| [ Total Views: 136076 | Total Replies: 190 | Thread Id: 27098 ] |
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 11CAB
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
If ya got it....Baja it
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| posted on September 25th, 2004 at 10:16 PM |
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Hey Rosco, definately bring the floorpan to the show, I'm keen to see the whole setup which would be much easier to see without the body. I'm sure
there would be plenty of interest in it too.
Then finish it and show the whole car off......:bounce
65 Meyers Manx
68 Country Buggy (KO 367)
68 Country Buggy (KO 669)
68 Country Buggy (KO 789)
68 Country Buggy (KO 815)
68 Baja Bug
76 Baja Kombi Twincab
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ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
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| posted on September 27th, 2004 at 12:51 PM |
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Hmmm, I'll see how things pan out - I don't want to waste too much time on making it into a temporary display if I can better use the time to
complete the car ... but I would like to have it there....
R
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ratty 63
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| posted on October 4th, 2004 at 10:22 AM |
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Hi all,
just a quick update:
I Emailed Alan at Kalmaker (the manufacturers of the ECU I am using) and asked about this intermittant 'personality swapping' issue - where the ECU
changes from thinking it is controlling a 4 cylinder to an 8 cylinder. He tells me that he had never seen it happen before but his best guess was
that the Resistor Pack (or Respak as it is known) was faulty. The respak is fitted to the ECU and tells it how many cylinders it is controlling. In
this way the ECU knows how much fuel to inject at each pulse (ie: 4 cylinder needs 1/4 total amount of fuel per pulse, 8 cylinder needs 1/8 amount of
fuel per pulse). If the ECU thought that it was connected to an 8 cylinder it would only inject 1/2 the amount of fuel required for a 4 cylinder in a
complete cycle, so therefore the engine would run lean.
...anyway, Alan suggested that to save time (and postage) that I run a soldering iron over the respak incase this was the problem, and if this didn't
fix it, then I should send the ECU back to him and he would check it over. (imagine the problems/damage you could cause to the equipment, telling
your customer to attack something with a soldering iron! - lucky I have a 'bit' of experience at soldering). Before I touched it with a soldering
iron, I ran my multimeter over the respak to see if I could find the problem. One of the 5 sets of pins (that are connected) on the respac was open
circuit. I checked out the solder connections with a magnifying glass to see if I could see why, but the solder joint looked perfect!. Then I
re-soldered the joint and re-tested - all OK. This joint must have been intermittant as the ECU would work correctly sometimes and not others, and
with a perfect looking solder joint, it would have been impossible to test/predict for this failure. I was just unlucky.
I have had the ECU back together and running during the weekend (around 1 hour of run time so far) and have had no problems - the cylinder size is now
set as 412cc/cyl (which is the correct measurement for this engine). Looks like it's all OK now.
As I mentioned before, I was surprised that Alan suggested that I re-solder the respak myself, but his only interest was to save me the down time that
sending the unit back to him would have caused. Personally I think that was great! :thumb Half an hour with a multimeter and a soldering iron and
away we go again. Woohoo!
I am seriously considering bringing the pan/engine to our show in November - it will depend on a few things though (I've now been waiting for 4 weeks
for my front end to be re-built, and as far as I know they haven't started it yet  - hope its not another crank bearing length delay (4 years and still counting))...we will see what happens - I am about to make a
phone call to stir things up....
R 
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on October 4th, 2004 at 11:10 AM |
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Well here's hoping that's all the problem was! It's amazing how much time can be wated on a dry joint, I had a similar problem with my central
locking for the kombi. :duh
Pan/complete car.... makes no difference to me, as I won't be there to see it. What I'm hanging out for is a dyno sheet!! :bounce
Kruizin Kol
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56astro
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| posted on October 4th, 2004 at 01:30 PM |
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Good news Ratty.
I bet that's a relief!!
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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ratty 63
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| posted on October 6th, 2004 at 12:53 PM |
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..yeah, definatly a relief after all the problems (mechanical) that I have had it was nice to have something simple for a change. Everything is still
running fine...but I still hesitate to say that it is 100% yet...its the old story, as soon as I say it is perfect, something will go wrong! So in my
world, nothing is perfect!!
The body of the car is going to the blasters in the next couple of days so things will be moving a little quicker - I hope to have this vehicle
registered (or very, very close to registered) by Christmas...reckon its possible?
Crank bearing issue is beginning to move too...
