| [ Total Views: 259388 | Total Replies: 268 | Thread Id: 36884 ] |
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 VWCOOL
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| posted on May 31st, 2006 at 10:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
I have driven this car hard for over 1000kms, the brakes are 
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lol... if I can keep you happy, you maniac, they must be okay!
[ Edited on 31-5-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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VWCOOL
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| posted on August 31st, 2006 at 11:46 AM |
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Another update!
Development continues... Due to the surprisingly large costs involved in having custom front hubs made, I have decided to base the front big brakes
package on standard VW front discs machined down to its hub.
The advantages? I will be able to offer the brake package at approximately $800 less than with the billet front hubs, allowing me to reach my $ target
of around $1500, rather than $2300++ which was too much $. I know... I paid that (and more) for the prototypes!
The disadvantages? None, really, except the PCD with the big brakes will be VW four-stud only. There will also be a slight increase in track of around
6mm per side compared to the billet hubs.
The remainder of the hardware remains the same - a tough billet calliper bracket on a machined VW spindle, mounting a Corvette/Commodore V8 finned
alloy calliper over a 287/24mm ventilated, slotted disc.
I am waiting for DBA (disc brakes manufacturer) to produce the rotors that I require - they are on 'back order'. Then I will - at long last! - be
able to supply the big brake package to people with hi-po Bugs (BJ front end only) and Type 3s. If enough people ask, I will also offer teh big brakes
for S and L-Bugs.
As mentioned in an earlier post, I have been playing with a high-performance rear disc conversion, too. Like the front brakes, it uses easily-sourced
street-legal Australian PBR brake callipers with an integral handbrake and 260mm diameter DBA rotors. As many of us know, Type 3 hubs are hard to find
these days so I have based this new kit around a standard VW Beetle brake drum machined to create a 'hub'. It, too, will be VW four-stud PCD as I
really don't like the idea of redrilled etc hubs and my efforts to find a manufacturer of 'blank' splined hubs have been fruitless.
Overall, these components are smaller and lighter (less than 9kg total mass per side) than the Falcon discs for cars whose performance levels (eg
naturally aspirated etc) don't require a massive brake.
Being smaller (260x10mm) these brakes fit inside a 14-inch wheel. That will make them appeal to those of us with fast street/weekend hoon VWs as an
alternative to finding, reconditioning and installing Type 3 drums.
My prototype kit hasn't been fitted to my own car for testing yet but of course, I will test these rear brakes almost to death and make sure they
work properly with both standard 278x10mm VW front discs and master cylinder, and my big 280x24mm vented fronts (that requires a 25mm master
cylinder).
As with the front brakes, I have spent plenty of time and $ to get it all to 'production' and final costs are yet to be determined, but I intend to
make it a nice, budget-friendly package. I'll keep you posted...
[ Edited on 31-8-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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56astro
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| posted on August 31st, 2006 at 11:54 AM |
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GT
Did I recall correctly that the disc package does not fit within the pace provided by the std VW 4-stud wheel?
If so, and the fronts only come in 4x130 PCD, where does that leave the wheel options? Not many 4x130 wheels out there! (or is there?)
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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VWCOOL
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| posted on August 31st, 2006 at 12:03 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
GT
Did I recall correctly that the disc package does not fit within the pace provided by the std VW 4-stud wheel?
If so, and the fronts only come in 4x130 PCD, where does that leave the wheel options? Not many 4x130 wheels out there! (or is there?)
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That's correct, the big vented fronts won't fit within widened steel VW rims. I was very keen to offer different stud patterns to keep everyone
happy, but the extra cost of the hubs required (as outlined above - in excess of $800) was enormous and apart from Porsche, the only wheels available
that offer an approx 37P offset suitable for a VW BJ front end with a bit of camber is Ford AU (as fitted to my own car). Even then, it's only the
15x6-inch steelies that fit under standard guards - the alloys are too wide. Aftermarket alloys for VWs - such as VForce's rims - will required to
use my brakes. Possibly, I can offer Porsche PCD if the demand is there, or manufacture the brakes on a 'we-do-yours' basis (rather than outright or
exchange) for people who already have Porsche PCD machined onto thier VW hubs.
