| [ Total Views: 2249 | Total Replies: 70 | Thread Id: 95483 ] |
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 SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 10:23 AM |
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EJ22 or 1916cc?
Hey guys (and girls).
I've been looking into converting Zelda to an EJ22 and it'll end up costing me around $4,000. That isn't including my own labour of getting the
plumbing and all that done.
My question is, is it worth me spending that $4,000 on getting a 1916cc? Which will then just be a drop in replacement, with no need to modify
anything other that just mounting it in?
This is a serious issue as well, as I need to decide within the next couple of days what route to take. I've heard that a 1916cc can keep up with the
big boys, but surely nothing can beat the power of a N/A EJ22 when it comes to a Type 1 engine?
Any insight, anything, would be greatly appreciated!
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11CAB
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 10:38 AM |
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Look at it this way, you're comparing 1930's technology to 1990's technology
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 10:52 AM |
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My thoughts exactly. But is it worth such a massive conversion?
I won't be selling my car, no questions asked, so is it worth me just jumping the gun and do the Subaru conversion now or do I do a 1916cc and then
later on do the Subaru conversion?
My idea is to just do the conversion. But want to know other peoples suggestions/opinions before doing so.
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Craig S
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 11:05 AM |
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Well to me it all comes down to what you want from the car.
There is no doubt that having an EJ engine in it will make it more reliable, more economical and quieter, and usually with much more power. It will
add weight which will blunt the power improvement a little, and will change the handling, but there are many good reasons to go down that path
(including the potential of using a 5 speed, air con etc).
However, one of the reasons I haven't gone down that path (yet), is that I still struggle with why I wouldn't just go out and buy a Subaru rather
than doing it to the Beetle. I realise that an awful lot of people don't have that hang up and that it might be peculiar to me, but there is
something about an air cooled motor that makes it the heart and soul. One day I might do it, but at this stage the heart says no. My thoughts might be
influenced by the fact that my Beetle is my toy, and I have another car to drive everywhere. If the Beetle was my only car then I might be slightly
more pragmatic and less emotional about it.
So then, if you don't share my hangs up about whether it is air cooled or not AND you are confident that the cost of the conversion is realistic,
then it is an easy decision. EJ all the way.
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 Yogie
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 11:07 AM |
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Do a search on the topic as it has been covered many times in the past. At the end of the day though, it comes down to what YOU want more than
anything else as both have strengths and weaknesses.
Yogie
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Joel
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 11:23 AM |
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A subi conversion is a huge job and it's abit hard to put a $4k price tag on it, will probably cost more than that depending on how much you pay to
have done and the quality of the conversion or it may cost less, I reckon I could do mine for about $2.5k if I did it again cos I learned alot of
lessons first time round..
But by the same token $4k is not going to buy you much of a 1916, certainly not one that's gonna keep up with the big boys, work on double that
figure.
$4k barely builds a quality stock 1600 properly these days.
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Bizarre
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 11:45 AM |
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also consider the engineering requirements of going the EJ22 route.
Yes - a 1916 should be engineered as well, but...............................
Futue te ipsum!!!
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 11:50 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig S
Well to me it all comes down to what you want from the car.
There is no doubt that having an EJ engine in it will make it more reliable, more economical and quieter, and usually with much more power. It will
add weight which will blunt the power improvement a little, and will change the handling, but there are many good reasons to go down that path
(including the potential of using a 5 speed, air con etc).
However, one of the reasons I haven't gone down that path (yet), is that I still struggle with why I wouldn't just go out and buy a Subaru rather
than doing it to the Beetle. I realise that an awful lot of people don't have that hang up and that it might be peculiar to me, but there is
something about an air cooled motor that makes it the heart and soul. One day I might do it, but at this stage the heart says no. My thoughts might be
influenced by the fact that my Beetle is my toy, and I have another car to drive everywhere. If the Beetle was my only car then I might be slightly
more pragmatic and less emotional about it.
So then, if you don't share my hangs up about whether it is air cooled or not AND you are confident that the cost of the conversion is realistic,
then it is an easy decision. EJ all the way.
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I'm not looking at selling Zelda any time soon and she is going to be my daily for quick some time. Hence why I think going to the EJ is definitely
more of a choice for me.
Like you said, the possibility of adding in A/C is definitely a big bonus and having the quality of a new-technology engine, EFI, and all of that,
that is definitely a big plus for me.
I'm confident that I can definitely support the cost of the conversion and what not, I've found a few kits that actually would mean I wouldn't need
to make my own water hard lines and so forth, so I'm pretty confident I could get it done in a long weekend if I got a couple of mates around.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
A subi conversion is a huge job and it's abit hard to put a $4k price tag on it, will probably cost more than that depending on how much you pay to
have done and the quality of the conversion or it may cost less, I reckon I could do mine for about $2.5k if I did it again cos I learned alot of
lessons first time round..
But by the same token $4k is not going to buy you much of a 1916, certainly not one that's gonna keep up with the big boys, work on double that
figure.
$4k barely builds a quality stock 1600 properly these days.
