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 DylanTheDubber
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| posted on November 20th, 2011 at 06:45 PM |
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Rear lowered bugs - info and pics please
Hey, I have lowered the front of the bug and now wanna lower the back to match front ride hight. Im running 14" / 15" stockers so how many mm low
should i go? any pics and advice/info would be great. Please put up your pics for a bit of an idea for me aswell.
From Dylan
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 helbus
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| posted on November 20th, 2011 at 09:23 PM |
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50mm
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68AutoBug
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 posted on November 20th, 2011 at 11:26 PM |
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Hi Chris
Have You read how to do this on Rob & Dave's website..
excellent reading..
http://www.vw-resource.com
I have new rubber bushes to fit one day and chromed torsion bar brackets....
I don't know if I will lower My car though...
1500s had soft torsion bars....
many people say one large spline and two small splines?? or similar???
one large spline is too much by itself...
cheers
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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beetleboyjeff
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 10:08 AM |
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I have done mine a number of times, and I am going to give Dylan a hand next weekend. I usually measure the distance from the end of the spring plate
to the body as it sits now, then weigh the car down to where I want it (well, I have usually lifted mine, but same principle) and re-measure the
distance. When I release the spring plates from the torsion bar housing and let it hang down, I measure the new distance to the body, then subtract
(or add if lifting) the difference in the 2 measurements I did at the start.
I have found when taking the spring plates off the torsion bars, it is hard to tell which end of the torsion bar is comming out of the splines - the
inner or the outer - so it is often hard to just move it one inner or one outer spline if you 'lose your place'. If you move the outside end one
spline forward, and the inside end one spline back (there are a different number of splines on each end), you change the angle by 50' of a degree
(from memory), so you can keep moving inside and outside until the measurment from the end of the spring plate to the body is what you had worked out.
I do this to both sides, then look across under the car to see if both spring plates line up (are in wind) before I load any of them back into the
torsion bar housing.
If anyone has other ideas or info, I am only too pleased to hear them.
From your ole' mate Jeff
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bitemeoz
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 10:26 AM |
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I just did mine and did 2 inners with 2.5inch dropped spindles at the front. looks the goods I reckon. when i did it i did what Jeff suggested and
moved the splines and then basically just checked that both sides sat at the same angle before bolting all back up. Took me 2 hours and I am an IT guy
not a mechanic so must be easy for anyone that knows anything about cars.
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empi
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 02:21 PM |
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Dont be a nancy and slamm the car!!
"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you." - Anonymous  |
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Aussie Dubbin
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 03:01 PM |
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Have you tried the chain and jack method?
I find that getting them off is the most time comsuming part. Then set it to the height youthink will work and make sure the other side is the
same.
I use a jack and chain to get the tension back into the arm without lifting the car. Also some threaded rod allows us to pull the plate back on over
new rubbers. That way you get it all done up and then just loosen off one rod at a time and replace with original bolts. Yes it also work with car on.
Just remove 5 or so of the guard securing bolts.
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beetleboyjeff
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 03:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Aussie Dubbin
I use a jack and chain to get the tension back into the arm without lifting the car.
Also some threaded rod allows us to pull the plate back on over new rubbers. That way you get it all done up and then just loosen off one rod at a
time and replace with original bolts.
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I didn't know the jack and chain method when I had done them before, but I have read of it since, and had every intention of doing it that way. I
wish I had known before though. :-)
I had not used threaded rod pull the plate back in, but I do use longer bolts - same thing I guess.
From your ole' mate Jeff
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vwo60
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 04:31 PM |
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beetleboy jeff, that is the way i do it, that way you can get the ride height correct the first time, buy your self the correct tool to put the spring
plate back onto the stop, it is a lot safer than the heath Robinson set ups that you see being used,
http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC000116.html
Be carefull about lowering the car to far as it will decrease the wheel travel and your car will be sitting on the bump stops, i found the best
compromise for me is to run about 1 degree of negative camber, the car still rides well and there is enough wheel travel to absorb bumps in mid
corner, tyre wear is still acceptable
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Aussie Dubbin
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 04:51 PM |
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If you have a spare $300 bucks put in bigger diamater torsion bars
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beetleboyjeff
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 08:30 PM |
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It is not my car - I am giving Dylan a hand.
