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 2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on March 14th, 2007 at 05:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
You will get more power from an engine using BATCH fire than sequential.Sequential comes into it's own for fuel economy and smoothness of engine
operation. For "balls and all" power go batch fire.For economy and lower end engine operation (low revs) go sequential.
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How can you justify more power from BATCH fire? Makes no sense at all to me.... Sequential injection done right and injecting at the right time will
always work better. There is more to it than firing the injectors in the right order. Adjustment of the injector angle for smoothest idle is something
thats often overlooked and always makes a diference with engines with lumpy cams.
Your on track about low engine speeds and sequential though operation though. Eg, my skyline. I upgraded to larger injectors so i could run more
boost as we all want to do. THe down side was I was a cheap ass and didn't buy a nice set of 1.1ms stable sards that for about $1000 a set, and
instead bought a set of injectors that don't deliver a clean spray pattern below 1.55ms. This meant if i stayed with batch fire, a cylinder or two
would flame out, pop and bitch from lack of fuel randomly at idle and cruise engine speeds. At WOT and on boost it would run just fine, it just
lacked any street manners or drivability.
The obvious solution was to switch to sequential, but my ecu has only 4 injector drivers which means they have to be fired in pairs.
My work around was to reconfigure the injector wiring and change the injector sequencing, and alter the injection cycle to operate over a 720 degree
cycle like sequential instead of 360 like batch fire. The effect is that injector 1 fires sequential, and at the same time 5 fires at the same time it
would with batch fire (360 degrees early), then 3-6 and 2-4, which is the same as the ignition firing order. The exception is that every 2nd pulse
received from the CAS input trigger fires injectors. (the CAS has 1 mark per cylinder and 1 reference for 60BTDC)
End result, stable idle at 2.35ms at idle with 850cc injectors and a 14.5:1 AFR at idle. Not miss firing at 12.5:1 like it was earlier.
Boostn, you mentioned injector trims per injector channel in a previous post. Every ecu i've ever used has that feature. Haltechs and wolfs, don't
know about Microtech though. Even Reub's old E6A supported injector trims and was nearly 14 years old. I've only seen 1 tuner actually use them
though to adjust exhaust temp at idle using a laser heat probe gun.
Your 3000hp v8's are a whole diferent ball park when it comes to tuning. Consider the math behind accuratly tuning a 375hp per cylinder engine. Its
nearly 2500cc/min injectors on each cylinder, so your looking at parallel injectors on each intake runner, or a 1000cc first stage and a 1500cc second
stage at least. 5% variance in injector tolerances with that much fuel is 125cc/minute.
Thats a lot of fuel to be out by when you think every injector is getting the same injector pulse width, which is why they are tuning every cylinder
individually.
Any ecu can make good power. Eg.. the last high end skyline i went for a ride in had a microtech and made 625rwhp on 32lb boost, on 98 octane BP
ultimate pump fuel. Its the tuner, not the ecu.
Back on topic...
My recommendation is to get away from using the crank as a trigger source for the ECU. Use the camshaft so you can use sequential injection. Cranks
have end float issues too and depending on the sensor can give you false triggers on occasion due to your sensor air gap changing. I've been down
that path before....
Personally I use a optic sensor from a Crane Cams ignition module that can be ordered as a replacment part for a 009 distributor. All i had to do was
cut 1 extra slot in the supplied trigger disc to reference 60 degrees BTDC and I was set.
You don't have to use the distributor for spark then if you don't want to either, as 720 degree firing lets you do 4 coil direct fire ignition as
well if you want too. So you can have a cool billet cover for your distributor made up to replace the distributor cap much like is done on the 13B
rotaries.
Standard disclaimer... everyone is entitled to an opionion and i'm not looking to piss anyone off. These are the facts as I know them is all...
[ Edited on 14-3-2007 by iswinkels ]
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on March 14th, 2007 at 07:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by iswinkels
Standard disclaimer... everyone is entitled to an opionion and i'm not looking to piss anyone off. These are the facts as I know them is all...
[ Edited on 14-3-2007 by iswinkels ]
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Ditto......and everyone WILL have different opinions.Without it we are clones.:beer The only advantage I could see with sequential injection/timed
injection is better/smoother idle and better fuel economy. The cheaper ECU's that offer only Batch fire are generally easier to tune and cheaper to
set up for the same top end power. Most ECU's have the option of either anyway. I do agree that it's the tuner,not the ecu that will make it go
properly...If you live in Townsville for example go to Cairns to get yours tuned....