But the new rear discs that I have been working on (in the pic) WILL fit under standard OR widened VW steelies in 14 or 15 inch, making them a good
physical match for standard front discs (278mm VW F, 260mm R). Due to the design of DBA's rotor casting and to keep costs down, these will be
four-stud only.
Will let you know more soon!
[ Edited on 31-8-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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brendo_83
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| posted on September 6th, 2006 at 10:56 AM |
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Would it be possible to machine down front discs from V-force, as I think they sell blank front discs that can be studded to any pattern?
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 6th, 2006 at 11:20 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by brendo_83
Would it be possible to machine down front discs from V-force, as I think they sell blank front discs that can be studded to any pattern?
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yes, it's possible in theory, but I have never, ever, ever seen a 'blank' Superbeetle style front disc with a uniform face thickness (ie no ribs)
that can be machined to another stud pattern
That's why I originally had custom billet hubs designed and made - to allow Commodore, Ford and Porsche PCD
Then you gotta do the rear...
Lots of work and expense for no real benefit, I reckon!
[ Edited on 6-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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hellbugged
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 06:51 AM |
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i'm running front discs, porsche pattern WITH uniform thickness on the back.
no they have not been re-drilled. they were made from blanks.
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johny rotten
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 07:05 AM |
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Blanks are available,...................... you would think an Expert like Glen would have seen plenty.
Who would buy brakes from a Journalist ?
I wouldn,t..
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Euro_67
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 08:11 AM |
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Check out brake system 1, all the work has been done including a billet hub to fit a machined beetle stub, AP four piston calipers and ventilated and
cross drilled rotors.
http://www.remmele-motorsport.com/en/index_aircooled_en.html
[ Edited on 6-9-06 by 1964_Notch ]
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brendo_83
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 10:16 PM |
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Those brakes look awesome, but 1600 pounds, whats that like $4000 or so plus shipping here, way to expensive for my liking,
This is more what I'm talking about :
http://www.beetleracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=57
Dont know about the rear brakes, but wouldn't these be fine to use for the fronts, and at cheap at $110 a piece.
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brendo_83
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 10:18 PM |
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Just noticed they do rears as well.
http://www.beetleracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=56
Does that help at all, I'm really keen on getting some nice performance brakes and running ford rims on my eureka.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 10:34 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dumone
i'm running front discs, porsche pattern WITH uniform thickness on the back.
no they have not been re-drilled. they were made from blanks.
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Yep, I know they do exist, but this little dakker has never, ever seen them, let alone been able to find someone that is willing to supply in retail
quantities! Sad but true... it would have saved me a lot of $!
The closest I have come is a set of Porsche PCD rotors I own, an undrilled casting that retains the four reinforcing ribs behind the wheel mounting
surface, with one stud hole kinda bored into the side of it... yukky!
Dumone, are yours p/n DBA 911s from Disc Brakes Australia? If so, these are "no longer available"...
[ Edited on 7-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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hellbugged
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 10:38 PM |
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yep thats the part number alright, they were also available as blanks too
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 10:39 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
Blanks are available,...................... you would think an Expert like Glen would have seen plenty.
Who would buy brakes from a Journalist ?
I wouldn,t..
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There are 10 pages of information here, Johnny. A lot of it is juicy information about big vented four-wheel disc brakes for high performance VWs. But
some of it - unfortunately - is little more than whimpering from the small kids who sit down the front...