R
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Midlife crisis
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| posted on October 6th, 2004 at 01:14 PM |
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Good to hear the news that the ECU is sorted. Ross can't wait to see it
Marc
If you can't laugh at yourself you can't laugh at anyone else! Because life is to short not to LAUGH
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ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
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| posted on October 15th, 2004 at 12:44 PM |
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Hey Marc,
If your in this area at any stage and would like to have a look at it (it's not much to look at at the moment - still needs to be tidied up - but it
does run! ) just drop in.
As I explained to Marc at the Byron show on Sunday, after much consideration, I have decided that I will complete the car and install everything
correctly before displaying the 'finished product'. I considered that I could easily spend a week (or more) sorting out and cleaning up the wiring
and hoses so that it was presentable - only to have to pull it all apart and do it again once the body is back on the pan. I feel that I would be
better off spending this time getting the body closer to being re-united with the pan than fiddling with presentation of the EFI for our show...
So whats happening with the rest of you? Anyone any closer to getting their system running?
R
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MickH
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| posted on October 15th, 2004 at 02:46 PM |
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turn the key next Wednesday apparently.....will let you know how i go!!
tssnq.com.au
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bugboymatt
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| posted on October 15th, 2004 at 05:19 PM |
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MIck where did you get your efi from ? any idea of price !!! u2u if ya not wanna broadcast price's.
Cheers Mate.
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on October 15th, 2004 at 08:28 PM |
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This may/may not be of intrest........
http://www.carburetion.com/Weber/weberinjection.asp
tssnq.com.au
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bugboymatt
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| posted on October 16th, 2004 at 11:55 AM |
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Thanks for that. :bounce
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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ratty 63
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| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 02:30 PM |
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Non return fuel systems
Hi everyone,
I was just reading some info on an EFI related forum when I stumbled across a discussion relating to the current model VY Commodore. Apparently
Holden are claiming that they (the VY) use a non-return fuel system - ie: the fuel does not return to the tank... not sure why they would go to this
effort (there must be a cost benifit, but what else?:duh)
The details were a little vague:duh, but it would appear that they either have a pump that has a pressure release regulator built in, or the return
from the fuel rail is returned into the low pressure side of the fuel pump. Apparently this is becomming very popular with the hotrod folks as it
saves them fitting return lines and fitting to the tanks (makes sense to me!:thumb)
Has anyone heard of this? Anyone with connections to Holden that can find out more - this would make fitting an EFI system just that bit easier if it
is true. 
R
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VWCOOL
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| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 03:30 PM |
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Non-return fuel systems was introduced on the Holden V8 Gen III in 1999. It works better for power, emissions and driveability because it keeps the
fuel cooler in the fuel tank (less vapour emissions) , while allowing the fuel to heat up in the fuel rail, giving a better atomisation etc
I am not sure about the pump/plumbing specs - it is in-tank and must have an internal pressure regulator
[Edited on 20-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 03:53 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
or the return from the fuel rail is returned into the low pressure side of the fuel pump. Apparently this is becomming very popular with the hotrod
folks as it saves them fitting return lines and fitting to the tanks (makes sense to me!:thumb)
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Maybe it would work for the hot-rod guys as most of them don't run their engines for more than 10 mins
The problem there is that the fuel rail in your normal set-up gets quite hot. This in-turn heats up the fuel in the rail, and if you return it
straight to the pump suction you simply recycle hot fuel around the fuel rail, which gets hotter and hotter...
When I originally set my car up with the return to the surge tank and no recirculation to the main tank, the hot fuel from the rail heated up the
surge tank and caused problems. So bypassing the surge tank and recirculating straight to the pump will be even worse!
One way to the fuel rail would make a little more sense. the hot fuel doesn't come back to the pump and cause problems there. It simply sits in the
rail compressed under pressure. It may vaporise once it's injected but if it still burns who cares.
A normal HP EFI pump wouldn't like pumping against a dead head (virtually no flow), so they must have a new design of pump. Maybe it's really cool
and is variable speed and only pumps as much fuel is require to match the engine and keep the pressure, therefore saving energy by running slow at
idle or cruise. hmmm, would be interesting to see what they are doing....
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type1ute
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| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 04:10 PM |
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nce the pump gets to a certain pressure don't they cut out??? noidea wat i am talking about, just curious
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 04:55 PM |
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no, not HP EFI pumps, they just keep pumping.
If they did cut on and off they would be doing that constantly and the pressure would be spiking up and down.
