| [ Total Views: 1820 | Total Replies: 20 | Thread Id: 94813 ] |
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 DubbyDo
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| posted on January 16th, 2012 at 03:15 AM |
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Do I need machining to a 1600 to go bigger
So I just found that my Bug motor is a 1600. Do I need to have machining done to the block to go bigger than 1641? And if I do whats involved? I would
like to build up a motor around the 2L mark(bigger is better)
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 matberry
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| posted on January 16th, 2012 at 08:01 AM |
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Yes, for bigger cylinders, 90.5 or 94mm gives 1776 and 1915 and both require machining to the case to fit into the case. For more
displacement/options, a larger crankshaft can also be used with nearly any cylinder size, so many combinations are possible, each with differing
pro's and con's, but basically speaking, up to 78mm stroke crankshaft requires little internal case clearancing. 78x90.5 gives 2007cc and this is a
very strong combo, or 78x94 gives 2165cc which is also quite common. These days, over 2.5 liters is possible, (bigger is better) but heaps of work
just getting everything inside the case  .
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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Governor
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| posted on January 16th, 2012 at 09:12 AM |
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As Matt said above, if your machining for the barrels you might as well go a bigger crank.
I prefer 2007, but that's just me.
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68Volkaru
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| posted on April 11th, 2012 at 09:47 PM |
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I too am looking at this option - going bigger.....
Is there somewhere that we can read all this? or do i have to read through every thread that talks bout engines?
I have enough knowledge to do an engine build, but it is all the numbers and sizes that i dont know.
Sorry to snipe this thread, but it seemed like the best place to ask.
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car. Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you take the wall with you. |
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Bizarre
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| posted on April 12th, 2012 at 09:45 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 68Volkaru
Is there somewhere that we can read all this?
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Far from Gospel but John Connolly certainly is a good place to start
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-technical-articles/
LOTS of info there
Futue te ipsum!!!
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bajachris88
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| posted on April 12th, 2012 at 10:08 AM |
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On this subject, usually on average how much does it cost to get a stripped case machined to 94mm and all bored appropriately for fresh bearings?
(well i guess line boring is the only sort you could do without including the crank)??
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Bizarre
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| posted on April 12th, 2012 at 11:53 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
how much does it cost to get a stripped case machined to 94mm and all bored appropriately for fresh bearings?
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as a guide
http://media.wix.com/ugd/e5382896a4f90311fbf83763dc582cf9.ugd?dn=Machining%20...
Futue te ipsum!!!
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bajachris88
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| posted on April 12th, 2012 at 12:49 PM |
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Thanks mate, thats tops !
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Joel
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| posted on April 12th, 2012 at 01:58 PM |
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It costs alittle more but it's worth thinking about getting a new case that's already bored for 94s.
Atleast then you're not dealing an old worn case that's been through god only knows what in the last 40 odd years.
I noticed a few weeks back George is now selling new genuine Brazilian blocks bored out to 94mm by Stan for bit over $800.
Stan decks the cases properly which is something you really gotta do when boring for 94s as most of the original sealing ledge is knocked out.
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Smiley
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| posted on April 12th, 2012 at 06:45 PM |
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Yep. If I was building a new engine I'd be going with a new case.
The thing with mag cases is they will crack, it's just a matter of when. And after they've done a million of so heat cycles over 40 years they are a
lot closer to this point.
These are good,
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=185
And Alloy is even better,
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1230
Smiley
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on April 12th, 2012 at 07:43 PM |
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I would definitely go for a new case to build a new engine. Alloy for a preference.
I would only use magnesiim if it was for a racing application and weight was an issue.
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waveman1500
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| posted on April 12th, 2012 at 10:13 PM |
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So, if you want a big bore kit ($400), you also need some machining ($300), but while you're there you may as well get a stroker crank ($300), then a
new case ($800) and a set of rods to go with it! Soon enough you will need new heads, carbs and exhaust to flow all the extra air for that big motor
and you have spent $6-10 grand! And don't forget the gearbox and clutch either!
This snowball effect is the reason that I don't want to open up my nice stock 1600TP. As soon as you think about doing one little modification, you
end up with a whole new engine!
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DubbyDo
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| posted on April 23rd, 2012 at 11:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
It costs alittle more but it's worth thinking about getting a new case that's already bored for 94s.
Atleast then you're not dealing an old worn case that's been through god only knows what in the last 40 odd years.
I noticed a few weeks back George is now selling new genuine Brazilian blocks bored out to 94mm by Stan for bit over $800.
Stan decks the cases properly which is something you really gotta do when boring for 94s as most of the original sealing ledge is knocked out.
