| [ Total Views: 259475 | Total Replies: 268 | Thread Id: 36884 ] |
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 VWCOOL
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| posted on March 31st, 2005 at 10:57 AM |
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Don't take this the worng way...  but it's much better to use all
compatiible factory original equipment components - to stay away from the problems of 'patching' with junk parts!
[Edited on 31/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
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Herbie
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| posted on March 31st, 2005 at 11:48 AM |
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yes I agree, do it once and do it right, thats my bodgee alter ego coming out,:P
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 31st, 2005 at 03:55 PM |
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lol... I been there, done that!:thumb
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tassupervee
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| posted on March 31st, 2005 at 06:38 PM |
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The calipers a m8 of mine is using for his own disc brake kit for F-Vees are a generic single sided caliper found on dozens of small taiwanese/korean
and hyundai comes to mind.
They are cheap and readily available new and may be another angle to enable you to employ one peice hub/disks.
Just another thought.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 31st, 2005 at 09:20 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Flintstones
| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
The calliper I have chosen is the common, low-cost and very effective single-piston sliding finned aluminium PBR Corvette/Holden calliper, commonly
known as the 'VL Turbo' calliper used on VL-VS Holden/HSV V8s.
The disc is a 290/24mm vented unit made by DBA for an XR8 Falcon.
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VWCOOL, the standard commodore rotor thickness for the VL turbo caliper is 22mm.....
any reason for the thicker rotor?
Cheers
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After doing some bedding-in of the new rotors with old half-worn out pads, I have just fitted new Bendix Ultimate brake pads and although it's a 24mm
disc in a calliper designed for one that is 23mm thick, they fitted okay!
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 2nd, 2005 at 03:44 PM |
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Did some testing of the big brake conversion today: I have just returned from a reasonable drive along some hilly twisty terrain to 'bed-in' the new
pads against the vented and slotted discs. As explained earlier in this thread, I am testing my big brakes with the T3 rear drums that I have had on
the car for years before I install the rear disc package we have been working on, for testing with the vented fronts.
For max traction during testing, I have fitted a set of 'chewing gum' semi-comp Falken tyres. My Beetle is fitted with a standard 1600cc 'mule'
engine at the moment so it takes a fair while to get to 100km/h, but four back-to-back runs from 100-0 didn't result in any fade or even a whiff of
distress from the front brakes.
When I get my (much quicker) 1916 engine back in, I intend to test with 10 back-to-back full-throttle 100km/h-0 cycles which as far as I know, is an
industry standard fade test for OE manufacturers and most state rego authorities.
At this stage, as far as I can tell (by myself) the fronts are tending to lock before the rears but I will fit another set of tyres to 'destruct'
for 'lock-up point' testing at a later time.
But with nose-dragging braking performance, it's so far, so good!:thumb:thumb:thumb
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57kombi
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| posted on April 2nd, 2005 at 04:22 PM |
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Not trying to rain on your parade, But, disc kits are already available from places like CSP . these are German engineered , use General Motors
replaceable parts and with these kits you do not have to modify the spindles and you can also keep your original wheels, even wide 5 bolt .
Kits cost about $1200,
Like I said its great that you are doing these things but why, when you have to do so much work and also go to the expense of fitting Ford wheels??
Cheers
Dave
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bugboymatt
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| posted on April 2nd, 2005 at 04:36 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 57kombi
Not trying to rain on your parade, But, disc kits are already available from places like CSP . these are German engineered , use General Motors
replaceable parts and with these kits you do not have to modify the spindles and you can also keep your original wheels, even wide 5 bolt .
Kits cost about $1200,
Like I said its great that you are doing these things but why, when you have to do so much work and also go to the expense of fitting Ford wheels??
Cheers
Dave
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There tested to german specs too which i do believe are the most stringent there going !!!! So would have to be good to reach TUV approval in
Germany.
[Edited on 2-4-2005 by bugboymatt]
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57kombi
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| posted on April 2nd, 2005 at 04:45 PM |
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That is correct, they are the best you can get for beetles and kombis,
All I am thinking is the price of these ones would have to be less than $500 to make it worth while, as you have to have the spindles modified and
also change the wheels, which isnt going to be cheap if you want a nice set.
Like I said I just cant see the point if they are not going to be very cheap.