I have done it about half a dozen times over the years.
Thanks for the link vwo60, that looks like a good bit of gear.
From your ole' mate Jeff
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surfpig
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 09:12 PM |
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a step by step guide of how i did it, how everyone does it  (two
splines)
http://s3.postimage.org/myq1ep6sj/springplate1.jpg
http://s4.postimage.org/9ohvp5f9p/springplate2.jpg
http://s4.postimage.org/rwepq1ifh/springplate3.jpg
http://s3.postimage.org/vm7u6ga03/springplate4.jpg
http://s3.postimage.org/jznq5bmoz/springplate5.jpg
http://s3.postimage.org/9s56sx0gz/springplate6.jpg
http://s4.postimage.org/w9mfzy5xp/springplate7.jpg
http://s3.postimage.org/kvk7krwdf/springplate8.jpg
http://s3.postimage.org/evwgh4bkz/springplate9.jpg
Im so happy I could just shit.
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vwo60
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 09:20 PM |
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it must ride and handle well.
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surfpig
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 09:25 PM |
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"Rear lowered bugs - info and pics please"
he asked, he received.
Im so happy I could just shit.
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beetleboyjeff
A.k.a.: Jeff Walsh
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| posted on November 21st, 2011 at 09:30 PM |
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One problem I can see is step 2 - Dylan has IRS on the back of his S bug, so it has the has the longer torsion bars with the short spring plates that
have the extensions out over the end of the torsion bars - you can't see the end of the torsion bar to mark it like in the photo.
Otherwise, great photos - thanks.
From your ole' mate Jeff
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Joel
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| posted on November 22nd, 2011 at 08:35 AM |
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I put a spline chart in the rear lowering how to thread.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=78303
I gotta laugh when people go to all the effort of the jack and chain method or that spring plate compressor tool.
THere is such an easy and cheap way around it, see the link.
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DylanTheDubber
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| posted on November 22nd, 2011 at 08:54 AM |
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Thanks Joel,
Will be using your thread!
From Dylan
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vwo60
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| posted on November 22nd, 2011 at 09:35 AM |
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At work we have to carry out a hazard analisis on all jobs, if i applied it to angle iron method i would have serious issues with lifting the spring
plate back onto the stop use the jack, it lifts the load off one of the stands and there is a possibility that the car could fall of the stands, the
factory tool has no such issues as all the force is applied between two points on the car and has no issues with it slipping of and becoming a
projectile, the factory tool is the simplest and safest method.
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Joel
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| posted on November 22nd, 2011 at 11:46 AM |
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That's very impressive but most people working on their cars at home don't have to play by overly cautious OH&S rules that apply in work
environments, just some common sense applied is all it takes.
By extending the spring plate length with the angle iron you're changing the amount of leverage needed to lift the spring plate up to such a small
amount that at that length I can almost do it by hand but I have a rooted back and I'm just too lazy.
there is no way in hell you could lift the car when there is that much mechanical advantage on the spring plate, I could lift the whole back of the
car with one hand if that was the case.
It may happen if you were doing to a floor pan only but all you would do is use a longer bit of angle iron.
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vwo60
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| posted on November 22nd, 2011 at 01:07 PM |
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Unfortunatly common sense is in short supply and those OH&s rules do protect people by catering to the lowest common denominator, DIY injuries are
a largest contribuator to the inpatients at the local hospital. still concider the factory tool the safest
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Joel
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| posted on November 22nd, 2011 at 01:35 PM |
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I hear what you're saying, and I have no doubt the factory tool is the safest just not everyone owns one.
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 matberry
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| posted on November 22nd, 2011 at 02:23 PM |
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The long lever doesn't change the lifting moment on the car. The load the torsion bar exerts to the chassis doesn't change, therefore the long lever
method is only useable on lower ride heights where there is less bar preload to overcome to then slide the spring plate onto the stop. Stock or higher
than stock and the car will get unstable on stands as said, so the factory jack method is for me too.