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You're right Joel, we've been talking quite a bit in PM and I'm pretty sure that everything should be able to get done for just shy of $5,000. Now,
that to me is money well spent.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bizarre
also consider the engineering requirements of going the EJ22 route.
Yes - a 1916 should be engineered as well, but...............................
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I've asked around for some of the engineering requirements, I'm pretty sure that the only other major thing that will need to be done is a brake
upgrade, other than that it is just the normal does everything work.
Thanks guys for all the information and thoughts!
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snitz
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 11:51 AM |
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Yep you would be right on the money with the price of a 1916 Joel. I pick up the wifes car tommorrow with a brand new 1916, and all up it costed about
10k drive away including all ancilleries. Its true..you need to know what you want out of the car Seb..otherwise you'll waste your money in the wrong
areas and on the wrong parts..you would of spent a shit load of money and the car would probably still look the same..
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 12:03 PM |
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Snitz,
You're right, I've already spent a lot of cash on Zelda and she still looks like a beetle, and sounds like a beetle.
But you can see where I've spent the money. It has a sound system (definitely an upgrade from the previous speaker box) and I've gotten rid of the
torana taillights.
The only thing, money wise, that I've wasted I reckon is on the engine that I just put in her...
Hence why I'm tossing up just selling the engine and buying a half cut Liberty, grabbing everything out of that and dumping it into Zelda.
That's the plan anyway.
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 01:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Jak Rizzo
if u are going to go to all the trouble of putting a radiator in your beetle, put some decent power in the back to warrant the effort. it's actually
bugger all extra work to move the gearbox forward so that a twin cam WRX engine will fit neatly inside the stock bodywork.
I'm now up to 205'000klm's on my WRX conversion & it's the best thing I have done to my car in 20 years of ownership.
Otherwise, a nice 1916cc can be built quite cheap if u can build it yourself & search around & wait for the right price for parts.
Jak
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Jak,
Thanks for all the information, really appreciated!
Radiator installation shouldn't actually be that hard. Luckily I have the flat tire well and I think that will definitely give me an easier
installation. I've seen a few people do it where they chop out the rear parcel tray bit and have the radiator mounted there, but that wouldn't be
something I'd do to Zelda that's for sure...
The radiator will definitely be mounted in the front. I have found a website ( http://sharpbuilt.com.au ) that actually sell hard water line kits. I'll be in contact with them as soon as I have an
engine and radiator ready to install.
How much further did you move the gearbox forward to compensate for the DOHC WRX engine?
I don't want to modify the body work to fit the engine in the rear, so if it only takes cutting into the framehorn/tunnel (I think this is what it is
called) then I'll definitely consider doing such a thing. I'll probably end up doing it for the SOHC engine that will go in first, but it'll make
it easier for me in the long run when I do upgrade to a DOHC WRX engine.
I'm still keen to just do an EJ22 for now, but will definitely look into doing something a bit better later on. My main issue is that I'm on my
P1's still and I can't have a turbo powered car until I'm 25...
Which kinda sucks.
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 01:45 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Jak Rizzo
To move the gearbox forward the amount required was simply a matter of turning the standard rear mount around, cut off the existing front gearbox
mount & welding on a Berg style intermediatte mount, shorten the shift rod 2 inches from memory (it over 7 years ago that I did mine) & that
was it.
I was dreading it thinking that it was going to be bigger than ben hur but it pretty straight forward.
Sorry, I didn't realise that u are on your P's. If u intend on keeping your car for quite some time then maybe the EJ22 is worth considering.
regards
Jak
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Yeah, I did some quick research and it looks like it is possible to just chop the tunnel in a few inches and just move the gearbox forward a bit
more...
I've done a lot of research about the actual installation and it doesn't seem like that big of a job. With the right tools and frame of mind, it
could be a really simple job.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'll be more happy with an EJ22 than a 1916cc. I've got one lined up however, it's done about 175,000kms, wiring loom and
ECU all for $1,650.
I don't know if that is good or bad, what are your thoughts?
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kombibob
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 01:58 PM |
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What! Just for a ej22.. dude don't pay more than $700 for a good one.
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 02:07 PM |
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Yeah, they want $1,650 for everything...
Was a half cut for $1,400 and then $250 for the labour to get the engine, wiring loom, and ECU out...
I will keep my eyes on eBay and the sort for a cheap EJ22 then.
If anyone knows anyone, hit me up!
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Joel
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 02:10 PM |
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Yeah it's from a wreckers as a package loom/ecu etc.
They always charge like wounded bulls.
Still alot dearer than a donor car which you can buy for half of that and sell off the left over parts (gearbox, panels, interior, shell for scrap)
But you gotta have room and resources to do that.
What Jak said has merit.
Main reason I didn't go that way was I don't like the way the bumper mounts get cut out to clear the timing belt covers.
A simple tap up the arse by a P-plater txting while driving would cause alot more damage than it would normally.
Also I didn't want to lose the rear parcel tray.
You can get a lot of HP out of the N/A engines with some work.
Mine with a better header setup and some tweaked aftermarket management would easy make over 200hp but even at the 175hp it has now it's a hoot to
drive and scares alot of people
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 02:17 PM |
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Yessir, that is why it is going to cost a heap.