Maybe you could put grab a dictionary - to help with all the big words - and do some reading! :thumb
[ Edited on 7-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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malcolm
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 10:54 PM |
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vw cool when I spoke with dba about blank rotors they said they will do them at a end of a run but you could wait a month.my engineer worked for pbr
he might be able to help.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 11:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1964_Notch
Check out brake system 1, all the work has been done including a billet hub to fit a machined beetle stub, AP four piston calipers and ventilated and
cross drilled rotors.
http://www.remmele-motorsport.com/en/index_aircooled_en.html
[ Edited on 6-9-06 by 1964_Notch ]
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Thanks for making the comparison to what appears to be a nicely-made kit: 290x22 mm vented cross-drilled rotor (mine is 287x24mm and slotted only -
cross drilling is available if you wish) and a 2.9kg calliper (mine is 3kg, not including pads)
But there are other differences:
My package does NOT require 16-inch Porsche pattern wheels (ie: 15-inch alloy wheels can be retained), mine uses Australian-made, ADR-certified
components (allowing easy street-legal engineering certification in all states - something that is impossible with many 'race only' callipers), plus
the pads, rebuild kits etc are available at your local Super Cheap or Repco...
And I think you'll be happy to discover that mine will be a lot less $, too, after converting from Euros and shipping your old steering knuckles to
Europe! 
[ Edited on 7-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 7th, 2006 at 11:34 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by malcolm
vw cool when I spoke with dba about blank rotors they said they will do them at a end of a run but you could wait a month.my engineer worked for pbr
he might be able to help.
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Thanks Malcolm, you are right - the 'blank' rotors must be produced within a normal production run, done from month to month - or less - depending
on demand. I have 287x24mm vented rotors on back-order for my Beetle/Type 3 vented front brake package, but sadly it seems the solid VW 'blanks'
are no longer produced
[ Edited on 7-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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malcolm
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| posted on September 8th, 2006 at 12:01 AM |
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the next thing is 2 peice disc & hat up to $1200 a set give Race Brakes a call their in Sydney & Victoria Howard reynalds in vic is excellent .
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malcolm
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| posted on September 8th, 2006 at 12:05 AM |
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I guy I know had new dba rotors with twin piston pbr calipers on a ball joint front end try this who helphim out
http://www.hoppers.com.au/index.html
Hoppers Stoppers Big Brakes disc brakes performance repairs upgrades Australia Custom Car Restorations Corvettes Mustang Ford Holden Plymouth Chev
Impala Chevrolet Dodge charger valiant fj lo-riders hot rods car detailing brakes hop-up customising VT big
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 8th, 2006 at 12:08 AM |
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Yep, I am pretty sure V-Force can supply the EA Falcon-based rear brakes, as can Custom Off Road in Qld. Give them a call
[ Edited on 7-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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Euro_67
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| posted on September 8th, 2006 at 09:58 AM |
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I was hoping to check out your brakes if you picked up the dizzy ?
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 8th, 2006 at 06:59 PM |
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Ohh shite, forgot about that!
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Euro_67
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| posted on September 24th, 2006 at 03:24 PM |
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hows the testing on the brake upgrade going ? any final results ?
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 24th, 2006 at 04:32 PM |
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Been out "thrashing" on the Old Highway today, in fact. After advice/discussion from a few other people who have installed Nissan rear brakes with
Commodore fronts on other comp and rally cars, I decided to install the prop valve in the rear circuit, convinced there would be too much rear bias,
that would need correction...
Bad idea!
As with the Falcon rear/Commodore fronts under the tail-heavy VW, the fronts continue to lock prematurely. So, next weekend, I will once again install
the prop valve in the front brake circuit, to 'pull back' on front line pressure and allow the rear brakes to do a greater share of the work and
reduce the tendency for the fronts to lock.
It's all fun and games!
I am also mucking around with the location of the rear calliper bracket to give the best location for handbrake cable etc.
So yeah, development continues...slowly but surely!
The next plan is to try the Nissan rear discs with standard 1500/Super front discs, upgraded with decent pads, of course. I reckon that will be a
great "budget" upgrade for fast street Beetles!
