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 pfillery
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| posted on December 6th, 2012 at 12:25 PM |
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Stainless exhaust vs mild steel?
Have been told that stainless systems tend not to last more than a few years due to vibration damage (from being rigid) when fitted to a veedub. But
love the idea of a stainless system to avoid rust.
Any opinions to share on this?
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68BUS
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| posted on December 6th, 2012 at 12:35 PM |
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Can ceramic coating be applied to mild steel?
If so that may be a good option for looks and rust.
1966 Aussie 11 Window
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SuperOwen
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| posted on December 6th, 2012 at 12:45 PM |
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There's some cheap stainless systems out there on the market, probably best to avoid those for all the reasons you mentioned and more. You get what
you pay for.
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tar76
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| posted on December 6th, 2012 at 04:14 PM |
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I've got both at the moment and still always like the sound of mild steel, but don't last like the stainless
"Obey your Dreams"!
62 Std beetle.
65 11 wnd Split "The Cross".
6? coming very soon!!!!
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oldtub356
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| posted on December 6th, 2012 at 05:30 PM |
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>"Can ceramic coating be applied to mild steel?"<
Yes, I've had a couple of Lukey mufflers ceramic coated - they beed blast first, which looks like a matt grey finish and then clear ceramic bake
them.
The final finish looks more like a polished aluminium colour than a chrome finish. Make sure that you do all reshaping or welding before the
coating.
Also, when clamping the new ceramic coating, I used that muffler putty as a sealer before tightening. I'm told that the hottest range of silicon
gasket is good??
I also prefer the sound of mild steel over stainless - in the good old days, copper pipes sounded at least 10 mph faster.
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psimitar
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| posted on December 6th, 2012 at 11:36 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 68BUS
Can ceramic coating be applied to mild steel?
If so that may be a good option for looks and rust.
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Don't forget tho that exhausts, especially in drier climates, will rust from the inside out so depending on where you live it may or may not extend
the exhausts life 
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
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tar76
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 06:26 AM |
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These A1 systems look the goods
http://airkewld.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=ilvm_fly_...
"Obey your Dreams"!
62 Std beetle.
65 11 wnd Split "The Cross".
6? coming very soon!!!!
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HappyDaze
A.k.a.: Greg Mackie
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 06:50 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by oldtub356
- in the good old days, copper pipes sounded at least 10 mph faster.
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.....And even faster if highly-polished, preferably with 'Brasso'
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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pfillery
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 08:02 AM |
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Copper looks and sounds awesome! But is illegal now as it emits some gas from the copper when used for exhaust.
Pity
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68AutoBug
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 11:22 AM |
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I believe the main reason some mild steel exhausts rust away fast is that they are made from very poor quality metal..
and some stainless steel is very thin, and there are many different stainless steels too..
so,it all comes down to the quality of the metal..
I remember reading many years ago of a fellow putting a grease nipple in the exhaust and greasing the exhaust every few months to stop the GOLF
muffler from rusting away from the inside.. this wouldn't be good for a catalytic converter.. lol
cheers
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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pfillery
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 12:26 PM |
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I wonder whether using heat proof paints like the pot belly black etc inside the pipes would help? Or have the whole thing plated in something that
will keep the corrosion down to a minimum.
The guy I spoke to about it told me that a lot of folk who bought stainless a few years back are starting to find they are cracking just from stress
and vibration. Probably nopt an issue on a regular exhaust system since the parts are supported on flexible rubber hangers so not rigid like a VW one.
He reckons that the mild steel is the way to go.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 01:01 PM |
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I have had NO probs with stainless systems and have been running them for the last 10 years.
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pfillery
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 01:29 PM |
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So under normal daily usage, how long should one expect a standard set of mild steel exhausts to last? I remember on Dad's 2 litre kombi the exhaust
having to be replaced several times in the 10 years or so we had the car. On the other hand I've seldom if ever had to replace an exhaust on any
other vehicle except when damaged by something, never had one rust out except on vee dubs.
Is there any logical reason why this would be the case?
