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 Phil74Camper
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 05:13 PM |
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No the pistons don't rotate in a conventional engine, but the crankshaft does. In a Wankel, the three-pointed rotor both rotates around the central
eccentric shaft, AND makes orbital revolutions of the shaft, three rotations for one orbit.
In aviation circles (pardon the pun), a rotary engine is one where the crank is stationary, but the entire cylinder block rotates around it. It was
mostly used in WW1 fighter planes such as the Sopwith Camel - the Le Rhone is the most famous example - with the crank fastened to the chassis, and
the block and cylinders rotated. The prop was fastened to the crankcase, not the crank end. Not to be confused with a radial engine - same cylinder
arrangement but this time the crank rotates and the block is stationary.
Some other 'Lemons' from Tony Davis' follow-up book, 'Extra Lemon':
Jaguar XJ220, Nissan Cedric, Chevy Corvair, Austin X6 (Tasman/Kimberley), Ford Cortina 6, Subaru 360, Datsun 280ZX, Hillman Imp, Toyota Corona
'Starfire', Honda Z, Holden Piazza, Oldsmobile Toronado, Ford EA Falcon, VW Country Buggy, Jensen Interceptor, Holden Camira, AMC Pacer, Purvis
Eureka, Ford Landau Coupe, Suzuki X90, Holden Brougham, Toyota 2000GT, Ford Pinto, Valiant CM, Austin Freeway, AMC Gremlin, HD Holden, Trabant,
Standard Vanguard, Ford Falcon XK...
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amazeer
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 08:44 PM |
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not to be confused with the nissan cedrics on club buggery. I dont think they were lemons.... but they might have been I guess :P
In the coronas defence, the starfire (misfire) was a holden engine. Not sure if they were on sale here, but they even sold early commodore's with
them in new zealand when I was there mid 80's. Can you imagine how awe inspiring a 1.9 litre auto commodore wagon would have been? I believe they got
the 2 litre RB whatever nissan engine in the VL's as well.
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Joel
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 08:58 PM |
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ah yea the good ol commodore backfire
a freind bought a VH with one and fark me dead i would get out and walk faster.... the old 202s were bad enough without hacking off 2 of the
cylinders
she wanted to put a.c in and i said u gotta be kidding me 
atleast there was plenty of room in the engine bay 
id like to know what this tony davis bloke is basing the lemon list on other than personal opinion
yea most of the cars onthere are lemons but a few of them i wouldnt call that
as much as im not a fan of the old 120y and 200b, i wouldnt consider them a lemon and pintaras?
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 helbus
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 09:21 PM |
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120Y was definitely not a lemon. Slow, small, uninteresting yes, but fuel efficient, reliable and cheap also yes.
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Joel
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 09:40 PM |
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like most dattos they take a good caining too
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colonel mustard
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 09:49 PM |
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Pintara's are plain crap. haha
I dont agree with you on the fact that a piston engine is rotational.... if it wasnt, Its just a block of metal, the crank rotates, thats how it
works. Its a rotary becase the combustion spins.... its not about being technical, its about common sense...? (not trying to be rude..)
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cb john
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 09:52 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Phil74Camper
No the pistons don't rotate in a conventional engine, but the crankshaft does. In a Wankel, the three-pointed rotor both rotates around the central
eccentric shaft, AND makes orbital revolutions of the shaft, three rotations for one orbit.
In aviation circles (pardon the pun), a rotary engine is one where the crank is stationary, but the entire cylinder block rotates around it. It was
mostly used in WW1 fighter planes such as the Sopwith Camel - the Le Rhone is the most famous example - with the crank fastened to the chassis, and
the block and cylinders rotated. The prop was fastened to the crankcase, not the crank end. Not to be confused with a radial engine - same cylinder
arrangement but this time the crank rotates and the block is stationary.