[ Edited on 24-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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Euro_67
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| posted on September 24th, 2006 at 04:39 PM |
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good to see its developing
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VWCOOL
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| posted on November 3rd, 2006 at 09:44 AM |
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Another update: With one of the engineers involved in all this, I have completed the jig required to re-drill the Nissan calliper mount brackets to
suit VW and I have continued testing the Nissan callipers/discs in tandem with the vented fronts.
However, I once again became concerned about an apparent 'dragging' problem with the rear brakes - after driving without touching the brakes (eg
along a freeway) and coasting to a stop, the rear brakes were obviously quite warm, a situation I first saw with the previously-installed Falcon-based
rear discs last year. With the car jacked up, it's possible to turn the rear wheels by hand but there is some gentle drag. So with some advice from
Steve C, VW54 and some others, I went looking for a possible cause of this heat, beginning with the handbrake adjustment, then some sort of residual
pressure valve in the master cylinder or a collapsed rubber hose that could cause a pressure build-up.
To cut a long day (story) short, I rebuilt my master cylinder and replaced the four flexible hoses in the rear circuit (one to the trailing arm and
one to the calliper, each side) I also had to replace both callipers with rebuilt ones, when a hose snapped off one calliper....
The rear brakes still get warm. I've discussed it some more with a couple of people (particularly Nathan - bat69)and this an operating characteristic
of these callipers (Nissan and Ford) with integral handbrake to reduce pad 'knock-off'.
The adjustable proportioning/bias valve is now installed in the front brake circuit to reduce the tendency of the fronts to lock prematurely, and to
make the rears work harder. I did some fine-tuning of the valve (it's mounted under the car near the MC) during a particularly harsh full-throttle
repeated 100-0 thrash. Unlike my other cars (usually V8 Commodores) over the years fitted with DBA discs and Ultimate pads that worked well from cold,
the ones on my VW seem to like a bit of heat in them.
I went as hard as I could 100-0 until my engine oil temp told me to stop after five or six back-to-back runs. With my tyres clean and almost
lolly-sticky from the straight-line work, I did a couple of hard 'Old Highway' runs (had to cool the engine off a bit first!) just to make sure
everythig was to my liking and there was no tendency to - for instance - lock one front wheel when hooking into a corner.
I am really happy - :thumb the brakes are now superb with nose-dumping ability and good pedal feel and balance; no tendency to lock either end.
I'm happy with all that. So now it's time to test these Nissan rear discs with standard Beetle front discs and twin-pin callipers. You may recall, I
reckon the Nissan rear brakes will be a good 'Stage 1' or 'budget' upgrade for fast street cars, with the vented front discs being like a 'Stage
2'. I've kinda done my testing in reverse, with 'Stage 3' (Vented Falcon/Commodore fronts, big solid rear discs) and now 'Stage 2' (vented
fronts, smaller solid rear discs) all a-okay so far!
[ Edited on 3-11-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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Euro_67
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| posted on November 3rd, 2006 at 01:57 PM |
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Good to see this is still progressing. Will it be at the shootout for a look see ?
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VWCOOL
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| posted on November 3rd, 2006 at 02:22 PM |
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top idea, I'd like to sell some Hoodjax, too but I'll be up at Bathurst for the hillclimb event
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Euro_67
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| posted on November 3rd, 2006 at 07:22 PM |
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Good luck at the hillclimb
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Euro_67
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| posted on June 9th, 2007 at 09:12 AM |
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Glen,
holmart has some VT Commodore disk brake kits for sale. It might offset the cost of the machined hubs required for the right backspacing and pcd for
better wheel choice. They seem cheap for NOS kits.
http://holmart.com.au/online/prod731.htm
http://holmart.com.au/online/prod732.htm
If you really want to stop quick, or an upgrade for your commodore !
http://holmart.com.au/online/prod1520.htm
[ Edited on 8-6-07 by Euro_67 ]
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