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 RAW069
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| posted on March 13th, 2013 at 01:04 PM |
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Engine combo stats vs Expected Horsepower
G’day fellow Veedubbers
I am new to this forum, but by no means new to the VW scene.
The reason for my post is to gain opinion on engine combo vs expected horsepower.
I recently had my brand new engine dyno’d which confirmed my suspicions that the engine was putting out less that expected.
I will list my engine specs below if I can gain feedback on:
- What horsepower I should expect
- What I can do to find any missing ponies and/or improve HP
- What loss through the trans I should be expecting
The engine is in my 69 beetle which I am building for street/weekend use, but want some really decent power while also having good driveability. I am
happy where the power is currently between 2500 and 6000, but just expected more.
Engine is 2165cc
- 78mm CW 4340 Crank
- Lightened Flywheel
- Standard length I Beam Rods
- Engle W120 Cam
- 1:1 ratio rockers on solid shafts
- MOFOCO 050 Heads, 42mm Intake/37.5mm Exhaust, Port and Polish, supposedly 155 cfm @ 0.450 lift, Match ported manifolds **
- 9:1 CR
- 44 Weber IDF’s, 36mm Venturi’s, Air correction: 200, Main jet: 140, Idle: 0.60
- 1 5/8 Inch tuned A1 Sidewinder exhaust
The engine put out 106HP at the wheels @ 4700 and a pretty flat torque between 2500-4500 of approx 120NM at the wheels.
I run 205 60 15’s on the rear and the trans has a heavy duty diff, 3.88 r+p with Welded 3rd & 4th gears.
Usually HP loss is in the vicinity of 15% at the wheels, which means I am seeing 125HP at the flywheel.
Dyno read out attached FYI
** I matched the manifolds myself, as they came standard. These were in the kit from Redline, I have wondered about the restrictive nature of the
manifold further inside about half way up to the carbs. From what I can measure it is more like 32mm diameter inside here – is this something I
should look at also?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
I think it would also be useful if a thread was started which detailed engine combo and HP output.
Cheers in advance
Cam
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1969 Beetle: Lowered, Narrowed, 2165
Fibreglass Buggy: Lifted, Shortened, 1640
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modnrod
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| posted on March 13th, 2013 at 04:45 PM |
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A couple of quick ideas, the really basic stuff, with lots of fudge factors for the real world!  The proper maths to do it is accurate, but takes pages of crap for formulaes.
Head flow at valve lift in CFM@28" (minus 10% fudge factor) = expected and likely HP.
Engine capacity x engine state of tune will give expected and likely torque, multiply/divide by expected HP peak rpm to get power.
Optimised race motors = 80lb/ft/L.
Really good motors = 72lb/ft/L.
Street good motors (eg 4V Honda, etc) = 65lb/ft/L
Older stock "dinosaur" motors (like stock ACVW & 186 Holden) = 60lb/ft/L.
Head flow at 0.435" lift is probably 150cfm, -10% = 135HP.
Street motor 2.165x60 = 130TQs, expected peak I'd guess at 5500. therefore expected HP = 130 x 5500/5250, which = 136HP @ 5500.
Check the manifolds first. That 32mm intake restriction effectively means you've made your carbs into 40IDFs with 32vents. I would aim for 44mm at
the carb end, then match-port the manifold end with a gradual taper all the way down to the head. Then make sure the air filters flow enough air for
the carbs (air filter flow equals Pi x diam x Ht x 6, eg a 6"round x 3" tall filter flows 340cfm........when perfectly new and clean).
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dangerous
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| posted on March 13th, 2013 at 07:31 PM |
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Did you 'tune' it on the dyno, or just check the power level?
Without knowing the pressure drop at which the heads are flowed
with YOUR manifold and carb,
you are just guessing at this point.
Once you have got the tune correct,
Then you can work out where you need to make some gains.
Even if it flowed that 155 figure with the carb and manifold,
it would never make more than about 155FW if that number was at 25" pressure drop.
...well unless the planets align.
Minus your 15% gives you about 132 wheel.