[ Edited on 14-3-07 by MickH ]
tssnq.com.au
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 vw54
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| posted on March 14th, 2007 at 07:46 PM |
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If you do go with buying a new ECU no matter what brand, make sure you spec the following
Engine cylinders # 4
engine firing order 1432 air cooled VW
# of injectors 4 or multipal
ignition system dissy, single coil or multipal coil with sensor
it appears that some brands ( manufactures ) think that all there ECUs fit up to rotaries ie 2 banks not 4 cylinders
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 14th, 2007 at 09:51 PM |
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Boostn: Eight exhaust probes? That is SOO 90s! :P
Ten year-old V6 Commodores can 'sniff' the exhaust of each cylinder using just one probe per bank, by referencing to firing order...
Anyhow Dasdubber, maybe you should U2U Craig Torrens for some info on Microtech tuning. Maybe you already have...?
[ Edited on 14-3-2007 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
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| posted on March 16th, 2007 at 11:21 PM |
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My brother is currently(and has been for about 5 years now) about to finish the engine for his Type 3 which is 2330 type 1 running a Garrett T4
intercooled and we are using an Autronic ECU to keep everything in order. Why you ask?
Well when you spend this much money on an engine why skimp on the ECU? you don't want to know how much this thing has cost and nor do we cause it
just gets a little scary(like house deposit scary) We chose it because of all the functions it has and just the sheer finite ability of the tune you
can put on it. Plus we know someone to do the tuning who is conversant with Autronic ECU's.
So I guess from what I have read so far is that...
A) How much do you want to spend to get an ECU?
B) Do you know someone who is conversant with the brand of ECU you buy to tune it on a VW?
C)Whatever brand you chose will also depend on what engine combo your running eg turbo/gas/blower/single or multiple throttle bodies.
Good luck!!:thumb
[size=4] ACCEPT THAT SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE PIDGEON AND SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE STATUE[/size]
Alder Outlaws VW Racing - check it out on fb!!
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Boostn
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| posted on March 17th, 2007 at 01:12 AM |
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Porsche Germany a few years ago purchased 150 Motech units for their new GT3 racers. Now I'm not 100% sure but I am assuming that their ecu's are
slightly more advanced than a GOOD unit like the ac delco, but they still bought Motechs, I wonder why????
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56astro
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| posted on March 17th, 2007 at 07:42 AM |
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Maybe:
launch control?
traction control?
flat shifting?
LCD dash unit?
better suited all round?
But are their needs the same or different to our VeeDubs? Not all of our VeeDubs have the same needs (twin spark/boost/NOS/alcohol/ etc)
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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Boostn
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| posted on March 17th, 2007 at 02:32 PM |
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No not at all and if you read my posts I say that I use Microtech.
The problem is just that certain people who probably have never tuned a Motec don't understand how much better they are and were arguing against the
proven best computer in the world. The options are there is you can use them, or even understand how to make efficient reliable power.
Just like if you don't know anything about a PCs except for checking e-mails, you don't get how much better a new computer is over a pentium 2. They
both do e-mails and the Internet, but very differently hey.
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Boostn
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| posted on March 17th, 2007 at 02:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
Maybe:
launch control?
traction control?
flat shifting?
LCD dash unit?
better suited all round?
But are their needs the same or different to our VeeDubs? Not all of our VeeDubs have the same needs (twin spark/boost/NOS/alcohol/ etc)
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Porsche have that technology.
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nick@vollkommenart.com
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tassupervee
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| posted on March 17th, 2007 at 04:30 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
When the engine is running at full tilt, the injectors should be running close to 80-90% duty cycle.
Therefore when you consider the injector is open 80-90% of the time, the engine is spinning at over 6000rpm, and the injector is not placed
immediately at the back of the inlet valve (in the case of VW 100mm or more at best), then sequential injection really means diddly-squat.
Sequential injection really only comes into its own at low engine speeds.
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Eaxctly right m8.
Another point often overlooked is that the injector dwell time at WOT and high revs often well exceeds the time that particular valve is open
anyway.
Do some simple mathematics and you will see.
The ability to individually tweak cylinders is certainly desireable but in the real world full of real people, not really necessary along with a lot
of other features.
So what if my injectors open .0006 of a nano-second before yours??
That feature may give the owner of a 3000hp/65.000 dollar engine a stiffy but I find that the very least of my issues!