I found someone on Gumtree, $550 for the engine. I just sent them a text about matching wiring loom and ECU.
Will see what happens.
Yeah, I will stick with the standard gearbox position and just get a SOHC for now.
It is the only thing I can run for the next however many years until I'm 25.
I definitely don't want to lose the parcel tray, let alone the rear seat.
That's there as I have a small sister that I will take to and from school in it, and she's only allowed to sit in the rear of a car.
Joel, 150hp is a massive upgrade from a 36hp engine...
I don't need anything massive.
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 02:43 PM |
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Jak,
You wouldn't happen to have a build thread anywhere or any images of the actual engine placement and everything anywhere would you?
Would love to see what you've done in comparison to others.
Yeah, 175,000+ is a bit high for my liking too. Found one with a lot less somewhere which is cool.
Thanks again!
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 03:05 PM |
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Thanks Jak!
Damn those videos are good!
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matberry
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 03:13 PM |
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You have to ask ....... how come there's not more Subi's entered at WSID this weekend........
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 03:20 PM |
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I know that Joel is running an EJ25 block with EJ22 size heads because the EJ25 heads were too large to fit without body modifications...
I think I'll stick with the EJ22. Found one for $550 here in Adelaide, asked about wiring loom and ECU, just waiting for a reply now.
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 03:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
You have to ask ....... how come there's not more Subi's entered at WSID this weekend........
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It is definitely a fair point, I wouldn't enter mine into WSID when I have done the Subaru conversion...
Unless I was peer pressured into it. Otherwise, Zelda will just be a daily driver and that's about it. I wouldn't want to push her unless I had a
decent gearbox in there too.
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 03:51 PM |
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Alrighty.
For $700, I can get ECU, wiring loom and EJ22 with 222,000kms.
Has had timing belt replaced and water pump as well.
Is that a large amount of kilometres? What's the estimated maximum for a Subaru?
It'll be daily driven, but I only work five minutes from home. It could easily last me five more years I reckon...
What are your thoughts?
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AA003
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 04:44 PM |
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Is this any help?
Subaru Conversion For Sale
Have for sale Subaru kit, excess to requirements.
Sherman adaptor set-up, with 215mm clutch, all assembled.
EJ22 engine low km jap, plus another spare genuine 132,000km
Shotened loom, ECU, air flow meter, reversed air intake, manual.
All you need is Raditor and hoses
Asking $2000, can deliver within reason---
Geoff's Auto Studio 0407968021
gasyerra@westnet.com.au
Photos
Photo
Photo
I read it on samba, so it must be correct.
Sometimes Volkswagen dealers sell spare parts. Amazing isn't it!
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 05:06 PM |
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Have contacted email above.
Very keen.
Delivery to Adelaide?
Seems a better deal then just buying the engine and doing it all myself.
Keen, keen and more keen!
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vlad01
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 05:50 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SebastienPeek
Alrighty.
For $700, I can get ECU, wiring loom and EJ22 with 222,000kms.
Has had timing belt replaced and water pump as well.
Is that a large amount of kilometres? What's the estimated maximum for a Subaru?
It'll be daily driven, but I only work five minutes from home. It could easily last me five more years I reckon...
What are your thoughts?
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$700 ? really...... I didn't think they cost that much for 2nd hand engine with 200k+ on it
just searched on ebay, wow expensive for 2nd hand.
guess I have been spoiled rotten on 2nd engines then.  in Ks, quality
and price.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 06:10 PM |
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vlad01,
Yeah, very expensive for what they have on the clock.
I'll probably be going with what AA003 is selling.
Sounds like a great deal.
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Klaus
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 07:23 PM |
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ej25 with sohc heads then turbo it once your off your P's , i know of a ej22 kit thats coming up for sale but its from a bay window so flywheel is
228 all new rad from a t3 and exhaust all loom done and has been in car for a while , cranky kit , t3 expansion tank new vss think he's chasing
1500-2000
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 07:31 PM |
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Klaus,
Any images? Any contact information?
Depending on AA003 and what happens,
This will probably be runner up.
Thanks for the information mate!
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AA003
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 07:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Klaus
ej25 with sohc heads then turbo it once your off your P's
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Turbo or non turbo, you still can't drive it on Ps in NSW.
I read it on samba, so it must be correct.
Sometimes Volkswagen dealers sell spare parts. Amazing isn't it!
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SebastienPeek
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| posted on February 22nd, 2012 at 07:52 PM |
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I can't drive it until I'm 25 anyway.
Turbo is a no go until I'm 25 in SA.
Not fair at all.
But then again, it is very fair. I understand that kids on their P's and that are younger than 25 shouldn't drive high powered vehicles.
I just want to do something different and cool, and I think doing a Subaru conversion in a bug, not many people under the age of 19 can say that they
have done a Subaru conversion on their VW.
Also, sent you an email AA003, well, the email in your post that is. Hope you got it and can hit me up as soon as possible. Would love to get this
project on the road before I'm 18 even...
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