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 Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 11:00 AM |
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Which spark plugs?
Hi Guys
I am checking over my newly purchased 1916 Fuel Injected 1967 bug with the view of finding out as much about the car as possible so that I can get it
running as best I can.
I have taken out the plugs and they are quite black and sooty so I am assuming that it is running rich. The plugs are NGK BPR5 EIX and are 19mm
reach.
I have a few questions:
1. I seem to remember that their are Type 1 heads that can use 13mm reach plugs such as Bosch W7AC and there are Type 1 heads that use 19mm reach
plugs such as the NGK BPR5 EIX. Can somebody explain why the difference and does having heads with the 19mm reach mean that they are better, newer,
bigger or something else?
2. I would like to install new Bosch plugs. Can somebody suggest an appropriate Bosch plug for everyday street driving?
Thanks again for any help you can provide.
Best Regards
Greg
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 Bizarre
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 11:16 AM |
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Generally i believe the 19mm plugs are an improvement to allow more thread to stop stripping
Most of them are 14 x 19 but some big valve heads run 12 x 19
A lot of peoples like NGK over Bosch
Have a read here
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/SearchResults.asp?Search=spark+plugs
and here
http://www.cbperformance.com/SearchResults.asp?searching=Y&sort=7&sea...
W8DC or W8CC is what the number is for Bosch
Futue te ipsum!!!
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modnrod
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 11:26 AM |
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Those NGK "EIX" plugs are Iridium spark plugs, similar to platinum plugs, and so under normal use are good for at least 50000km. In addition,
because the centre electrode is so thin, they usually fire better and cleaner than a normal plug, whether it's Bosch, Ngk or Denso.
You can clean the Iridium plugs easily, place them tip down into 20mm or so of carby clean for a couple of hours. You would be much better off finding
the cause of the sooty plugs, rather than throwing in new cheap ones. If your 1915 is fuel injected, then there is a good chance it needs correct fuel
adjustments made. If an aftermarket EFI system is rich enough to blacken plugs then it is not tuned properly, so book a dyno run. It is worth every
single cent of the $300.
Iridium plugs are worth $25ea. Normal plugs go for $5ea. Both of them are crap if your motor isn't tuned.
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Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 11:55 AM |
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Thanks guys!
I love this forum!
I have just taken out all of the plugs to see what state they are in and the plugs in Cylinders 1 and 2 are black sooty and the plugs in cylinders 3
and 4 are not black and sooty and look ok. I have attached images of the plug tips.
I'll give these a clean, regap and reinstall. What gap should they be set too initially? I checked the gaps of the old plugs and they are all around
.032.
I also think that the plugs are around 10,000kms old so I am thinking it may be a good plan to simply change them as I am planing to get the tuning
checked sometime over the next 2 weeks as I need to get the correct connection hardware for the Atom G4 ECU.
Thanks again guys
Best Regards
Greg
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modnrod
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 12:09 PM |
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10000km on Iridiums they are just getting into the groove, only just run in! They will still fire better than normal brand new plugs. They were a good
investment, I rekn leave them there mate.
Most people say to gap Iridiums at 40th or even 50th, coz they say a more open plug starts a better burn. All I know is that if you want a BIG spark,
even if the ignition system is crap, then 28th - 32th will do it, and the tiny centre electrode of the Iridiums will fire clean anyway, heaps of clean
space around the flame kernel.
The more power/revs/boost/bottle you are using, the more ignition power you need to fire it. The closer the plug gap is, the less ignition power you
need to get a good spark.
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 12:42 PM |
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what ignition system are you running??
If an MSD or something similar the gap will be bigger
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 01:15 PM |
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Hi guys
Thanks for the info modnrod. How long should the NGK's last?
Bizarre, I am not sure as I am still sussing everything out. The car was built by Stenguns (from this forum) Here is the thread for the build http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=64212&page=1 and I am slowly sorting through the complexities of
the setup. I think the EFI system was done by VW Village and the distributor has been removed and the new ignition system is located behind the fan
housing and I can't see what type it is.
Regards
Greg
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 01:36 PM |
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WOW - 1 and 2 are definitely rich
Being a single throttle body - i wonder - if there is a small air leak on 3 and 4 and the mixture has been richened up to compensate
Futue te ipsum!!!
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 02:56 PM |
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NO Need to use Iridium spark plugs in your VW ,
just check the number and just get the normal plug .
just not indium
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 03:02 PM |
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no good checking spark plug colour if your been fluffing around with the car.
Cause if car has a mild cam etc valve over lap will run rich at idle and low speeds
After you put new plugs in .
Need to go for a good fwy drive then while hot pull plugs out and check colour.
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Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 06:06 PM |
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Hi Ian,
Thanks for the info.
I haven't changed anything on the car. I've have only been sussing out what the configuration/specs are of the motor and ancillary hardware such as
the EFI etc. I pulled the plugs out simply to see if they all looked "balanced" and looked the same. The car does not start on the first turn of the
key and takes upto 3 or 4 turns of the key to get started. Once started, it drives well.
I am really thinking that the best approach to take is to pull out the motor, retorque the heads, check the valves and remove and replace all the EFI
parts to ensure that everything is sealed properly and use that as a starting point from which to move forward....what do you reckon?
In your opinion, will the NGK Iridium plugs cause a problem or do you simply think that they are far too expensive for little or no gain?
Also, regarding your comment re a mild cam etc, wouldn't all 4 plugs be black and sooty and not just 1 and 2?
Thanks again for your help.