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AA003
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 04:00 PM |
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Your dad bought cheap exhausts.
I read it on samba, so it must be correct.
Sometimes Volkswagen dealers sell spare parts. Amazing isn't it!
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 matberry
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 04:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pfillery
The guy I spoke to about it told me that a lot of folk who bought stainless a few years back are starting to find they are cracking just from stress
and vibration. Probably nopt an issue on a regular exhaust system since the parts are supported on flexible rubber hangers so not rigid like a VW one.
He reckons that the mild steel is the way to go.
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That's why I like the Vintage Speed design. The stock style log/muffler is strong and well supported unlike a 4-into-1 style,
Stainless has a much higher coefficient of expansion and I've seen the 4-into-1 style grow by more than 1/2", it also is more brittle so if not
designed well will crack and/or hit the body. The slip-joints in a 4-into-1 just leak, so for staino, it's VS all the way for me.
Ceramic coatings are good for any metal, and a good shop will actually coat the pipes inside AND out.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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psimitar
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 10:54 PM |
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maybe people should think of using an exhaust hanger on their fatboy 4-1 mufflers?
I did when my old mild steel one cracked around the muffler pipe entrance. After using the hanger the cheap quiet pack muffler lasted until the
baffles went many years later 
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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psimitar
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 10:58 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 68AutoBug
I believe the main reason some mild steel exhausts rust away fast is that they are made from very poor quality metal..
and some stainless steel is very thin, and there are many different stainless steels too..
so,it all comes down to the quality of the metal..
I remember reading many years ago of a fellow putting a grease nipple in the exhaust and greasing the exhaust every few months to stop the GOLF
muffler from rusting away from the inside.. this wouldn't be good for a catalytic converter.. lol
cheers
LEE
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There are many types of stainless but most these days are either 304 or 316 marine grade. The other stainless varieties are used for specific
engineering applications.
True tho that as aftermarket parts in china aren't under such quality control like say a BMW part is made in China then the quality, and hence mix
ratio, in the stainless can be very poor and even the base steel can be really rather shite 
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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STIDUB
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| posted on December 7th, 2012 at 11:46 PM |
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"stainless" mufflers are generally 409 grade, there is JUST enough chromium & stuff in it to barely be classed as stainless & it will rust
soon after mild steel, just like repro chrome parts do. Be specific & ask for proof that it's full 304/316 grade, will last forever. I may have
it back to front but 304 is industrial & 316 is medical, should know, work with the stuff often enough
Or if you're handy with the welding gear, try making your own! No seriously don't, it's painfully time consuming
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member
STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less |
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tar76
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| posted on December 8th, 2012 at 08:55 AM |
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Was talking to a Engineer at work who makes drum rollers for conveyors and he said, exhaust 316 can be very thin shit. My VS on the kombi is about 12
months old and seems to be hanging in there. Just not real happy on how its staining.
"Obey your Dreams"!
62 Std beetle.
65 11 wnd Split "The Cross".
6? coming very soon!!!!
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RODZ
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| posted on December 8th, 2012 at 09:09 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by tar76 My VS on the kombi is about 12 months old and seems to be hanging in there. Just not real happy on how its staining.
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Mines doing the same and if it wasnt that I had a ratty bus, i would be pissed.....
"If it ain't rubbing,It ain't dubbing!!!!"
1966 Beetle
1969 Low Light Kombi
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matberry
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| posted on December 8th, 2012 at 10:16 AM |
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Guy's, stainless discolours....nothing new, and it is an exhaust system, even hi-temp paint is high in maintenance. If you want show quality for a
vehicle that gets used, your best ceramic coating a stainless system. They run quieter, cooler (externally) and last (probably) indefinately, but
still to stay pretty, they need cleaning regularly.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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tar76
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| posted on December 8th, 2012 at 12:10 PM |
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My last stainless set up discolour'd but not the way my VS has. I like it when stainless gets the heat staining but not the way mine has gone. VS
does tuck nice and is a really good set up for the lowered.
I'm putting a mild steel on the split next (Monza gone) week was thinking about Ceramic coating it but might look a bit to flash for Ratso.