I have seen between 10% and 15%.
Some engines do make as much or even a little more
than the same HP as CFM at 25",
but this is not often with VWs since there are many things difficult to optimise,
and most owners dont use the dyno as a tuning tool.
My guess is tht with manifold and carb it would be a lot less than the 155cfm at 25".
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
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| posted on March 13th, 2013 at 07:34 PM |
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Also perhaps some one familiar with IDF's can chime in,
but that jetting will probably go lean up high.
What does the mixture curve look like?
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Sides
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| posted on March 13th, 2013 at 07:55 PM |
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Jetting wise... a 140 main and 200 air on a 36 vent am pretty sure will be going lean'ish from about 4500 up. Probably not break stuff lean, but
definitely out of the power lean.
I also think your 60 idle jet is covering up the lean main down low... esp if your torque and power dip at 110 equates to 3000-3500 or so rpm... idles
transitioned off before main has really started to kick in.
I'd be thinking 55 idle, and a 145 or possibly even 150 main with that 200 air, but yeah - having an AF curve would be a real big help.
I know from both my IDF days and now the EFI that tiny changes in AF can really hide or unlock power... like getting from 119 to eventually 132rwhp
just by changing jets and vents with a prev incarnation 1915.
Plus restrictive filters (Uni) to flowing filters (K&N) can be 4-5rwhp alone.
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RAW069
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| posted on March 14th, 2013 at 12:25 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by modnrod
A couple of quick ideas, the really basic stuff, with lots of fudge factors for the real world! The proper maths to do it is accurate, but takes pages of crap for formulaes.
Head flow at valve lift in CFM@28" (minus 10% fudge factor) = expected and likely HP.
Engine capacity x engine state of tune will give expected and likely torque, multiply/divide by expected HP peak rpm to get power.
Optimised race motors = 80lb/ft/L.
Really good motors = 72lb/ft/L.
Street good motors (eg 4V Honda, etc) = 65lb/ft/L
Older stock "dinosaur" motors (like stock ACVW & 186 Holden) = 60lb/ft/L.
Head flow at 0.435" lift is probably 150cfm, -10% = 135HP.
Street motor 2.165x60 = 130TQs, expected peak I'd guess at 5500. therefore expected HP = 130 x 5500/5250, which = 136HP @ 5500.
Check the manifolds first. That 32mm intake restriction effectively means you've made your carbs into 40IDFs with 32vents. I would aim for 44mm at
the carb end, then match-port the manifold end with a gradual taper all the way down to the head. Then make sure the air filters flow enough air for
the carbs (air filter flow equals Pi x diam x Ht x 6, eg a 6"round x 3" tall filter flows 340cfm........when perfectly new and clean).
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Interesting response thanks. I will have a look into the manifolds and the potential to clean them out a bit more. It is good to confirm what I have
been thinking with this.
In regard to your reply regarding flows through the head, basically the outcome of what you're saying is that if I want more grunt I need more flow
from the heads. From what I have seen 155 cfm is on the low side for heads with 42mm intakes.
Any recommendations on the sort of flow I should be looking to achieve to get up around the 160+HP while still being drivable and not having to rev
too much?
Cheers
1969 Beetle: Lowered, Narrowed, 2165
Fibreglass Buggy: Lifted, Shortened, 1640
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RAW069
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| posted on March 14th, 2013 at 12:30 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
Did you 'tune' it on the dyno, or just check the power level?
Without knowing the pressure drop at which the heads are flowed
with YOUR manifold and carb,
you are just guessing at this point.
Once you have got the tune correct,
Then you can work out where you need to make some gains.
Even if it flowed that 155 figure with the carb and manifold,
it would never make more than about 155FW if that number was at 25" pressure drop.
...well unless the planets align.
Minus your 15% gives you about 132 wheel.
I have seen between 10% and 15%.
Some engines do make as much or even a little more
than the same HP as CFM at 25",
but this is not often with VWs since there are many things difficult to optimise,
and most owners dont use the dyno as a tuning tool.