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I saw those, definitely think thats the way to go, especially living here where the nearest machine shop is a 12hr drive!! The only
question I have is why would someone pay for machining to be done which would increase displacement to, say 2007 when 2165 or 1776 to 1835 would cost
no extra (machining wise) Are there advantages to going the smaller size barrels? Looking through the various retailers pricelists there doesnt seem
to be too much at all in them. I guess when I build my new engine I want the best bang for my bucks and if a slightly smaller piston or crank size is
better then I'll take it. Cheers for all the comments, advice, its been a great learning curve- servicing Landcruisers for 20 years doesnt teach you
much about anything!!!
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matberry
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| posted on April 24th, 2012 at 08:30 AM |
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The larger sizes have thinner wall thickness. The thicker cylinder walls are better at keeping the cylinder perfectly round as the temperature
changes. 90.5 mm is considered the best compromise between large diameter and cylinder stability.
The biggest hassle with increasing displacement, whether done by stroke or bore, is that as the size increases so does the compression ratio. A high
compression ratio creates a hotter running engine, so whenever an engine is rebuilt and especially when it's been modified, the compression needs to
be checked and setup correctly for long engine life.
It's not unusual for a 'thrown together' large displacement VW engine to be 'worn out' in as few as 10 000km, build it right and 100 000+km is
easily achievable.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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DubbyDo
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| posted on April 30th, 2012 at 09:15 PM |
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Thanks Matt, thats cleared up some things for me. Playing with V8s and Datto engines you need to up the compression considerably to start making the
numbers. After reading a few Volksy mags I was wondering why (for street driven bugs) a compression ratio of nearly 9.0:1 was specially mentioned.
Thats really helped a lot in my decision making, havent quite nailed the final combo yet but am getting closer. When funds permit am going to build an
engine myself (using this forum as much as possible) and see how it goes, if I can get 120hp I will be stoked, if it holds together I will be even
happier
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waveman1500
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| posted on April 30th, 2012 at 11:27 PM |
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120hp is quite a lot out of a streetable bug engine. You're definitely getting into expensive territory there! From what I hear, you're looking at a
cost of $5-10 grand for that kind of power, and you'll never see that money again if you sell the car. Enough to buy you a Subaru conversion, a Chev
LS3 crate motor, or build a 400hp V8 of your choice. Certainly a lot more than I can afford to put into the engine bay of my bug at the moment. Good
luck to you and enjoy!
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matberry
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| posted on May 1st, 2012 at 07:38 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by waveman1500
120hp is quite a lot out of a streetable bug engine. You're definitely getting into expensive territory there! From what I hear, you're looking at a
cost of $5-10 grand for that kind of power, and you'll never see that money again if you sell the car. Enough to buy you a Subaru conversion, a Chev
LS3 crate motor, or build a 400hp V8 of your choice. Certainly a lot more than I can afford to put into the engine bay of my bug at the moment. Good
luck to you and enjoy!
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Oh, come on, he said 120, not 180.....yes it costs money, but only because most components are from the dark ages and need
replacing. You replace the block, heads, crank, cam and valve train also clutch, intake and exhaust systems and see how cheap your V8 is. 120 rwhp,
say 85-90 at the wheels, easily doable with the correct choice and assembly of components available these days.
And 120 will make your bug dust your 400hp V8 too.... 
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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waveman1500
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| posted on May 1st, 2012 at 10:04 AM |
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I didn't say it's not worth it Matt, just that I can't afford it!
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DubbyDo
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| posted on May 3rd, 2012 at 10:21 AM |
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Is there a formula to get you in the ballpark for what size carbs to use depending on displacement, revs etc?
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coletrickle
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| posted on May 3rd, 2012 at 10:55 PM |
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1585 cc 7.5-1 comp twin 45 dels 112hp ATW,2332cc 9.6 twin 48 ida's 140plus ATW 13.41@97(stay tuned for more)CLA hot street vw's driven daily raced
often rarely beaten by a daily driven anything.Although my stroker is heaps of fun I'd probally build a basic 1600 hot rod bottom end cw crank Vw
rods with arp bolts full flow and the like but put a real nice set of modified Vw heads and a nice set of carbs.I'd be surprised if done corectly
you wouldn't get your 120 hp. And a lot nicer on your wallet.
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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| posted on May 3rd, 2012 at 11:16 PM |
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Has anyone heard of those crazy 1680cc 88mm slip in piston kits?
The barrels slip into the normal bore at the case, but the barrel walls widen to (i could be wrong here) nearly 5mm thick!! as they use 92/90.5mm head
bore at top.
To have that capacity, that means crazy thin at bore, but super thick at head. Dunno what the thoughts are.
Machining the case or purchasing one pre-bored etc. would be the way to go still, as its tried and tested, but thought i would throw a spanner in the
works of thought and discussion.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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