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mickya
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| posted on November 26th, 2011 at 08:22 AM |
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Not everyone can afford factory tools, however everyone has some angle laying around! I dont see using this method as unsafe, as long as the angle is
of good length to not lift the car off of the stand. It certainly what ill be doing when i lower my car, and im a technician in the mines where safety
is freakin crazy important dude
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Joel
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| posted on November 26th, 2011 at 08:35 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
The long lever doesn't change the lifting moment on the car. The load the torsion bar exerts to the chassis doesn't change, therefore the long lever
method is only useable on lower ride heights where there is less bar preload to overcome to then slide the spring plate onto the stop. Stock or higher
than stock and the car will get unstable on stands as said, so the factory jack method is for me too.
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If you had a 2 spline lift I'd agree with you but mine at stock height with the angle iron at the length (about 500mm) requires very minimal effort
to lift the spring plate up off the stop, most people could do it by hand.
There is definately no risk of lifting the car up.
Making the angle iron abit longer again would lessen the effort further.
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vwo60
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| posted on November 26th, 2011 at 12:05 PM |
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You could make the angle 10 meters long, it will still the same force measured at the torsion bar to put the spring plate back on the stop, that does
not change
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Joel
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| posted on November 27th, 2011 at 07:46 AM |
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Of coarse it doesn't change, that's not the point I'm trying to make.
What I'm talking about comes back to simple mathematics.
The further you come out from a pivot point the more mechanical advantage you get.
Like being on a see saw with the fat kid when you were a kid
What is changing is how much force you need to apply to the angle iron to lift the spring plate up off the stop.
If you put a trolley jack directly under the spring plate then yes you will lift the car off the axle stands.
Extend the spring plate with the angle iron and move the jack further out this wont happen.
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MISS VDUB
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| posted on November 27th, 2011 at 07:54 AM |
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Haha factory tools the safest? Far from it. My VW's have a factory standard jack (widow maker), wouldn't use it if my life depended on it.
All options should be considered with doing any job, and other factors considered such as physical ability (eg: if you have a bad back, other methods
and aids may need to be used to assist in completing the job)
Agree with Joel 100% on this one.
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vwo60
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| posted on November 27th, 2011 at 10:08 AM |
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Joel, sorry to disagree with you but it requires the same force at the spring plate to lift it over the stop, the only thing that has changed is the
force applied to the end of the angle , it will lift the car by the same amount to locate the spring plate back on the stop, the spring rate has not
changed only the effort required, a repro factory tool costs about $30 US and has none of the issues of above as all the force is contained within the
car, as for the old vw jack, if you follow VW's recommendations and use it on flat level solid ground with the car wheels chocked it will do the job
every time, i just would not trust the jacking point
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Joel
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| posted on November 27th, 2011 at 09:02 PM |
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Alright I give up, this is just going round in circles, you use what works for you, I'll stick to whats worked for me.
And yes those jacks haven't earned a world wide recognized name widow makers for no reason.
I mean come on, metal on metal friction with a 1" round pipe to hold up half a tonne of car. 
I chucked mine in the bin years ago, scissor jacks are much safer.
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lauzboy
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| posted on November 29th, 2011 at 05:01 PM |
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Sorry if this seems like thread hi-jacking...
Joel is correct. I'm a mechanical engineer and it's simple sum of forces and moments (torque).
The torque required to rotate the torsion bar to lift the spring plate over the stop is lets say 100Nm (just using nummbers here to illustrate...no
idea if they're real!). You could achieve this by applying 100N (approx 10kgs) at 1m. Or alternatively 10N (1kg) at 10m. This is the sum of the
moments about the torsion bar.
The sum of the vertical forces though is the weight of the car minus the applied vertical force. It's when this gets to 0 or negative do you start to
get problems. So Joel is correct by applying a longer bar he can lift the spring plate with little force whilst having the car not lift. The other
method of chaining the jack to the car essentially "grounds" the car to the jack. In this method the vertical force applied by the jack is more than
the weight of the car.
vwo60 - your interpretation of forces and torque is slightly wrong. Yes the TORQUE of the torsion bar is the same, but the FORCE required to exert
this torque varies with distance. The applied torque will not lift the car off its jack stands, only excessive vertical force.
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