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 Baja Wes
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| posted on February 13th, 2004 at 04:35 PM |
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If the dyno is only measuring roller speed (kph) then it will only know the wheel HP, and wheel torque (or more accurately force).
If the dyno is attached to the tacho of the engine, then it can calculate the engine torque, but measured at the wheels so less the efficiency.
Does the dyno graph plot HP vs road speed? If so you will have to calculate the torque. You will need to know what gear the dyno pull was done in, and
what ratio that gear and the diff ratio was, along with the tyre diameter. If the torque quoted was roller torque then you need to know the roller
diameter too.
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on February 13th, 2004 at 05:06 PM |
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| Quote: |
If the dyno is only measuring roller speed (kph) then it will only know the wheel HP, and wheel torque (or more accurately force).
If the dyno is attached to the tacho of the engine, then it can calculate the engine torque, but measured at the wheels so less the efficiency.
Does the dyno graph plot HP vs road speed? If so you will have to calculate the torque. You will need to know what gear the dyno pull was done in, and
what ratio that gear and the diff ratio was, along with the tyre diameter. If the torque quoted was roller torque then you need to know the roller
diameter too.
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The dyno can be either directly connected to the coil for the tacho or by inputting a ratio on the tacho to the rollers.
It can graph to road speed or engine rmp.
The gearing etc can be input for it to work out engine HP and torque as well as at the wheels.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on February 16th, 2004 at 09:08 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HotRodMatt
The dyno can be either directly connected to the coil for the tacho
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That's what I said, so yes.
| Quote: | or by inputting a
ratio on the tacho to the rollers.
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That's not normally done. If they don't connect the tacho then they simply plot HP vs road speed.
| Quote: | The gearing etc can
be input for it to work out engine HP and torque as well as at the wheels.
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Actually the dyno doesn't need to know the gearing or engine speed to calculate the wheel HP.
And a chassis dyno will never calculate engine HP. The operator may use a rule of thumb gearbox efficiency to give an indication of flywheel HP, but
again doesn't need to know anything about the ratios.
The dyno will measure wheel force, the force acting tangential to the wheel. If the dyno knows the engine rpm it can calulate the torque from the HP
readings, but again it will be out by the gearbox efficiency.
If you don't know the rpm readings, you can convert the wheel force or roller torque to an equivalent engine torque using the gear ratios and
tyre diameter, but again it will be out by the gearbox efficiency.
I have converted a HP vs road speed graph to HP vs rpm and then torque vs rpm for Craig in the past. It is in one of the old threads.
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Gracey
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| posted on February 16th, 2004 at 03:31 PM |
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Rear wheels =121.5hp at 6000rpm
At the Flywheel= 147.8hp at 6000rpm
Torque = 700 ft lb at 4500rpm
This is impressive HP for these revs keeping in mind this is a stock stroke motor. Very nice combo.
By the way in my other post regarding tuning I wasn't sugesting that Stan doesn't tune motors for customers but rather that a lot of his
engines are sent as long engines without accessories such as carbs etc. Therefore it would be very hard for him to control what the customer does.
Andrew Grace
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 Bizarre
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| posted on February 16th, 2004 at 03:35 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gracey
Therefore it would be very hard for him to control what the customer does.
Andrew Grace
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Does he still offer warranty on long blocks??
Stuffed if i would!
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Baja Wes
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| posted on February 16th, 2004 at 04:06 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gracey
Rear wheels =121.5hp at 6000rpm
At the Flywheel= 147.8hp at 6000rpm
Torque = 700 ft lb at 4500rpm
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stop quoting the 700ft.lbs, it's got nothing to do with the engine.
121.5HP @ 6000rpm equates to 106 ft.lbs of torque.
The peak torque is usually produced lower in the rev range than the peak power so peak torque will be more than 106ft.lbs, my guess is prob close to
120ft.lbs.
And that engine HP is an estimate, by using the wheel HP and dividing by an estimated gearbox efficiency. So it should say estimated engine HP ~
148HP.
An 8 liter V10 Dodge Viper motor has a little under 500ft.lbs of torque. So that gives you an idea how out of whack quoting the 700ft.lbs figure
looks.
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jakriz
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| posted on February 16th, 2004 at 06:58 PM |
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Wes is there any difference in using either 3rd or 4th gear, all of my dyno tests have been done in third but I think I read somewhere that the 120
from the 1916 was done in 4th.
The reason I ask is that in one of the American mags, they were commenting on a particular cars output & they also said that they 'only'
used 3rd gear whereas all the other cars used 4th gear. Does it make a lick of difference??
regards
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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Peter Leonard
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| posted on February 16th, 2004 at 07:40 PM |
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yes, surely there's some reason it could be wrong 
did the american mag say what the ratios were? or the wheel diameters? does it matter at ALL? maybe their 4th was the other guys third anyway...
while we're at it, what speeds at what revs determine whether you have an L-bug gearbox or a superbug gearbox?