My guess is tht with manifold and carb it would be a lot less than the 155cfm at 25".
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Cheers for the advice.
I did have it Dyno tuned, and this resulted in rejetting and setting timing. This was in conjunction with a exhaust gas analyser.
It was running rich previously.
The tuner was a reputable tuner with previous VW experience.
You are also making me think more about looking at the flow through the manifold.
What I am concerned with here is reducing the wall thickness too much.
Does anyone have any recommendations on an aftermarket manifold for the 44 IDF that has more meat or is alread opened up for better flow for the 44
IDF??
'Cheers
1969 Beetle: Lowered, Narrowed, 2165
Fibreglass Buggy: Lifted, Shortened, 1640
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RAW069
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| posted on March 14th, 2013 at 12:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Sides
Jetting wise... a 140 main and 200 air on a 36 vent am pretty sure will be going lean'ish from about 4500 up. Probably not break stuff lean, but
definitely out of the power lean.
I also think your 60 idle jet is covering up the lean main down low... esp if your torque and power dip at 110 equates to 3000-3500 or so rpm... idles
transitioned off before main has really started to kick in.
I'd be thinking 55 idle, and a 145 or possibly even 150 main with that 200 air, but yeah - having an AF curve would be a real big help.
I know from both my IDF days and now the EFI that tiny changes in AF can really hide or unlock power... like getting from 119 to eventually 132rwhp
just by changing jets and vents with a prev incarnation 1915.
Plus restrictive filters (Uni) to flowing filters (K&N) can be 4-5rwhp alone.
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Cheers, more good advice!
I'll have to check I can't remember exactly what it got changed from to the current state, but I think I did have 155 mains in there with the 60
idle - and it ran rich as - everything sooted up - but this could be explained by not enough air flow, am I correct??
132 rwhp is pretty decent from a 1915... what heads/carbs did you have
I do want to get a decent amount more power - basically want to unlock the potential of the 2165. Should I be starting with working from sorting out
the heads/manifold to get more than 155 cfm?? and then look at working on the flow of the carb (bigger vent) and then jetting last?
Cheers
Cam
1969 Beetle: Lowered, Narrowed, 2165
Fibreglass Buggy: Lifted, Shortened, 1640
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modnrod
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| posted on March 14th, 2013 at 01:56 PM |
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Those Mofoco heads are OK for what they are, despite the "web experts" saying otherwise. The casting quality is very good. Don't confuse as-cast
with mild CNC work 42 valve flows with the stuff you would expect from a decent race-blended ports. You could easily spend another $600-800 just to
pick up an extra 15HP over 5000 where you hardly ever spin it up to.
If they flow 155cfm @ .450", they might also flow 165cfm@.500" as they are (and I would expect flow to keep rising at least to 0.550" lift, and you
can access that extra flow with 1.25 rockers on what you have (they do work well on Engle120s).
4700 is a bit low I think for peak HP with those components, but where the maybe-missing 600-900RPM and 20HP is I'm not sure. That's where the fun
starts I guess!
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 matberry
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| posted on March 14th, 2013 at 03:16 PM |
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There certainly a lot to consider, I agree that the intakes are an area for improvement. I have built a few 2165s and around 100hp is common, but with
smaller cams and less compression so certainly something is amiss with your package. What deck height have you set?
Personally, I keep away from 1.25 rockers, but leads to the question of what valve train do you have, rockers, springs and pushrods? Possibly your
running out of lift due to problems there as 100rwhp from a 2165 with 40 IDFs and W100 with type 3 super short manifolds and 8.3:1 CR was a recent
build of mine (with my stage 1 porting on 044 round ports 40 x 35.5).
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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1916baja
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| posted on March 14th, 2013 at 04:17 PM |
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http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=3157
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matberry
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| posted on March 15th, 2013 at 08:45 AM |
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^^ they need work too Mick
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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sander288
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| posted on March 15th, 2013 at 08:53 AM |
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http://www.csp-shop.com/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_main.cgi?func=det&wkid=...