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tassupervee
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| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 09:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
Hi everyone,
I was just reading some info on an EFI related forum when I stumbled across a discussion relating to the current model VY Commodore. Apparently
Holden are claiming that they (the VY) use a non-return fuel system - ie: the fuel does not return to the tank... not sure why they would go to this
effort (there must be a cost benifit, but what else?:duh)
R
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This got me to thinking and a good M8 of mine in Melb. is a development engineer at GMH so i asked him about this and he laughed heartily.
Evidently, not true!
l8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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VWCOOL
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| posted on October 20th, 2004 at 10:01 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by tassupervee
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
Hi everyone,
I was just reading some info on an EFI related forum when I stumbled across a discussion relating to the current model VY Commodore. Apparently
Holden are claiming that they (the VY) use a non-return fuel system - ie: the fuel does not return to the tank... not sure why they would go to this
effort (there must be a cost benifit, but what else?:duh)
R
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This got me to thinking and a good M8 of mine in Melb. is a development engineer at GMH so i asked him about this and he laughed heartily.
Evidently, not true!
l8tr
E
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well, er, your M8 is wrong, coz that's how it's been done for 5 years with the Gen III and now introuced on the HFV6
Pay your debts, CxxT
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tassupervee
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That really hurts doesnt it!
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| posted on October 21st, 2004 at 03:43 PM |
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Oh well, I guess he does not know what he is talking about then.
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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ratty 63
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| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 12:20 PM |
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Does anyone have one of these cars? I would be interested to see exactly how the fuel system works.....
R
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tassupervee
A.k.a.: Knob Jockey
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| posted on October 22nd, 2004 at 01:42 PM |
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Dont even think about it Ratty!
Hehehehehe!
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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tassupervee
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That really hurts doesnt it!
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| posted on October 24th, 2004 at 05:25 PM |
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Oh, bty.
The guy at GMH who works as a design engineer requests VWCOOL to provide a detailed description, and where he got his information, of the static
(non-returning) fuel supply systems, including the 2 hoses that come from the tank, apart from the tank vent, that have apparently been in use now
for the last 5 years, surprisingly to him without his knowledge.
He also said he has had quite some years developing both those engines fuel systems both in and out of the cars and the fitting of that newer engine
to the new Rodeos due out in a few years, and says he has a bit of a problem with not knowing anything about the fuel system that he actually designed
and heads will roll in the R & D department for using a fuel system that he is not familiar with.
Thanks in advance M8.
Dont go flaming me, I'm the messenger.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
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| posted on February 22nd, 2005 at 12:15 PM |
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EFI systems spotted whilst out and about...
Grrr … why is it that every time I post a huge post the forum crashes or otherwise ‘eats’ my post….:bounce
OK, try again….
I thought that this might be of interest to some of you who are still looking at creating an EFI system. A couple of weekends ago I spotted a
‘68/’69 Bug in the carpark at the Boondal Entertainment centre (the meeting point for Dubs by the Pub). It appeared that the car had recently
been rebuilt and it looked great. The engine lid was up so I wandered around and had a closer look and this is what I found:
The owner of the vehicle was nearby talking to a couple of interested on-lookers so I took the opportunity to join in. The system is a Haltech system
which the owner tells me is basically an off the shelf/ bolt on system. The only thing that the installer had to do was created the injector mounts
in the manifold end castings. As you may be able to see from the pic below, they encountered same problem with placing the injectors in the same
position as the type III manifold as I found when I created my injector mounts…in this position the injectors come in contact with the side of the
engine bay. To get around this issue, they had cut a chunk of metal out of each side of the engine bay….
The centre section of the manifold is interesting too. I’m not sure why the upright section of the manifold is angled like that…perhaps so that
the accelerator cable lines up with the TB? If so, why wasn’t this addressed when the manifold centre was designed? Being on this angle, it makes
fitting an air filter very difficult!
The owner of the car mentioned that he had not yet had a long drive of the car as they were still having trouble with the engine overheating when used
at high speeds – it was still fitted with the non-vented ‘68/’69 rear lid and the engine is a 1916cc…so this would likely be part of the
problem!
I particularly liked the idea of the crank fired ignition, which was part of the off-the-shelf install. Apparently the entire EFI system fits using
supplied brackets and existing bolts. The only mod required was to mount the magnets in the back of the pulley (small drill and a bit of glue).
I was told that the system was laptop tuneable, but the owner had had the system installed and tuned by a workshop, as he didn’t want to try it
himself. I stuck my head under the back of the car and couldn’t see an Oxygen sensor (it may have been there, but I didn’t see it), so this would
be one reason why you would have it done by a workshop.
