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 The_Bronze.
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 12:29 PM |
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Can you run your VW on Water?
Legitimate question.
Many websites claim you can but I have learned the hard way that you should believe nothing you read (particularly on the web) and only half of what
you see.
My parents always said the "...if it sounds to good to be true" but still I ask you tech gurus this-
Can you supplement your VW on hydrogen and oxygen from water?
Some relevant links:
http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans.htm
http://water4gas.com/2books.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkegEX0oQk
http://www.greentechgazette.com/index.php/hydrogen-cars/run-your-car-on-water/
http://www.waternogas.com/
..and about 1,320,000 more pages
[size=4]Bronze.[/size]
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555bug
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 01:58 PM |
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you can build a hydrogen fuel cell that is a big battery powered by water. Then put in an electric engine 
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PurpleT3
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 02:06 PM |
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law of physics: There is no such thing as free energy.
In petrol the energy is stored as chemical energy in the molecular bonds. Energy is released when the petrol is burned, as the final products (CO2 +
H2O) have less energy than the the petrol. ie final state has less energy than starting state so difference is released and used to turn engine. But
around 70% of energy released is lost as heat, noise etc and is not turned into kinetic energy.
With this water as fuel bullshit you are raising the water to a higher energy state (HHO) by adding energy in the form of electricity, you then burn
it and turn it back into H2O, releasing the energy you just added. So, even in a perfect system there is no net energy change to use to turn the
engine, all the energy you liberate is required to create more fuel (HHO). This gets even worse in the real world as each time you change state you
loose some energy, when you look at how many changes of state there are between water as fuel and turning the engine, you have a lot of losses.
Where does the energy to electrolyse the water come from? the battery
Where does the energy to charge the battery come from? the generator (or alternator)
Where does the energy to spin the gen/alt come from? the engine
Where does the energy to spin the engine come from? petrol (or diesel)
I'm sure somebody can give a more scientifiic explanation, but this is shit any high school physics student should know.
Ain't nothin' like the wind in your hair.
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The_Bronze.
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 02:07 PM |
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I have read about Hydrogen Fuel Cells but the technology is too expensive to retrofit and supply fuel (Via stations) to mainstream users.
Another couple of interesting links:
Historical:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIkHZToNqqw&feature=related
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer
[size=4]Bronze.[/size]
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The_Bronze.
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 02:16 PM |
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Before this heats up as I can see there is going to be two side to the coin here I should ask people to keep it topical and not personal.
I have a fair understanding that perpetual motion cannot exist although there are people playing with magnets that would like to argue this but still
there are so many average ordinary Joes claiming that savings are being made and they don't seem to be getting paid off by some internet scam.
I have been reading about the Aptera car and they are claiming mileages of 120 miles per gallon by converting petrol energy into electricity for
propulsion.
I guess the best way to find out would be to try it myself however I thought it would be a good idea to ask some people here first to see what the
consensus might be before I have a go.
B
Link- http://www.aptera.com
[size=4]Bronze.[/size]
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555bug
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 02:45 PM |
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i was reading about a long distance race and the car returned over 5500km/L wich sounds rather good a lot better than the 12km/l my civic gets
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PurpleT3
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 02:54 PM |
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Sorry, I didn't mean to offend and didn't mean anything personal.
There's a big difference between filling a car with hydrogen and burning that and trying to create the hydrogen you are going to burn on board.
As I originally said, an internal combustion engine is only about 30% efficient at best. So if we can get 30-35MPG out of a conventiional internal
combustion engine, if we can improve the efficiency we could get at least 3x the mileage. So 100MPG is possible, we just have to figure out a better
way to use the energy in the petrol.
Just remember, there is no free energy. Even hydrogen fuel cells require large amounts of energy to make the hydrogen in the first place.
Ain't nothin' like the wind in your hair.
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rocknrob
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 02:55 PM |
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every speck of energy we have today originally came from the "big bang"...i dunno what they used before that
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The_Bronze.
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 04:01 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by PurpleT3
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend and didn't mean anything personal...
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No need to apologize and I didn't take it personally. You just made me realize that this could become a holden V ford or IBM V Mac sorta argument and
my intention was not to create an argument, simply fish for information.
I appreciate your input and opinion.
Rocknrob - Can't answer that one either but I'm sure there are people out there trying to find out as we speak.
[size=4]Bronze.[/size]
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Baja Wes
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| posted on June 25th, 2008 at 04:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by PurpleT3
As I originally said, an internal combustion engine is only about 30% efficient at best. So if we can get 30-35MPG out of a conventiional internal
combustion engine, if we can improve the efficiency we could get at least 3x the mileage. So 100MPG is possible, we just have to figure out a better
way to use the energy in the petrol.
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These terms aren't really related. MPG fuel economy is influenced by engine efficiency, but it's not the main factors.
The main factors in MPG is the weight and wind resistance of the vehicle.
For example, I have a Petrol VW Passat, it can get above 40mpg on the highway, because it's coefficient of drag is 0.27 (very good).
Current turbo-diesel smaller and lighter volkswagens are pushing the 50mpg mark (which is better than what these crappy hybrid cars like the Prius are
getting).
My motorcycle doesn't have an efficient motor, has terrible aerodynamics (probably over 0.7 - as the most aerodynamic motor cycles are only 0.56),
but gets over 50mpg. That's because it's light.
So that Aptera isn't really that impressive. I mean the thing is basically a slightly bigger 2-seat solar car. Very light with very low drag. It
should have fantastic fuel economy.
I have an old VW Beetle ad where VW take the p*ss out of the other car manufacturers fuel economy claims by stripping down a beetle, putting a jockey
in to drive, and achieving a fantastic fuel economy figure.