Cheers
Dave
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 2nd, 2005 at 06:42 PM |
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uh huh...
lol... I know what's out there! And I'm happy to compare mine with thiers... but I don't think there is much of a comparison unless you're looking
at a vented high-performance setup like.. well, like what? Is the CSP kit a high-performance vented kit? Er... no!
Most commercially-available kits seem to give roughly equivalent performance to standard Beetle front discs. Or with dodgy calliper/MC matching, worse
performance. They certainly don't seem to have the specs or ability that I have designed into my little vented package.
Even with good pads and specially-manufactured slotted rotors, my Beetle's brakes (with T3 rear drums) used to fade when punished on-road and track.
That's why I've gone one better and engineered big 290x24mm vented front brakes from a 1800kg V8 muscle car into my 800kg Beetle.
Originally, I did this conversion for myself and my own car, but was encouraged to 'go public' and think about supplying others by other VW
enthusiasts who saw what I was doing.
Expense? The Ford wheels cost me $80. Uh, that's less than what most people want for a set of 15x6-inch VW rims... And as for $500.. you are
dreaming. That doesn't even buy me the precision machining for one side of this upgrade, let alone bearings, seals, brackets,
callipers, studs, nuts, rotors and pads! I am chasing an extreme level of performance from these brakes, not a low price.
These brakes are not for $3000 P-plater's cars. You want stock discs - buy stock discs. As I discovered years ago, stock discs are actually quite
good (up to a point) with decent pads! You want cheap? Go right ahead!
But if you want almost one-inch thick, virtually fade-free ventilated front disc brakes with a big, sticky pad that will mate up with
almost-as-serious rear discs and survive under a Scooby WRX transplant, stroker, turbo, healthy 1916, etc, be street legal in all states and be easy
to maintain, I might be able to help
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
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57kombi
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| posted on April 2nd, 2005 at 08:13 PM |
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lol.
As a matter of fact they can be purchased VENTED. Just check any UltraVW mag.
They are CNC machined cast alloy hubs with rotors and wheel bearings installed, new 48mm GM calipers brake hoses and fitting instructions. and are TUV
approved which is far superior to any approval needed in Australia.They keep the wide 5 so you can keep your standard wheels or the set of
BRW's/Empis that you already have.
I mentioned the cost of the wheels.
Do you really think that anyone going to this expense is going to stick crappy Ford steel wheels to there vehicle after spending this amount of money,
I doubt it, they will have to purchase some mags, that is what I was on about re the price.
Also on these disc brakes, no modification of the spindle is required.
If they dont suit your needs fair enough, I was only mentioning the fact that Vented discs are availabe in wide 5.
So what would you be selling yours for then.
Suprise me!!
Cheers
Dave
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malcolm
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| posted on April 2nd, 2005 at 10:21 PM |
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it doesn,t matter if brake kits are tuv approved they need to be adr complient in australia and if you can use brakes that are used on australian
approved cars it makes engineering easier and parts cheaper a very good rear caliper to use is a 1980/1984 front subi caliper great piston size cheap
can use a kombi disk and has the cable handbrake actuator due to subi having the handbrake on the front.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 2nd, 2005 at 11:21 PM |
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57Kombi, I mentioned earlier in this thread that my choice of Falcon wheels means you can buy ANY AU factory Ford or aftermarket wheel you like with
$20 steelies for 'budget' and hand-built Simmons etc at the four-figure end of the scale.
In other words, spending big money on wheels in NOT necessary to use these brakes. So, if like me, you don't mind sticking $20,000 worth of engine
and running gear under a $500 shell, ex-taxi steelies are 'the go'!
I also mentioned earlier, I have made sure this upgrade will fit inside 5x130 Porsche wheels that are a common fitment for 'show' and 'go'
Beetles. They also fit inside Commodore rims (although Commodore rims are not as 'happy' under a ball-joint Beetle due to offset) which gives, in my
opinion, an enormous range of wheels to choose from.
Not many people attempt to make serious street/comp cars or buggies out of pre-68 link-pin cars with the classic 'wide five' wheels. Lack of wheel
supply/choice, lack of centre spigot (therefore difficulty balancing etc etc) lack of strength and adjustment in front end are just some of the
reasons why.