The CSP manifolds would be pretty close; but as Matt says if you really want to optimize an engines combination of parts they all need work
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1916baja
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| posted on March 16th, 2013 at 12:00 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
^^ they need work too Mick
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Yeah,I just pointed them out as they don't require welding... He asked for something with more meat, they have more meat.
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psimitar
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| posted on March 20th, 2013 at 01:54 AM |
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Um, somewhat off topic guys but I was just wondering why I always see dyno graphs in Oz with Kilometer as the x axis? I was always used to RPM scaling
in the UK and so confused how you know at what rpm the motor is producing what power?
Otherwise, interesting thread  I never knew the max HP was that closely
related to head max CFM. Nice baseline to go on when playing with heads and manifolds
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
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Sides
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| posted on March 20th, 2013 at 08:27 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by RAW069
132 rwhp is pretty decent from a 1915... what heads/carbs did you have
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044 Wedgies, tall manifolds, 44 IDF's with 38 vents, FK87 and 11:1 compression. Stacks only.
Same engine but EFI with twin 48 IDF style throttle bodies and sequentional inj took to the number to 142
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
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RAW069
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| posted on March 20th, 2013 at 12:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
There certainly a lot to consider, I agree that the intakes are an area for improvement. I have built a few 2165s and around 100hp is common, but with
smaller cams and less compression so certainly something is amiss with your package. What deck height have you set?
Personally, I keep away from 1.25 rockers, but leads to the question of what valve train do you have, rockers, springs and pushrods? Possibly your
running out of lift due to problems there as 100rwhp from a 2165 with 40 IDFs and W100 with type 3 super short manifolds and 8.3:1 CR was a recent
build of mine (with my stage 1 porting on 044 round ports 40 x 35.5).
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I'm using 1.1 rockers, single HD spings and HD Aluminium Pushrods.
Could the geometry of how the rocker/pushrod length has been set up come into play with reduced lift? How can I check this if it is an issue?
I can adjust the valve etc as per normal.
1969 Beetle: Lowered, Narrowed, 2165
Fibreglass Buggy: Lifted, Shortened, 1640
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RAW069
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| posted on March 20th, 2013 at 12:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Sides
| Quote: | Originally
posted by RAW069
132 rwhp is pretty decent from a 1915... what heads/carbs did you have
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044 Wedgies, tall manifolds, 44 IDF's with 38 vents, FK87 and 11:1 compression. Stacks only.
Same engine but EFI with twin 48 IDF style throttle bodies and sequentional inj took to the number to 142
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Decent! Good work. Gives me a good indication.
1969 Beetle: Lowered, Narrowed, 2165
Fibreglass Buggy: Lifted, Shortened, 1640
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RAW069
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| posted on March 20th, 2013 at 12:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
Um, somewhat off topic guys but I was just wondering why I always see dyno graphs in Oz with Kilometer as the x axis? I was always used to RPM scaling
in the UK and so confused how you know at what rpm the motor is producing what power?
Otherwise, interesting thread I never knew the max HP was that closely
related to head max CFM. Nice baseline to go on when playing with heads and manifolds
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Rpm's can be calculated from gear ratio, ring and pinion ratio and tyre diameter. There are also some easy calculators online.
1969 Beetle: Lowered, Narrowed, 2165
Fibreglass Buggy: Lifted, Shortened, 1640
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matberry
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| posted on March 20th, 2013 at 12:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by RAW069
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
There certainly a lot to consider, I agree that the intakes are an area for improvement. I have built a few 2165s and around 100hp is common, but with
smaller cams and less compression so certainly something is amiss with your package. What deck height have you set?
Personally, I keep away from 1.25 rockers, but leads to the question of what valve train do you have, rockers, springs and pushrods? Possibly your
running out of lift due to problems there as 100rwhp from a 2165 with 40 IDFs and W100 with type 3 super short manifolds and 8.3:1 CR was a recent
build of mine (with my stage 1 porting on 044 round ports 40 x 35.5).
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I'm using 1.1 rockers, single HD spings and HD Aluminium Pushrods.