"Obey your Dreams"!
62 Std beetle.
65 11 wnd Split "The Cross".
6? coming very soon!!!!
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matberry
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| posted on December 8th, 2012 at 12:12 PM |
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You can get ceramic in black or even cast iron look grey.......Ring Custom Coatings, Archerfield. Best around, they will do majority of internals too
depending on the system.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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tar76
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| posted on December 8th, 2012 at 12:16 PM |
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Black sounds good...might give them a buzz
"Obey your Dreams"!
62 Std beetle.
65 11 wnd Split "The Cross".
6? coming very soon!!!!
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psimitar
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| posted on December 8th, 2012 at 12:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by STIDUB
"stainless" mufflers are generally 409 grade, there is JUST enough chromium & stuff in it to barely be classed as stainless & it will rust
soon after mild steel, just like repro chrome parts do. Be specific & ask for proof that it's full 304/316 grade, will last forever. I may have
it back to front but 304 is industrial & 316 is medical, should know, work with the stuff often enough
Or if you're handy with the welding gear, try making your own! No seriously don't, it's painfully time consuming
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409? is that crap!!!
304 is industrial with higher tensile strength and 316 is marine/surgical
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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STIDUB
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| posted on December 8th, 2012 at 12:59 PM |
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Some people pay extra for the burnt look!
Pipe should be 1.6mm thick regardless of grade
And yes 409 is cheap(er) crap, can't say I've ever come across any locally
Ps if making your own pipes, midway metals at yatala or bestmuffler online seem to be best prices
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STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
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hulbyw
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| posted on December 8th, 2012 at 08:57 PM |
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A Mate of mine who works for BP reckons fuels nowadays are a lot less corrosive, so probably mild steel is a good option (having said that I have
recently bought a VS SS exhaust from Matt however if the VS design had been available in mild steel, I would have been happy with that) I am currently
running a mild steel 4 into 1 that I bought years ago second hand and it is still ok.I do remember that copper does sound really good though.
Cheers.........Wayne
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on December 8th, 2012 at 09:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by STIDUB
And yes 409 is cheap(er) crap, can't say I've ever come across any locally
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I have just bought Stainless HM Headers.
http://www.hmheaders.com.au/shopcontent.asp?type=Aboutus
They are a leading "local" header company........guess what grade they use ?
There's some Info here re 409 grade for exhaust.
http://genieperformance.com.au/?q=409_Stainless
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nils
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| posted on December 9th, 2012 at 08:24 AM |
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Yeah..... i'm not sure the 409 is the crap stuff either. might have got your wires crossed there STIDUB.
I do agree that the expansion rate of the stainless is the killer (that and cheap material) I'm building a stainless system for the baja because
i'm sick of them rusting away on me all the time and will be putting one of those flexible joints between the 2 halves of the system.
Quit calling rust patina
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modulus
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| posted on December 9th, 2012 at 05:58 PM |
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When 304 and 316 grade stainless steels are held at elevated temperatures for long periods (say 500C for 100 hrs or so), the crystalline structure can
change to a form referred to as "martensitic". This structure is much more brittle than the original and can lead to cracking failures which are
sometimes experienced in e.g. oil refinery column trays which operate under exactly these conditions.
If a 304/316 stainless exhaust is of adequate thickness and properly supported, it would be unlikely to experience such a failure in a reasonable
exhaust lifetime; however, some systems are made of very light materials and (especially on air-cooled VWs) are poorly supported. In such
circumstances, martensitic embrittlement failures would be expected.
I have no experience testing 409 grade SS, so I don't know how that grade would react to long-term elevated temperatures. No direct equivalent
embrittlement process exists for mild carbon steeels, though as noted by other posters it is prone to rusting, which will determine the effective
lifetime of a carbon steel exhaust earlier than anything else.
A decent quality stainless or carbon steel system will give an acceptable lifetime if properly supported, and *that* is the big issue with air-cooled
VWs, of far more importance than the choice between SS and CS.
hth
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