Whilst I was taking a couple of pics of the engine, one of the on-lookers asked how much a system such as this was worth….the reply was $4000 plus
fitting and tuning! :duh
….makes my $2000 system look even better to me!
Oh yeah, I asked about a surge tank set-up and was informed that no surge tank was fitted – apparently the workshop that fitted the system felt that
a surge tank was of no real use on a road car….hmmmm.
Did anyone else get a look at this system? What are your thoughts? What about other sytems? Is anyone else getting anywhere with there systems?
Tell us about them (and show us the pics too )
I'm still looking at converting my ignition system to a crank fire system as I need the space where the dissy is for the A/C compressor!
R
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ratty 63
A.k.a.: Rossco
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| posted on February 22nd, 2005 at 12:17 PM |
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crank angle sensor....
If anyone would like a better quality version of these pics sent to them, just let me know....
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on February 22nd, 2005 at 12:49 PM |
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Nice shots Ratty.
Not real keen on the no surge tank idea - fine if you only ever run with at least 1/4 of a tank of juice I guess.... but sounds dodgy to me.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on February 22nd, 2005 at 03:59 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by tassupervee
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
Hi everyone,
I was just reading some info on an EFI related forum when I stumbled across a discussion relating to the current model VY Commodore. Apparently
Holden are claiming that they (the VY) use a non-return fuel system - ie: the fuel does not return to the tank... not sure why they would go to this
effort (there must be a cost benifit, but what else?:duh)
R
|
This got me to thinking and a good M8 of mine in Melb. is a development engineer at GMH so i asked him about this and he laughed heartily.
Evidently, not true!
l8tr
E
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WRONG. Been doing it that way on the V8s for six years...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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VWCOOL
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| posted on February 22nd, 2005 at 04:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by tassupervee
Oh, bty.
The guy at GMH who works as a design engineer requests VWCOOL to provide a detailed description, and where he got his information, of the static
(non-returning) fuel supply systems, including the 2 hoses that come from the tank, apart from the tank vent, that have apparently been in use now
for the last 5 years, surprisingly to him without his knowledge.
He also said he has had quite some years developing both those engines fuel systems both in and out of the cars and the fitting of that newer engine
to the new Rodeos due out in a few years, and says he has a bit of a problem with not knowing anything about the fuel system that he actually designed
and heads will roll in the R & D department for using a fuel system that he is not familiar with.
Thanks in advance M8.
Dont go flaming me, I'm the messenger.
L8tr
E
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lol... Take a look at any GEN III powered Commodore - they have no line return to the tank. The now-redundant 'stub' is there (it looks like a
nipple) on the upper near-side surface of the fuel tank. You can see it by kneeling down and looking - it was last used with the V8s on the
Aussie-engined VT.
Gen IIIs have only one (pressured) fuel line, from the tank to the fuel rail. They have no return from the rail to the tank. They have no pressure reg
on the fuel rail. Those processes are now taken care of within the fuel tank/fuel pump. Read the first few pages of the Holden-published Gen III
engine service manual (blue cover, first edition 1999, VTII - before they went to CDs) and it explains the returnless system there, and its effect on
performance and evap emissions.
It's been introduced on the V6s, too... I think with VY, definitely on the HFV6 in VZ
I heard about the HFV6/Rodeo development a while back - it should be a damn good truck!
[Edited on 22-2-2005 by VWCOOL]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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VWCOOL
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Mood: happy to help
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| posted on February 22nd, 2005 at 04:41 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
or the return from the fuel rail is returned into the low pressure side of the fuel pump. Apparently this is becomming very popular with the hotrod
folks as it saves them fitting return lines and fitting to the tanks (makes sense to me!:thumb)
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Maybe it would work for the hot-rod guys as most of them don't run their engines for more than 10 mins
The problem there is that the fuel rail in your normal set-up gets quite hot. This in-turn heats up the fuel in the rail, and if you return it
straight to the pump suction you simply recycle hot fuel around the fuel rail, which gets hotter and hotter...
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That's why many EFI systems such as what is used on Holdens are now returnless - there is no endless recirculation of fuel through a hot engine bay,
so the fuel in the tank stays cold... and the 'hot' fuel in the rail is easier to digest into a cold intake charge (most cars have plastic manifold
these days - don't heat up the intake charge as much) for better emissions and performance. Top idea when you think about it...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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OvalGlen
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| posted on May 21st, 2005 at 04:49 PM |
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How is Ratty going?
Hope he has made further progress
Regards,Glenn>
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