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 2nd, 2005 at 11:23 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by malcolm
it doesn,t matter if brake kits are tuv approved they need to be adr complient in australia and if you can use brakes that are used on australian
approved cars it makes engineering easier and parts cheaper a very good rear caliper to use is a 1980/1984 front subi caliper great piston size cheap
can use a kombi disk and has the cable handbrake actuator due to subi having the handbrake on the front.
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This is a front vented upgrade, not rear! See pic below - sorry it's sideways but I'm sure you get the idea!
For reasons of cost and ease of fitment, pre-EF Falcon is the best rear disc upgrade for VWs, I reckon
And Malcolm, you are right about the ADRs... they are the only ones that matter in Australia!
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
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57kombi
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| posted on April 3rd, 2005 at 08:00 AM |
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Yes but if they can pass the German TUV, they will piss it in over any ADR.
Also I used the wide 5 as most on here have early vehicles but the CSP brakes are alos available in the later 4 bolt pattern.
For about the same price of $1200.
Come on how much are you going to sell yours for???
I only ask as before you edited I am sure a figure of $1500 was posted????
Cheers
Dave
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 3rd, 2005 at 09:01 PM |
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I have spent roughly $3000 so far in materials and contracted machining to get the prototype brakes onto my car to the stage where they able to be
tested. When people started asking me, I figured around $1500 for the kit.... But with initial finger-count costings, it looks like it will be more
than that
None of the engineers I know/use recognise TVU for aftermarket. They rely on inspection of components. And as for wide- fives... you should get out
more. The 60s are over
[Edited on 3/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
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ducky
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| posted on April 3rd, 2005 at 09:24 PM |
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This is fun better than reality tv. I like ingenuity.
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bugboymatt
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| posted on April 3rd, 2005 at 09:24 PM |
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Tarox do some nice 6 piston calipers for veedubs
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bugboymatt
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| posted on April 3rd, 2005 at 09:27 PM |
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Dave, yeah 60's are over time to get rid of that old bus ya have there and get a modern one !!! Maybe a toyota Tarago or something !!!
Don't know what they'll give ya for trade in tho !!!!
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 3rd, 2005 at 09:27 PM |
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six piston... yeehah! :thumbBut I'm finding the single-piston sliding PBRs seem to work okay too!
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bugboymatt
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| posted on April 3rd, 2005 at 09:29 PM |
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Just out of interest. What does it cost to get and fit good old porsche brakes here in oz! I think theres a couple of peeps using them !!
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malcolm
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| posted on April 3rd, 2005 at 09:47 PM |
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complete steel porsche with single piston caliper $800 per arm alloy complete arms with brakes $1500 per arm if you want to use the porsche stud
pattern its the best way to go and easier to engineer but I found a good supplier at good prices I got a complete 944 rear suspension for $700 but I
sold the brake assem of the arms for $300 and will be using honde NSX rear brakes with the 5x 114.3 stud pattern the guy I got the porsche brakes from
is a Honda wreckers in westall road springvale vic.
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pete wood
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| posted on April 4th, 2005 at 09:10 AM |
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I'd rather use something off a local performance car than the CSP stuff. I tried to tell people this before.
With local stuff I can go to repco and buy whatever pads I want from bargain stockers to heavy duty race pads, I can also pick up a whole new caliper
for not much money. Or I can go to the wreckers and buy 3 pairs of caliper for a few hundred dollars.
I'm sure this is not the case for the CSP stuff. I know it's well made. But the ADRs are the most important things for local engineers. They
couldn't care less about german regs. If they know what local car it's off they are much happier, otherwise they have to do wall sorts of weird
brake tests to varify it. They'd rather avoid that and so would I.
Besides, who would you rather support, and aussie business or a german business?
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MikeM
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| posted on April 4th, 2005 at 09:21 AM |
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What is this CSP stuff everyone is talking about. Got any links or anything?
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 4th, 2005 at 10:27 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
I'd rather use something off a local performance car than the CSP stuff. I tried to tell people this before.
With local stuff I can go to repco and buy whatever pads I want from bargain stockers to heavy duty race pads, I can also pick up a whole new caliper
for not much money. Or I can go to the wreckers and buy 3 pairs of caliper for a few hundred dollars.
I'm sure this is not the case for the CSP stuff. I know it's well made. But the ADRs are the most important things for local engineers. They
couldn't care less about german regs. If they know what local car it's off they are much happier, otherwise they have to do wall sorts of weird
brake tests to varify it. They'd rather avoid that and so would I.