I'm doing 270 Kph in third at 1200 rpm
is that tall? hehehe
let sleeping dubs lie
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on February 16th, 2004 at 09:20 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
The torque quoted is torque at the wheel or rollers. It is completely different to the torque at the engine, as torque is multiplied up by the gear
and diff ratios, and reduced by the gearbox efficiency.
HP is not effected by the gear ratios, only the gearbox efficiency.
Basically those torque figures mean nothing and are only comparitive to each other, as long as they were both achieved in the same gear.
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Jak, here is your answer re HP. Basically Horsepower is the same in every gear because you are not changing the horsepower of the motor. The motor is
still producing the same Horsepower regardless of gearing, what changes is the torque. A gearbox is a torque multipler. So if you did a dyno run in
first gear the HP will be the same but the torque will be massive compared to say 4th gear.
I have since found out that Troy's Dyno run was done in third gear, the same gear as his dyno day run .:thumb
Wes, I hope this is correct !
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Baja Wes
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| posted on February 17th, 2004 at 09:18 AM |
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yes Craig your pretty much right there.
There are two basic types of dyno's, inertial and load types. Inertial are usually the cheapest and are more prone to the effects of gear
selection, because each gear multiplies the drivetrain inertia differently (a square of the ratio).
A dyno dynamics dyno is a load type dyno and is more accurate. The company has also made what they call "shoot-out" mode. They have made it
as an industry standard method of testing HP, so no matter which dyno you test the car on you get the same results.
The load type dyno is still effected by drivetrain inertia but not as badly. The operator will enter the vehicles drivetrain inertia from a standard
list of vehicles, however if the drivetrain or engine is modified the figure will be slightly out. This can lead to a small difference in HP figures
between gears. Some gears are also slightly different in efficiency than others.
So dyno guys will dyno the car in the highest gear possible, without exceeding the max roller speed. The max roller speed on most dynos is between
200-250kph, so third gear on a VW is normally used.
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Gracey
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| posted on February 17th, 2004 at 12:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by blue74l
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gracey
Therefore it would be very hard for him to control what the customer does.
Andrew Grace
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Does he still offer warranty on long blocks??
Stuffed if i would!
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Well I brought my steriods years ago as a long block and it came with a warranty. So I guess so but you would have to check with Stan. What I do know
is that Stan invests a lot of time helping and advising his customers so as to get the best setup. What they do with that advice is up to them.
Andrew Grace
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Baja Wes
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| posted on February 17th, 2004 at 12:33 PM |
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a note from admin, I have deleted a few posts in this thread because they have absolutely nothing to do with this thread. :thumb
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Gracey
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| posted on February 17th, 2004 at 12:45 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Gracey
Rear wheels =121.5hp at 6000rpm
At the Flywheel= 147.8hp at 6000rpm
Torque = 700 ft lb at 4500rpm
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stop quoting the 700ft.lbs, it's got nothing to do with the engine.
121.5HP @ 6000rpm equates to 106 ft.lbs of torque.
The peak torque is usually produced lower in the rev range than the peak power so peak torque will be more than 106ft.lbs, my guess is prob close to
120ft.lbs.
And that engine HP is an estimate, by using the wheel HP and dividing by an estimated gearbox efficiency. So it should say estimated engine HP ~
148HP.
An 8 liter V10 Dodge Viper motor has a little under 500ft.lbs of torque. So that gives you an idea how out of whack quoting the 700ft.lbs figure
looks.
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I'll take your word for it regarding torque but my post was referring to the HP made at a given rpm for a stock stroke motor ie. a lot at
relatively low rpm.
Andrew Grace
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bigbruvabob
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| posted on February 22nd, 2004 at 01:09 PM |
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cool and can't wait
Thats nice power, and makes me very happy as my pobjoy 1916 base with ally case and 40 dells is ready and waiting for the rest of my car to catch up.
Mine however is not the steroids version i wonder if ill get 100 + hp ? On the cost side of things i recently got three quotes from three diff
builders A Pobjoy and a pro built stroker and a pro built type 4 i dont mind telling that i went with the pobjoy, the prices were roughly as follows
Pobjoy 1916 base with ally case complete no carbies $6700.
Stroker 75.5 * 90.5 no clutch, carbies ,exhaust , tin ware $ 8800
Type 4 conversion total rebuild complete with porche fan and alternator ,no carbies $9700.
For comparison i also just bought a total new head to head stock 1600 fitted for my girlfriends car and it was $2150.
I am not sure what people are going to think about the etiquette of me putting these figures on here but in my view this is relevant information (
prices obtained 4 weeks ago, and rounded to nearest $100) that any body can obtain with the willingness to make 3 phonecalls. The steroids version (u
can get price of the pobjoys) is more again I hope this doesn,t upset to many people.:kiss
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bigbruvabob
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| posted on February 22nd, 2004 at 01:42 PM |
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oh and again
oops i forgot something, Once i get motor in my car i will need somebody in the melb area to dyno tune and jet my car for me it will be running 40
drlas that were previously on a 1835. Can anybody recommend somebody with relevant know how that will be willing to tune a new motor built by some
one else, i dont wanna get caught up in the whole whos best builder bull i just would like to know who i can go to help get the most out of my new
baby? A friend mentioned that a porche race shop might be the go?