Basically pay your money and take your choice.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
A.k.a.: Brennden Alder
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| posted on March 17th, 2007 at 04:59 PM |
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Tassie supervee is that your car in your avator?? Panels look like the panels that my uncle makes(Volks Engineering)
So for off topic but just noticed:thumb
[size=4] ACCEPT THAT SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE PIDGEON AND SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE STATUE[/size]
Alder Outlaws VW Racing - check it out on fb!!
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Boostn
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| posted on March 18th, 2007 at 12:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by tassupervee
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
When the engine is running at full tilt, the injectors should be running close to 80-90% duty cycle.
Therefore when you consider the injector is open 80-90% of the time, the engine is spinning at over 6000rpm, and the injector is not placed
immediately at the back of the inlet valve (in the case of VW 100mm or more at best), then sequential injection really means diddly-squat.
Sequential injection really only comes into its own at low engine speeds.
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Eaxctly right m8.
Another point often overlooked is that the injector dwell time at WOT and high revs often well exceeds the time that particular valve is open
anyway.
Do some simple mathematics and you will see.
The ability to individually tweak cylinders is certainly desireable but in the real world full of real people, not really necessary along with a lot
of other features.
So what if my injectors open .0006 of a nano-second before yours??
That feature may give the owner of a 3000hp/65.000 dollar engine a stiffy but I find that the very least of my issues!
Basically pay your money and take your choice.
L8tr
E
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Not if you run decent injectors suited to the application.
Like I said not everyone can use the options or even understands the need for them.
But don't knock Motech because the are the best.
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tassupervee
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| posted on March 18th, 2007 at 01:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Boostn
Not if you run decent injectors suited to the application.
Like I said not everyone can use the options or even understands the need for them.
But don't knock Motech because the are the best.
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Now hang on, just a minute M8, nobody is knocking Motech at all. Their reputation alone keeps them up there. Whats going on here is defending the
reputation of some lesser reputed brands.
However to make such a breezy and sweeping claim that "..dont knock Motech because they are the best" is just a bit rich!
So what if V8 superanchors use them, or Porsche ordered 150 of them. Perhaps Motech quoted the cheapest price versus the features added in the
original tender process hmmm?
In a supply contract like that, its rarely the most tecnhically suitable product that gets the nod.
Motech has a good reputation. So does Haltech, Autronic, Link and a whole mess of other local and overseas ECU's we have never even heard of.
Even Megasquirt uses a very high end ECU capable of just about everything.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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JVLRacing
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| posted on March 18th, 2007 at 03:12 PM |
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Well my top 3 ECUs Motech,Autronic and EMS8860. Motech has the reputation and numbers to prove its the best(tassupervee). The problem most of us have
is not to be able to afford to buy a Motech so we use what we can afford which is not always the best result....THE TUNER IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE ECU
IN FRONT OF HIM!....its about the software in that little square box that will give you that edge.
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Boostn
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| posted on March 18th, 2007 at 04:02 PM |
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OK cool guys
I don't want to argue,
JVL that's exactly what I am saying.
and tassupervee, I am NOT knocking other ECU's at all, remember I use Microtech
and that decisions is all about value for money.
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on March 18th, 2007 at 06:38 PM |
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Thanks for the constructive comments everyone - it all helps to make a decision.
At the moment I am limited in budget, but as mentioned early in the piece, whatever ECU I end up purchasing will be used on a higher capacity engine
down the track. So for example the microtech LT-10 may not be the "best" (which as discussed above really depends on how you define "best") ECU
available, but for my 1) intended application, 2) lack of experience with efi, 3) budget, and 4) familiarity of a reputable dyno efi tuner.....it may
be the "best" option for my circumstance.
At AU$1145 for the LT-10 vs around $2250 for the Autronic (quoted from another local tuner - can't recall the model though).....I don't think I can
justify the additional cost at this stage. I am still not 100% certain though so although the microtech looks to be the most suitable for me at this
stage, I still use the opinions and comments from you guys to guide my research and critically compare the different options.
Cheers
Alan
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 18th, 2007 at 07:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by JVLRacing
Well my top 3 ECUs Motech,Autronic and EMS8860. Motech has the reputation and numbers to prove its the best(tassupervee). The problem most of us have
is not to be able to afford to buy a Motech so we use what we can afford which is not always the best result....THE TUNER IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE ECU
IN FRONT OF HIM!....its about the software in that little square box that will give you that edge.