Best Regards
Greg
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 06:39 PM |
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So there realy no probs, just 2 to 3 turns to start ?
plugs are cheap, put some standard type plugs in and go for a good drive, some problems with hobby cars, is people don't drive them enough for the
engine to get to constant operating temps to give the system a clean burn.
No big deal if it takes 3 turns of the key. it ain't going to give you a sore finger.
After your been driving it , next day try starting it.
do not push throttle down on EFI car.
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Lateral
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 09:08 PM |
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Hi Ian
Each turn of the key represents 5 or 6 cranks of the starter motor. Many years ago I had an 1835 with twin Webers that started on the first turn
everytime. I would think that it is reasonable to expect the same from an EFI motor.
What do you think about the fouling on 1 & 2 but not 3 & 4?
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1303Steve
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 09:17 PM |
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Hi old buddy
It could be uneven fuel pressure on that side of the motor or poorly desinged fuel rails or leaky injectors.
What sort of EFI is it. You should be careful who tunes it.
JEM (Just engine management) are pretty good.
My old yellow with Autronic started instantly.
Steve
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Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 09:42 PM |
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Hi Steve!
I'm in the early stages of figuring out what everything is! The ECU is a G4 Atom and I believe the EFI hardware was built and put together by George
at VW Village in 2009.
My feeling is that too many people have mucked around with the EFI over the past 3 years and it just needs somebody who knows what they are doing to
sort it out.
I also don't want to waste too much time trying to turn a possible "sow's ear into a silk purse" if there are off the shelf EFI or Weber carby
solutions which will be a simple bolt on solution.
I'll give JEM a ring and have a chat. Where are they located ?
Regards
Greg
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1303Steve
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 10:02 PM |
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Hi
The EFI should work OK, never heard of Atom before
Off the shelf EFI will still need tuning, if JEM can handle that ECU that is the best way to go.
They are in Ingleburn.
I run 40 mm Dellortos on my sons bug and run as sweet as.
Steve
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 20th, 2013 at 10:18 PM |
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Steve - the g4 atom is done by Link, who have been around a fair while, I believe they do piggy back computers for the ricers too. It should be a full
sequential system and bloody nice when sorted.
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Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 05:50 AM |
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Hi Doug
Your correct. Here is the link to the G4 information: http://www.linkecu.com/products/engine-management-ecus/g4_atom.
Steve, you'll appreciate the fact that it has been a long time (more than 20 years) siince I had a VW and I am really looking forward to gettin back
into the swing of things. EFI Systems are like listening to somebody speak Spanish....I've got no frigging idea!
That's why I need to find somebody who does...I'll ring JEM today.
Thanks again for all of the great help and information.
Best Regards
Greg
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1303Steve
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:17 AM |
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Hi
I've heard of Link, I think that they a Kiwi made system.
Where it costs is in dyno time, if a system is cumbersome to set up or the tuner is unfamiliar with it cost dollar$
Steve
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:24 AM |
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plugs first as cheap.
check fuel pressure on start up.
maybe some ones moved timing.
if someone's adjusted idle ,could put throttle position sensor out.
some after market EFI could benefit from having idle air valve. for start up
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matberry
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 08:24 AM |
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Don't forget that an air-cooled engine has a few different requirments than a water-cooled one. Mainly the placement of the coolant temperature
sender. Not only does it effect the warm-up mapping, but in a hot restart, placement is very critical so as to try and match the actual
engine/induction temperatures.
Waterpumpers are more temperature 'stable' during this time.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 09:41 AM |
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So if your chasing more then just spark plugs.
I would give Wayne a call at http://www.wpvw.com.au/
If he can not sort out the efi .
he has webbers etc that he can tune to suit.
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 barls
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 09:43 AM |
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why not go for a visit to vwvillage ie the people that put it together in the first place.
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Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 10:47 AM |
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Thanks again guys.
Barls, I am intending to contact VW Village sometime this week. There are a lot of "little" things that need doing to the car and I am slowly
working through the list.
Matt, when to refer to the importance of the placement of the coolant temperature sender, where do you recommend it be placed?
Best Regards
Greg
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matberry
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 11:40 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Lateral
Matt, when to refer to the importance of the placement of the coolant temperature sender, where do you recommend it be placed?
Best Regards
Greg
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I go for the same as the VW factory came up with, in the head boss at the top of the tappet cover area.
And about your longer plugs, it means you have later, thicker heads, 041's (IIRC) or 043's. This is the first 3 digits of the VW part # inside the
tappet cover recess. These heads have bigger ports and valves and more material at the chamber hence the longer plug.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 12:19 PM |
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my temp sender rhs top of head.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 12:30 PM |
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just check some of my spark plugs that I have in my VWs
bosch w8ac
bosch w10ac
ngk dpr7ea-9
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Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 02:32 PM |
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Thanks Guys
I have just gotten my hands on the connection cable for the G4 Atom ECU unit to allow connection to a Windows based PC via a USB port.
I also spoke to George at VW Village and he told me that the EFI system was working well except at start up due to the "end float" issue in the
crank as this negatively effects the trigger and therefore is probably teh cause of my "starting" issues.
It also appears that the Temp sensor is located near # 2 plug.
I think also that the system has had a "cold start injector" fitted whilst it was in QLD. I have attached a photo. George said that the "cold stat
injector" ks not needed as the ECU controls everything at startup.
Anyway, that's the latest!
Best Regards
Greg
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 02:39 PM |
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that thing with red line sorta looks like a idle air valve.should have a pipe comming off the side going into air claener. or it cold be one like on a
falcon
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 21st, 2013 at 02:42 PM |
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you can check throttle once computer pluged in, key on motor not running . should be 0 then push it to the floor and should read 100%
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