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Peter Leonard
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 posted on February 22nd, 2004 at 05:01 PM |
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:thumb :thumb congrats bigbruvabob. you're gonna love it  :thumb
:thumb
someone once said there are three things you choose a motor based on (cost, reliability, and power) but you can only have two. looks like you managed
to get all three
let us know how it goes, I beat the crap outta my base 1916, and sold it to Craig after that in kit form (pulling it down showed that it was in
obscenely good nick) except for the 94's which I kept for the steroids motor.
have fun, but don't lose your license
let sleeping dubs lie
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on February 22nd, 2004 at 08:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bigbruvabob
Pobjoy 1916 base with ally case complete no carbies $6700.
Stroker 75.5 * 90.5 no clutch, carbies ,exhaust , tin ware $ 8800
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Thanks for the prices :thumb
WOW $8800 for the stroker long block :jesus Then add another $1500 for new Carbies, $300-$500 for a clutch, $400 for exhaust, tinware etc etc
that's well over $11000 !
All the best with your new motor
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Peter Leonard
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| posted on February 22nd, 2004 at 11:55 PM |
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shoehorning
| Quote: | All the best with
your new motor
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won't be worrying about fitting it in the bay either
let sleeping dubs lie
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bug eyed
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| posted on February 23rd, 2004 at 12:32 PM |
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--- quote----Mine however is not the steroids version i wonder if ill get 100 + hp ? -----
I think eyeryone agrees .........
No not 100hp
even if it's 75 or 85 that is still a big jump in ponies.
can you outline what you get in your engine for that sort of money
new case- check
stans cam - ?
big 94's - check
stock exhaust - ?
stock heads - ?
stock clutch - ?
stock crank - ?
balanced- ?
new tinware - ?
new 009-?
stan expertise - check
fitting - ?
then we can start to compare apples and bananas, even though it's hard to put a price on genius.
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Secoh
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| posted on February 24th, 2004 at 11:37 AM |
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I think some people are getting confused between engine torque, and tractive effort which is a measure at the rollers, and is not a direct
link to engine power.
If it aint broke,
Make it go faster!!  |
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on February 24th, 2004 at 11:52 AM |
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Tractive effort is essentially torque at the wheels. A gearbox is a torque converter. I think most people are more interested in what is happeneing at
the wheels than at the flywheel.
For those who want flywheel readings the machine can be given the info and it can calculate back. Some dynos even have hundreds of factory
combinations to choose from to give this information.
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Secoh
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| posted on February 24th, 2004 at 02:05 PM |
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have a read of this, this is pretty interesting:
clicky
If it aint broke,
Make it go faster!! |
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bigbruvabob
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| posted on February 24th, 2004 at 03:59 PM |
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particulars
ok here we go, new alluminium case, crank ground and lynished, all new bearings and seals,37/68 cam,hd 30mmoil pump,new pushrod tubes, new 94 p and c,
anti surge deep sump,crom stud kit,trw 040 comp heads ported and matched to new manifolds,soft bonded clutch and pressure plate,009 dizzy and squizot
coil,thunderbird extractors and clamp kit, spakplugs and ignition cables,new oil cooler,decked lightened and dowelled flywheel,dynamic balancing,
other bits and pieces and stans magic, i supplied generator,some tin and a pair of 40 dells which i am hoping will give me a bit more hp over the
standard base kadrons.am also going to fit a porche fan alt and shroud as soon as i russle up another grand.
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bug eyed
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| posted on February 24th, 2004 at 04:57 PM |
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now that's a good price !!
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lugnuts
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| posted on February 25th, 2004 at 01:38 AM |
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Hey,bigbruvabob dude,is it a std crank or counterweighted,just curious thanks |
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bigbruvabob
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| posted on February 25th, 2004 at 09:18 PM |
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its standard i was going to get the c/w crank it costs about $600 more but stan said that it really wouldn't make much diff without the more
serious heads and carbs that he uses on the steroids motor and that if i wanted to upgrade to the roids motor at a later date he would still have to
tear it all down to do anyway.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on March 2nd, 2004 at 05:09 PM |
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As promised, copy of dyno run. Please note this was done in shootout mode.
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Peter Leonard
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| posted on March 2nd, 2004 at 07:22 PM |
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now that's a tasty lookin apple :thumb
puts a lot out there when you see troy's driveability curve and all..
let sleeping dubs lie
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on March 3rd, 2004 at 01:09 PM |
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That's pretty impressive; peak stock horsepower from about 3050 rpm, and generally uphill all the way from there... Peak power at 5800-ish...
That seems to be a very useable power curve! Hell, I'd be happy if my kombi made that kind of power!! :o
I'd love to see a torque curve - was it graphed at all?
Kruizin Kol
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on March 3rd, 2004 at 02:54 PM |
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torque curve is on the bottom of the graph :thumb.... measurement is on the right of the graph. :thumb
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