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JVL, just an observation based on your posts on here over the last few years, but that 'brand name' philosophy of yours, from brakes to suspension
to ECUs, is maybe why you still have an apparent no-result with your track car after all these years, while others around you are having plenty of fun
- and setting records - in VWs equipped with 'lesser' equipment and parts scrounged from swap meets and wreckers' yards. You're putting too much
faith in the 'little square box', and not enough in the experience of people to set it up. Full credit to Das for asking lots of questions, rather
than simply buying a 'brand name'
[ Edited on 18-3-2007 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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JVLRacing
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| posted on March 18th, 2007 at 08:58 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
| Quote: | Originally
posted by JVLRacing
Well my top 3 ECUs Motech,Autronic and EMS8860. Motech has the reputation and numbers to prove its the best(tassupervee). The problem most of us have
is not to be able to afford to buy a Motech so we use what we can afford which is not always the best result....THE TUNER IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE ECU
IN FRONT OF HIM!....its about the software in that little square box that will give you that edge.
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JVL, just an observation based on your posts on here over the last few years, but that 'brand name' philosophy of yours, from brakes to suspension
to ECUs, is maybe why you still have an apparent no-result with your track car after all these years, while others around you are having plenty of fun
- and setting records - in VWs equipped with 'lesser' equipment and parts scrounged from swap meets and wreckers' yards. You're putting too much
faith in the 'little square box', and not enough in the experience of people to set it up. Full credit to Das for asking lots of questions, rather
than simply buying a 'brand name'
[ Edited on 18-3-2007 by VWCOOL ]
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Hang on VWCOOL! who said i wasnt having fun at what iam doing.Yes ive had probs....ECUs and a Suspension probs... but Mr VWCOOL have
you built what i have? This is a ground up build and it has taken the hard yards but i have learnt from my mistakes and i will continue
learning.Expert your not because you dont understand the work ive done.......I personally think Dassdubber is looking for a ECU that works especially
with hes quality work he does.Brand names have warranty ,stuff from the tip like brakes second hand ECUs dont
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 18th, 2007 at 10:07 PM |
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yes, I do understand the 'work' you've done... that's why I haven't attempted to re-invent the wheel, and make it hexagonal, like you seem to
have... but I'm glad you're having fun :thumb
[ Edited on 18-3-2007 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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tassupervee
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| posted on March 20th, 2007 at 07:36 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Boostn
and tassupervee, I am NOT knocking other ECU's at all, remember I use Microtech
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Never said you did knock them M8!
Yer I knew ur using them and yep, value for money, you cant go wrong.
I use 2 of them and EMS!!!
However, there are several statements here (not just yours dude) saying things kinda like "Motech" is the best, repuation, sales blah" and so-on
which just dont gell at all with me.
Its like saying a VHS video format is better than Beta format!
Just because VHS outsold Beta to the point of extinction!
When in reality, there is no secret as to which recording format was vastly superior on all fronts!
Like I said before, this is a good discussion!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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humpty
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| posted on March 20th, 2007 at 11:04 PM |
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Just to throw the cat abong the pigeons....
I have a MegaSquirt-II V3.0 Kit with a few little extras and it cost me $450 Oz... Landed...
Its compatible with just about anything on the commmon market, is tunable in realtime, with a garden variety PC laptop or palm pilot... It gets its
signals from the ignition of choice (EDIS in my case), MAF, TPS, IAC, Temp and a wideband o2... Same as most other systems... And Im happy with how it
went together (Yes its a kit), it tested fine.
So how does it go on a turbo charged and intercooled Aussie aircooler?.... I don't know!..... The proof will be in the pudding when I finally get it
all up and running.... It is waiting patiently for the day I get it plugged in.... And don't worry about back up and local help... There are plenty
of MS users in Oz.... Just spend some time on the MS forums.... And if you think that its only US users with VW knowledge... you are surely
mistaken.... Most of the peeps that have the biggest success with the systems are the crazy euro crowd....
To finish this off.... I donlt know if the choice was the right one, but I feel its the best bang for buck.... There is a wealth of real MS/VW related
help out there in www.... And I like a challenge....
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ian.mezz
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 08:29 PM |
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how do you like this????
Its a ford throttle body that works off the vw throttle cable
It wouldnt take much to pipe a turbo into it:o
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 08:48 PM |
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Thanks Ian, I was mulling about the wreckers last weekend getting a few ideas.
It seems to be a fairly precise science to determine runner lengths, diameters (volumes), plenum volumes/shapes, and throttle body sizes - I have been
reading a lot of posts on shoptalkforums (especially by Ray Greenwood who seems to have a lot of practical experience as well as the theoretical
underpinnings to go with it).
There seems to be a plethora of options there....just need to find a throttle body of the right size (just need to work out what that 'right size'
is!).
