15" - but it is LOWER this way, & the grip with good Yokohamas is all you could want (in the dry).
ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
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wombatone
A.k.a.: Michael
Seriously Crusin Dubber
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| posted on July 6th, 2006 at 11:10 PM |
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As the track of my front end is wider than stock, I belive I need the wider guards as stock rims and 165 touch the guards even with the hight i've
got now. As for rims I will get new ones made, 6" 15's all round. What Yoko's do you run?
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BRUTUS
A.k.a.: et tu, Brute
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| posted on July 7th, 2006 at 02:19 PM |
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Just found your note re 15mm wider ea side due to discs. If you're having new rims made from steel, you could maybe have them offset back IN by a
bit more to remove the 15mm effect, Plus allow for wider tyres. This may avoid need for new guards. Also from memeory not much clearance at rear on
1956 model, so my suggestion of 205/50 might be no good... I would make the front tyre OD same or a bit smaller than back. But back tyres can be
same Width as front, or a little wider - much wider rears can make it understeer too much.
After a fair bit of thought Eventually settled on the "best" but most expensive Advan A048 narrowly missing instant divorce. Can't complain on dry
bitumen, but may be a bit hairy in wet or cold conditions. I very nearly got Goodrich g-Force Sport - a good looking road tyre which I still think
would have been OK (it's always wet or cold here!). There are many other good choices, but you need to choose the ideal size/s FIRST.
Another nice looking Yoko is ES 100 (dir.), and after that I would pick AC 01 (assym.)
If I was looking at tyres for 15 x 6 wheels I would look at 195/55 x 15 all round with 595mm OD. Yoko make an ES100 (directional) good-looking
road/dry bitumen tyre in that size. But, If clearance too tight would otherwise get 185/60 x 15 with OD 603mm = Yoko AC 01 ("C drive") - probably
better in wet.
[ Edited on 7-7-2006 by BRUTUS ]
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ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
|
|
|
wombatone
A.k.a.: Michael
Seriously Crusin Dubber
Posts: 167
Threads: 41
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| posted on July 7th, 2006 at 06:47 PM |
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I was planing to using 195/60/R15 Pirelli Dragons on 6”x 15 at the moment, as I have a set a sponsor gave me for the Ampol. The only problem was I
could not get them to fit the front of my car. I tried several off set and rim sizes but had no luck. This is why I have decided to go with Aero
guards. Have order a set for the front and rear but unsure if I will use the rears straight away, as I can already fit 195 /65 r15 under the rear at
the moment. Have also order the dropped spindles and have been told they increase the camber by +1 positive. How are people getting more neg. on
there front ends?
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BRUTUS
A.k.a.: et tu, Brute
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Posts: 255
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Registered: February 8th, 2006
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| posted on July 9th, 2006 at 11:53 AM |
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I've a book by Keith Seume in which he says that d/spindles "can" increase the track - maybe this would add even more width? Decided we didn't
need dropped spindles, the front beam adjusters were enough. I would not want more track/width at front as tyres are quite close to the guards even
with the f/glass wide ones!! I decided after considering, just to use standard brakes, as for hillclimbs you only usually NEED them at the end of the
run! Discs are probably a good idea tho for earilier beetle if you are running at tracks other than hillclimbs.
ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on July 9th, 2006 at 04:43 PM |
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Discs don't always increase the track - the four-stud/link pin ones don't (as far as I know). Fibreglass is a no-go for many race classes so do
your homework re guards
Pay your debts, CxxT
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humpty
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| posted on July 9th, 2006 at 10:33 PM |
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Not sure what you are doing for disc brakes on the front, but I do know that when you use TI-TIII OEM disc's modded to fit the LP beam, you do add
some track.... Most of the modern aftermarket kits don't add track..... If you do want to run CB's drpspindles you will add another 13mm per
side.... I wouldn't run wider guards on my cars, as I don't see the need (and I don't like the look!).... I have always been able to get plenty of
tyre under the stock guards..... And yes before you ask... I do run my cars in motorsport.... Classic rallys, hillclimbs, sprints and autokhana's...
All on bitumen.....
On my last LP bug I ran adjusters, TIII disc brakes and 6" wide FUCH alloys with 195/50-15's... No problem.... You must run extra caster and you can
dial in a little extra camber with some creative shimming on the LP!.... On the rear, I ran 215-60's on 7" FUCH's with short axles...... Understeer
was present at slower speeds, but at high speed it was very tractable.... On my current car, I run homemade 205PCD 4WDisc brakes, adjusters, CB
drpspindles, 4" narrowed beam and 5" wide RADAR's all round (145/55-15 frt and 205/60-15 rr)..... the ET of the RADAR's are pretty crappy at 20,
but I like the look.... Not sure how a tyre as small as these conti's will go at the track, but as they are a modern design, they should be ok.... We
shall see!!!..... If you run a FWD (45 or better) offset you'll get a lot more rim under the car... I have had a 7" wide rim under a stock front
guard with a 205/50-17 tyre..... I ran 225/40's on the rear.... All under stock guards.... That car handled VERY well!
If you wanna run steel rims, just get the offset built into the rim that you want, to get it all under the guards..... Dont go to wide in track....
You'll upset the car way too much and you could also start killing wheel bearings too.... Just remember... Lower profile = faster turn in, more
twitch and harsher ride, higher profile = slower steering responce, more side wall movement and a spongier ride.
At the track.... I ran around 45psi in the front and 28psi in the rear for autokhana's and around 45psi all round for sprints and hillclimbs....
These are ball park numbers here... I had to play with them a little depending on track conditions....
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wombatone
A.k.a.: Michael
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| posted on July 10th, 2006 at 09:07 PM |
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Thanks for the advice and tips, I’m really just building the car up to have some fun in and learn a bit more about setting up a bug for racing, so
I’m not to concerned with classes at this stage. Just seeing what you can get out of a humble bug. I have decided in order to keep using my disc I
will go with wide guards and dropped spindles and gust see how it goes. After all they are just bolt on parts and if it dose not work I can always
take them off.
I’ve been told that drop spindle increase your positive camber by 1 deg. Who has set up a beam with an intentional bend in it to get more neg.
camber on the front, and how did you do it?
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VWCOOL
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| posted on July 10th, 2006 at 10:46 PM |
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No, drop spindles - some - widen your track by One Inch, not caster or whatever by one degree
Don't need drop spindles to make it handle - a selecta-drop in one tube will be enough
Pay your debts, CxxT
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humpty
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| posted on July 10th, 2006 at 11:51 PM |
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As I stated, the CB drop spindles (I wouldn't use any other brand) will add to the track width only, they will not add to camber.... Camber on a LP
beam is set via shim adjustment.... If you want to add more camber than is possible with shim shuffling, then you can do as the 356 boys do and bend
the trailing arms.... But by doing this, you will end up with a car that will be very heavy to steer, will potentially have LP bind problems and may
need regular rebuilds.... I dont think it is really nessasary to go to that extent.... A nicely setup LP/swingaxle bug can be made to handle very well
with very little effort.... BJ/IRS is better out of the box, but LP/Swinger can be tweeked very effectively....
You will be suprised what can be done with a good wheel/tyre setup, combined with quality gas shocks (I used GR2's on the rear and Koni oils on the
front) and a front swaybar.... At the very least this will present a very responsive car... Lower the suspension, use suspension limiters front and
rear with adjustable bumpstops and springplate retainers, add some bumpsteer bushes to the outer tierods and you will be getting a very tunable
car.... It wont cost you a bomb to do it either....
Problably about the same cost as a set of aero guards actually!
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