Some other 'Lemons' from Tony Davis' follow-up book, 'Extra Lemon':
Jaguar XJ220, Nissan Cedric, Chevy Corvair, Austin X6 (Tasman/Kimberley), Ford Cortina 6, Subaru 360, Datsun 280ZX, Hillman Imp, Toyota Corona
'Starfire', Honda Z, Holden Piazza, Oldsmobile Toronado, Ford EA Falcon, VW Country Buggy, Jensen Interceptor, Holden Camira, AMC Pacer, Purvis
Eureka, Ford Landau Coupe, Suzuki X90, Holden Brougham, Toyota 2000GT, Ford Pinto, Valiant CM, Austin Freeway, AMC Gremlin, HD Holden, Trabant,
Standard Vanguard, Ford Falcon XK...
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OK, they are lemons, but try to get the sales figures for each and you'll see, that lemons sold pretty well...
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Joel
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 10:03 PM |
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depends which model pintara hes refering to
if its the old R31 then yea sticking a cruddy twin plug CA20 in a car built for the bigger 6cyl RB30 were gutless but hardly a lemon
and the later frontwheel drive U12 pintaras/corsairs are actually good robust little cars
alfasuds tho the deserve to be on there
my aunty had one, i didnt think it was possible for a car to literally vanish with rust
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cb john
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 10:13 PM |
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That all depends on the angle of looking at it...all Italian cars rust in no time, but perform and handle pretty good..
I used to own Honda 360Z and besides it was quite gutless, it was a relatively good daily drive and so far the best in my records as a perfectly built
car, with nothing to pick on...I used to own Alfa Junior GT, it was a pleasure to drive, untill the door hinges fell out...
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dAVo
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 10:14 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
like most dattos they take a good caining too
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I can vouch for that. My first car was a 180B. Man that thing took a floggin but it still carried on real strong. Wasn't in bad nick when I sold it
either. Small leak in the radiator and that was it.
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Andy
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| posted on April 19th, 2009 at 10:16 PM |
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Hey Phil, I'd be interested to see why the Triumph Stag was a lemon?
They had their issues, but I have not heard them called a lemon before!
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on April 20th, 2009 at 07:34 AM |
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Jason the combustion area in a Wankel doesn't 'spin'. Sure it moves around the perimeter of the casing, but not over 360 degrees, and in the
combustion step it is retained and compressed by the rotor moving past. The spark plugs are stationary in the block. An aircraft rotary engine, on the
other hand, has the whole shebang rotating abround the stationary crank. Yes it's a technicality, but that's science for you. Common sense is great
but is only a starting point and can often be misleading. Most people still think heavy objects fall faster than light ones because common sense says
so. Common sense is wrong in that case (and many others too).
Cars can be lemons for many reasons. Of course Tony Davis (son of legendary motoring writer Pedr Davis) is writing from his own opinion, but it's one
based on many years of experience. Why not get a copy of his book? Or phone him at the Sydney Morning Herald (Drive Life section).
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Extra-Lemon-Books-Tony-Davis_W0QQitemZ250407403443QQcm...
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amazeer
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| posted on April 20th, 2009 at 09:07 AM |
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ovals are rare. They must be to get this much money for this much car.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT...
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shaihulud
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| posted on April 20th, 2009 at 10:49 AM |
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As a matter of interest, the rotary engine that was fitted into WW1 fighter planes like the Sopwith Camel had some interesting problems.
About half the total weight of the plane was rotating, so they were very tricky to get off the ground and to fly with, in effect, a huge flywheel out
the front. They would either ground loop or flip over, just after take off.
Because the engine and propeller were both rotating it was very difficult to get the plane to turn on one direction, against the force of the flywheel
effect and very easy to get it to go in the opposite direction as the plane could virtually rotate around the propeller.
An enemy plane would try to make you go the difficult way to escape so that he could shoot you down, but if you went the other way you could do a
somersault in the air and suddenly be on his tail to shoot him down.
Because of the big flywheel out the front they were also tricky to land, so, just before touch down, the ignition was switched off, the landing was
made and then the engine was switched on again to taxi to the hanger. Next time you watch an old WW1 war movie listen for that as the fighter planes
land.
To see what I mean about the flywheel effect, get a bicycle wheel, hold the axles tight, get someone to spin it up and then try to turn it about.