In Australia most of the electricity comes from coal fired power stations. So electric cars over here are essentially coal powered cars.
Hydrogen has exactly the same problem at the moment. The hydrogen is made from electricity which mainly comes from coal fired power stations. So again
hydrogen cars are essentially coal powered cars.
The only way for this to change is to either put huge amounts of money into renewable energy (wind / solar) or the public learns to accept that
nuclear is the easy way to large amounts of low emissions / pollutants electricity.
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ancientbugger
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| posted on June 26th, 2008 at 06:07 PM |
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Not exactly running on water but water injection was touted back in the 70's and early 80's not instead of petrol but in addition to it and I
believe it was used in Formula 1. The reasoning behind it was for fuel economy because only about 50% of the fuel going in was actually used through
detonation and so water vapour going in would take the place of the unused fuel and also cool the combustion chamber. As it didn't stick around too
long I guess it didn't work.....then again the 6 wheeled Elf Tyrrell disappeared without a trace as well
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Baja Wes
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| posted on June 28th, 2008 at 08:31 PM |
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Water injection was used to control detonation, and some old skool turbo set-ups have small amounts of water injection under boost. I am not totally
sure how it worked, but I am guessing that as the mixture compresses the water would turn to steam and the latent heat of vapourisation of that steam
would help keep the air / fuel mixture a little cooler so it didn't detonate as easily.
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bajachris88
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| posted on June 28th, 2008 at 08:43 PM |
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thats clever!
Takes the ping outta dat one.
There is a story going around about the hydrogen powered rail buggy in the US that Meyer's had designed and invented... Regardless, as it is said
though, u need electricity to obtain hydrogen, and as said too, where do we get our electricity from.
But the story was intersting anyways, if anyone has a link, please do share. If anyone has heard what i am talkin bout.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
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New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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bajachris88
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| posted on June 28th, 2008 at 08:47 PM |
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COM'ON! LCA MAAAAANNNNNNNN
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Wag67
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| posted on June 29th, 2008 at 05:18 AM |
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There is a kit available that turns water into hydrogen and is injected into your air filter. it draws a minimum of 6 amps from your battery. It is a
small amount and does help with better fuel economy. Up here in Brisbane you can get one for about $70. I know a guy at work who has one fitted and
swears by it but i don't know if anyone has tried it on a vw
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Baja Wes
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| posted on June 29th, 2008 at 11:08 AM |
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http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1802932.html?page=4
That link mentions the water injection, and it also mentions one of the hydrogen generators.
Manufacturers claims "AquaTune is like no other water injection system in that it is, in actuality, a fuel cell hydrogen processor. It produces
hydrogen-rich bubbles before being introduced into the engine draft." and "25 percent increase in fuel economy and up to a 30 percent increase in
horsepower. "
Popular Mechanics test result "With the AquaTune adjusted according to the instructions, the test truck gave us 20 fewer horsepower and about a 20
percent poorer fuel economy."
The problem with water injection on a motor that doesn't need it is that it has a negative effect. Cooling the combustion temperatures results in
less power and economy. Your engine should be run as hot as possible to get the best economy. The Davies Craig water pumps have a feature to assist
with this, they have an "economy" setting, where it slows the water pump to raise engine temperatures and get better economy, and a "power"
setting where it keeps the engine cooler so it doesn't overheat when getting thrashed.
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Joel
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| posted on June 29th, 2008 at 07:21 PM |
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heres that old add Wes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XUKOUbp_PA
water injection can lead to improved fuel economy if setup right
i started to set it up on my bug so i could run more boost but hit a few obstackles i havent bothered sorting yet
but theres some really good info on a bloke call robert manns website
check it out
http://www.dave-cushman.net/misc/mannject.html
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Baja Wes
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| posted on June 30th, 2008 at 09:57 AM |
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Thanks for finding that ad.
Here's an excellent history / description of water injection from a reputable looking company. They only recommend it for boosted applications. Be
careful of slightly NSFW photo down the bottom of the page in the DIY section;
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
And a whole forum dedicated to the subject if your bored. I had a quick look in the economy section, and there didn't appear to be any evidence of
better economy with water injection;
http://www.waterinjection.info/
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squizy
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| posted on June 30th, 2008 at 10:01 AM |
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I reckon you could run your car on water for about 15-20 metres. It depends on your angle of entry and how fast you're going. 
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Baja Wes
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| posted on June 30th, 2008 at 10:49 AM |
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like this;
http://www.idkwtf.com/videos/latest-videos/jeep-drives-on-water-top-gear
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squizy
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| posted on June 30th, 2008 at 12:05 PM |
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ha ha. Yes an oldy but a goody. Only in Iceland.
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tedpack
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| posted on July 5th, 2008 at 05:11 AM |
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Tested myself. Running my car on water. Great, smaller expenses, better mileage. Ever wondered converting car to run on water? http://convertcartorunonwater.info/ |
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Joel
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| posted on July 5th, 2008 at 08:59 AM |
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oh wow thanks awefully for sharing
we'd all just love to see the results from ur testing...
spam off jerk
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eraser
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| posted on July 14th, 2008 at 11:56 PM |
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Now i did some heavy research into this a few months back, Back in WW2 they had tanks and trucks that ran entirely on water (with salt iirc) that got
turned to hydrogen and then put into a modified engine other reports stated it was a water and somethign called naptha. But i also remember the
downside of the burning hydrogen/water was that it oxidizes the metal and makes it brittle.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on July 15th, 2008 at 12:30 PM |
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Naphtha is like a fuel oil. So I assume that is what the tanks were really running on.
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dekkerboy
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| posted on December 14th, 2009 at 02:22 PM |
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I built my self a hho drycell and it was capeable of pumping out 1.3 lpm so i dont know but it is possible.
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