Alan
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
A.k.a.: Brennden Alder
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 06:29 PM |
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Al on Troy's type 3 we are using an XF Falcon throttle body. 68mm from memory(had a sleep since i measured it lol) and they are reasonably cheap even
to buy new.
[size=4] ACCEPT THAT SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE PIDGEON AND SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE STATUE[/size]
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 07:35 PM |
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This may be a silly question, but with say a XF falcon throttle body (or any other that is designed for N/A), does it matter if you run them in a
turbo application? Forgive my noobie-status on these matters! (I am learning)
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tassupervee
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That really hurts doesnt it!
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 09:17 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
It seems to be a fairly precise science to determine runner lengths, diameters (volumes), plenum volumes/shapes, and throttle body sizes - ....just
need to find a throttle body of the right size (just need to work out what that 'right size' is!).
Alan
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Al, dont too get dazzled in science here!
All those snazzy dimensions and calculations of runners and so-on look wonderful and if your running at the pointy end, might be quite valid.
However, what is considered technically "correct" and what will work just fine are often vastly different and something that wasa cobbled out of a
couple of old bits of exhaust pipe will work just fine. particularly on forced induction!!! You can get away with murder here. Dont stress it M8!
As far as a "correct" TB, well there isnt any really.
You can go perhaps too small which will have little effect on boost but may restrict things off boost but too big will matter about zip apart from
extremely savage throttle response at tiny throttle openings due to lots of CFM passing at small openings.
You can get around this with some funky throttle cable quadrants that work around a varying pull radius but this seems like a bit of a headache when a
saner sized TB will work just fine.
Choose ANYTHING that will go close to fitting where you propose to fit it;
Dont get too bent out of shape about really large TB's tho.
The Pulsar Turbo ET TB is 44mm and will support around 400HP
Your going to try pretty hard to get near this Id say!
Just about anything off a smaller Jap or Korean rice burner will suffice.
Remember, the rules regarding flow change when you force the air thru a particular orifice and a lot of the painstaking flowporting, runner volumes
and other such scientific blah can be largely ignored unless you intend this thing to rev to infinity and produce 250 Hp/Litre!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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westi
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what the
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 11:31 PM |
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poor old dasdubber.
i feel sorry for you .one simple question has caused quiet alot of fuss.
as for your TB ,you would proberly be best chosing something like commodore or falcon,the reason behind this is that they can be purchased anywere any
time,parts are realy easy to get because they are so commen.and they are cheap.i pay between$40 -$80.
and as for your computer ,why don't you ring you local tuners that you will most likely have to use, see which they are more at home with ,there is
no point buying something that they have not tuned before.
down sharon.
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on May 2nd, 2007 at 08:07 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
and as for your computer ,why don't you ring you local tuners that you will most likely have to use, see which they are more at home with ,there is
no point buying something that they have not tuned before.
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Thanks to everyone again for their advice. westi, I have done so already and it seems microtech and autronic are the two choices of the two most
reputable tuners on the gold coast (hence my initial swaying towards microtech). Gotta get some cash before buying anything though!
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VWCOOL
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| posted on May 2nd, 2007 at 09:44 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
Thanks Ian, I was mulling about the wreckers last weekend getting a few ideas.
It seems to be a fairly precise science to determine runner lengths, diameters (volumes), plenum volumes/shapes, and throttle body sizes - I have been
reading a lot of posts on shoptalkforums (especially by Ray Greenwood who seems to have a lot of practical experience as well as the theoretical
underpinnings to go with it).
There seems to be a plethora of options there....just need to find a throttle body of the right size (just need to work out what that 'right size'
is!).
Alan
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Good rule of thumb is to look at OE cars: eg: Pulsar has XXmm throttle body to produce YYkW; Falcodore has a ZZ mm TB to produce VVkW - but adding
forced induction changes the 'thumb' a bit!!
And before its gets mentioned (maybe it already has been...?) forget the old carby-era old wive's take about a small TB giving more torque - it's
bullshite. Although what Tassie et al say about big throttle being hard to tune in transition is correct - they let in way too much air too soon, at
small throttle openings: ie: when you are trying to drive smoothly. HTH
Another thing - do you know about IAC (idle air control) valves? Be a good idea to consider a TB with one, and a management system that will work it
effectively...
[ Edited on 1-5-2007 by VWCOOL ]
[ Edited on 1-5-2007 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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westi
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what the
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| posted on May 2nd, 2007 at 04:40 PM |
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if you buy your computer direct from microtech with loom,it should cost you between $900 -$1100.new
just ring them up and ask for a trade price,
down sharon.
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