Because the cylinders rotated, there was an intake manifold that opened the intakes like a slide valve system, with the carburettor inside the plane
and a hollow crankshaft half to get the intake air into the engine.
The exhaust valves were simple pushrod affairs, but there was no exhaust manifold, so the exhaust exited into the engine bay, this meant the there was
a big opening at the bottom of the engine bay to allow the exhaust fumes to escape.
The engine was lubricated, like a two stroke engine, with oil in the fuel, but in this case it was castor oil, so after a flight the pilot usually
needed a toilet in a hurry.
Even with all those weird problems the rotary engine was a great success and all combatents used them.
They were outpaced technically by the ordinary radial engine after the war and stopped being used as they were a classic example of the expression,
"A complicated way to do a simple job, badly".
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trickysimon
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| posted on April 20th, 2009 at 12:34 PM |
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I think it is better know as the gyroscope effect shaihulud, but great story 
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modulus
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| posted on April 20th, 2009 at 12:39 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Phil74Camper
Some other 'Lemons' from Tony Davis' follow-up book, 'Extra Lemon':
... Ford Cortina 6, ...
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I drove one of those once and it damn near killed me. Most evil-handling car every invented.
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68AutoBug
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 posted on April 20th, 2009 at 01:57 PM |
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Yes,
The rotary engine - pistons going round and round...
NOT up & Down...
probably would have been cheaper to produce than a piston engine but not as fuel effecient
What ever happened to the orbital engine??
that was going to take over the piston engines too...
A Lemon to Me is a car that doesn't perform as good as other cars at that time...
or keep breaking down etc...
That subaru Vortex was just an unusually shaped car..
I don't believe they were a lemon...
maybe butt ugly....lol
the Vauxhall Viva was a terrible car....
did everything wrong.... but maybe didn't break down...
it has always facinated Me that a car company can make a pefectly Good car and sell heaps of them....
then they redesign it completely... everything different..
and it can have handling and design problems...
the HD holden was the worse Holden ever built..
Body roll was excessive - resulting in lost traction etc..
BUT - the previous model EH Holden was called the best holden ever built at that time...
LEE
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on April 20th, 2009 at 03:45 PM |
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I am really enjoying this thread, I must say.
Aeroplanes are a big interest of mine so it's great to see that someone else knows about WW1 fighter planes and their engines - thanks shaihulud. Yes
rotaries were an evolutionary dead end, but they did the job very well for the time. Engine tech was in its infancy, and the rotating engine and prop
mass gave them more inherent smoothness than the pop pop inline conventional engines of the time. The whirling cylinders also helped cooling, as they
were always in a fast-moving air flow. Flying them, with such a huge gyroscopic effect, must have been a handful. Sopwith Camel aces must have been
superb pilots.
I've given Tony Davis enough of a plug. There are other lists of 'Lemons', and 'Worst cars of all time.' Here's one put out by Time Magazine, to
celebrate the 50th anniversary of the most famous lemon of them all, the Edsel. The 50 Worst Cars of All Time. No Aussie cars though.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/1,28757,1658545,00.html
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whatnow
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| posted on April 20th, 2009 at 07:13 PM |
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http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/oberursel-engine/urii-action
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68AutoBug
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 posted on April 20th, 2009 at 09:14 PM |
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Ford EDSEL s are now collectable
there are around 5 or 6 in Australia...
4 cylinder Ford Cortinas were badly assembled etc...
the 6 cylinder versions lasted much longer...
but they all sold well...
the PINTARA/CORSAIR cars jointly designed and sold by Nissan and Ford...
I never heard any bad stories about them either...
I was told a few years ago that if you broke the tail lamp lens on one of those pintaras... it would be written off
as there were no spare parts for them...
Italian cars were very bad for rust... they mustn't have been rustproofed or waxed when sold in australia..
Some of the Alfas were lemons in regard to breaking down and reliability problems..
many cars that were successful in europe weren't good in Australia as Aussies drive too far each year....
and the Euro cars didn't take the excess kilometers kindly..
IMHO.. Most of these cars were Not expensive...