Besides, who would you rather support, and aussie business or a german business?
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... that's exactly the philosophy that I have, too, and the reason why I have used standard unmodified Holden, Ford and VW components as far
as possible.
As I have mentioned before in this thread, using components designed and validated by their manufacturers (PBR, BTR/Dana, DBA, Holden and Ford) in
Australia for 2000kg Australian V8 sedans means that local Recognised Engineering Signatories have no reason to be uncomfortable approving these
brakes on a modified vehicle. Imported callipers not used on Australian market (ADR complied) vehicles (including aftermarket brands) do not offer the
same confidence.
Brembo, Wilwood, AP is all sexy and very capable product when used in thier intended applications. However, individual components can be expensive and
in many cases can never be legally installed on a street car due to lack of durability testing and track-only design (such as no rubber
piston seals for dust exclusion). Yeah, they look good and you can brag to your mates... but I bought Bendix Ultimate brake pads at the local milk bar
the other day and I think the calliper piston seals cost $8 per side.
Yep... eight. Two of these :beer:
The callipers and calliper cradles are UNMODIFIED in my upgrade - other kits (for all sorts of cars, not just VWs) I have seen over the years use
butchered OE cradles which are a durability and safety concern.
My upgrade's flexible brake lines are also unmodified for the same reason - safety, durability and legality.
As I outlined earlier, I have also researched appropriate wheels for this upgrade (the calliper is too big to fit inside a VW rim centre). As my pics
show, I can confidently say that 15x6-inch AU Falcon wheels do the job under standard guards. Yes, there is a minor loss in turning circle... exactly
the same as many of us experience with 15x6-inch VW rims under standard guards. This upgrade has also been designed for Porsche alloys - everything
fits.
I would like to have been able to install this upgrade as a 'bolt-on' without diassembling the front end (ie removing the stub axle adding to the
time required to install and upsetting the front end alignment etc) but I found it impossible to fit my big calliper, its cradle and a rotor of this
size (290x24mm) to a standard VW stub without increasing vehicle track dimension. The track increases that some other brake kits force you to live
with can upset suspension and steering geometry and force wheels to rub on mudguards.
There is no increase in track with my brake upgrade.
The calliper brackets and hubs I had made are one-piece items (no dodgy welding) that are laser-cut and machined from steel with appropriate (huge!)
cross-sectional area and corner radii etc etc. These brackets far exceed the original VW's dimension for the calliper mounting 'ears'
(bolt-holes). In fact, they are bigger than the brackets that HSV and FPR use on the 'Performance' brake packages for 300kW/1800kg cars...
The forged VW stub axle is machined (not gas-axed which can upset metallurgy etc) to accept the new bracket once again using appropriate machining
practice.
But of course, the real reason I am doing this to my own car is because there is a very high 'operational ceiling' with these components.
In other words, ventilated V8 brakes on a Beetle ROCK!
[Edited on 4/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
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Turbo54
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| posted on April 4th, 2005 at 10:50 AM |
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VW Cool, keep me updated with what your doing,
Cheers, T54
C'mon kids gather round,
there's a new sensation hitting town,
It's moving straight, low to the ground,
it'll pick you up when your feeling down.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 4th, 2005 at 10:59 AM |
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yep I will be keeping this thread updated
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Gracey
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| posted on April 4th, 2005 at 01:36 PM |
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VW Cool, all I can say is Excellent Reading. Oversized brakes always rock, and these puppy's look huge.:thumb
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1303
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| posted on April 4th, 2005 at 08:13 PM |
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Good to see some decent aussie engineering . I remember hearing that a common VL brake upgrade was to go for the early 4 piston Skyline caliper ...
Apparently this was a bolt on swap , that would provide some serious stopping on a beetle.
[Edited on 4/4/2005 by 1303]
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gayanne
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| posted on April 4th, 2005 at 09:38 PM |
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There are a lot of valid points,bigger the brakes bigger the stopping power.VWcool your brakes are fine but are only cool for road use only.Using
AP,Brembo etc are the best but are used mainly for racing just and over kill for road use but look fat under any car.I use APS and WILWOOD for racing
and i would never use anything less for racing to risk less stopping power.JVLRacing
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