TRABANTs are called lemons, but they sold well... as thats all the East Germans could afford.. and they never rusted..
as they weren't made from metal.... lol
and were easily maintained... ??
they could not be recycled... If burnt they gave off poisonious fumes.... ??
Now... If those italian car makers got together with TRABANT... Cars that didn't rust..
and running gear that went.... Unbeatable... lol
LEE
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shaihulud
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| posted on April 21st, 2009 at 01:10 AM |
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Re the Orbital Engine.
I think that they had a very serious vibration problem that couldn't be solved.
You are right. Not flywheel effect, but gyroscope effect.
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grumble
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| posted on April 21st, 2009 at 08:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 68AutoBug
the PINTARA/CORSAIR cars jointly designed and sold by Nissan and Ford...
I never heard any bad stories about them either...
I was told a few years ago that if you broke the tail lamp lens on one of those pintaras... it would be written off
as there were no spare parts for them...
Italian cars were very bad for rust... they mustn't have been rustproofed or waxed when sold in australia..
Some of the Alfas were lemons in regard to breaking down and reliability problems..
The U12 pintara's were actually the new Zealand Bluebird and the local dealers didn't want them.I think the only collaboration on Ford's part was
the design of the badges.The lights were made locally by Britax and weren't particularly well sealed as they used to fill with water and then fill
the boot.
The Fiats didn't have any rustproofing and prior to the pre delivery service we used to take them to the panel shop to get the rust fixed,this was
the days of the 124,124S coupe and 125's . All other cars coming into Australia at that stage were sprayed with a horrible wax that had to be removed
by hand.
les
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68AutoBug
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 posted on April 22nd, 2009 at 12:02 AM |
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Now I agree that Hillman Imps were sort of lemons...
many people still bought them...
but it wasn't long before they had ALL disappeared...
front suspension was very basic...
so was the rest of the car... lol
I don't know what the weakness was...??
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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 Bizarre
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| posted on April 22nd, 2009 at 02:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dAVo
If there's a car that's really hard on my eyes it's the Subaru Vortex. God dam they are the ugliest car ever!!
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Saw an immaculate one of these today on Parra Rd Auburn
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Joel
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| posted on April 22nd, 2009 at 04:08 PM |
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i dont know why he'd class them as lemons
yea they're as ugly as sin but ea82t were good motors and they drove as well as any other allegedly sporty 80s coupes
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donn
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| posted on April 22nd, 2009 at 09:06 PM |
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Way I see it is the Vortex was way ahead of its' time, had the sliperiest shape of anything on the road at the time, reckon a head wind would have
just made it go faster.
I dream of a day when a chicken can cross a road without being asked for it's motive!
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68AutoBug
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| posted on April 22nd, 2009 at 09:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by grumble
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 68AutoBug
the PINTARA/CORSAIR cars jointly designed and sold by Nissan and Ford...
I never heard any bad stories about them either...
I was told a few years ago that if you broke the tail lamp lens on one of those pintaras... it would be written off
as there were no spare parts for them...
The U12 pintara's were actually the new Zealand Bluebird and the local dealers didn't want them.I think the only collaboration on Ford's part was
the design of the badges.The lights were made locally by Britax and weren't particularly well sealed as they used to fill with water and then fill
the boot.
les
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Hi Les,
I believe the Corsair and pintaras lights were different...
and the shapes were definately different..
especially the Nissan Pintara with their weird rear end.. lol
I can only remember the two body shapes...
the Corsair - normall looking car - the Pintara was the odd looking one...
Who made them?? Nissan Australia???
any figures on how many were made...
I've heard worse things about the ford mondeo which was sold here a few years ago...
they were lemons mechanically...
went great for 30,000 kms approx.. then things started to break/wear out....
LEE
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- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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Joel
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| posted on April 22nd, 2009 at 09:42 PM |
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Lee the U12 pintaras and UA corsairs were the same car coming out of the nissan factory ford just slapped some different trim and there own badges on
to try and differentiate the two. same thing they did with telstars, festivas, lasers etc
your thinking of the hatchback/liftback which was availble in both pintara and corsair again same car just abit of different trim
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