Could the geometry of how the rocker/pushrod length has been set up come into play with reduced lift? How can I check this if it is an issue?
I can adjust the valve etc as per normal.
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This is where things get tricky. Ask 10 different engine builders and you'll get 10 different answers.
For me, wjth a W120 and your heads I'd definately be using dual springs, also, yes, geometery can certainly be responsible for reduced lift, also
premature valve and guide wear. I've seen over 1mm of valve lift gain by changing/rectifying geometery.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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psimitar
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| posted on March 20th, 2013 at 10:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by RAW069
| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
Um, somewhat off topic guys but I was just wondering why I always see dyno graphs in Oz with Kilometer as the x axis? I was always used to RPM scaling
in the UK and so confused how you know at what rpm the motor is producing what power?
Otherwise, interesting thread I never knew the max HP was that closely
related to head max CFM. Nice baseline to go on when playing with heads and manifolds
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Rpm's can be calculated from gear ratio, ring and pinion ratio and tyre diameter. There are also some easy calculators online.
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Which I get but dunno why the dyno place can't do this on the graph?
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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Sides
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| posted on March 20th, 2013 at 11:43 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
Which I get but dunno why the dyno place can't do this on the graph?
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I guess combination of time, laziness, owner not having ratios handy etc etc.
You're right tho - in a perfect wold dyno graph would show hp vs rpm, ftlb vs rpm and AF vs rpm... then we'd all be comparing apples !!!
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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RAW069
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| posted on March 21st, 2013 at 05:16 PM |
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Ok guys, latest thinking.
I obviously need more air into the engine.
There are a couple of things I could look at with the current setup being:
- More porting on existing manifolds
- Bigger venturis
- More porting on heads - I don't think this is worth the expense, and am probably better off purchasing CNC ported heads that are fit for purpose
rather than $$ on existing - then I can sell my current heads to someone that wants this level of power.
So what I am thinking is, as I was looking at pulling the motor down anyway and performing a level of blue printing and doing all the check that will
instill confidence in the motor, I might invest in / start collecting bits:
- New set of heads, looking at DRD L6 heads
- FK89 cam
- straight cut cam gears
- new pushrods (chromoly)
- 1.4 rockers/solid shafts
- match ported manifolds by DRD with the heads
- bigger venturis on my 44 IDF's - maybe 40mm??
- keep the CR at 9:1 (thoughts??)
What are the thoughts with this setup??
I still want it drivable, but am happy to sacrifice some drivability such as rough idle etc.
And I want my power say from about 2500 - 3000 up to below 7000 rpm.
Cheers
1969 Beetle: Lowered, Narrowed, 2165
Fibreglass Buggy: Lifted, Shortened, 1640
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cnfabo
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| posted on March 21st, 2013 at 06:34 PM |
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thats a damn big cam, you wont need that....is this a street engine, occasional blast at the drags??
cheers fabo
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hellbugged
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48's and straight cuts
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| posted on March 21st, 2013 at 06:41 PM |
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Did you see this...?
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=25222&page=1
I think your doing fairly well with that cam in there
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cnfabo
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on March 21st, 2013 at 07:34 PM |
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I think you are right damp, nothing wrong with 106hp
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Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
Veteran Volks Folk
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| posted on March 21st, 2013 at 07:58 PM |
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Umm... W120 with 1.1's to an FK89 with 1.4's is a pretty damn big jump... you realize that's like an extra .150 in overall lift ???
Wouldn't come onto power till fair bit higher than your 2500-3000 I'd think too...
I'd be looking at both the manifolds and tune first, especially if engine is "brand new" as you said in original post.
In all seriousness, how does the car drive as is... is it spot on everywhere, good temps, economy etc... or is it becoming more about the number ?
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RAW069
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| posted on March 26th, 2013 at 05:28 PM |
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That is a great thread, cheers. Good benchmark and good food for thought - Cheers
1969 Beetle: Lowered, Narrowed, 2165
Fibreglass Buggy: Lifted, Shortened, 1640
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RAW069
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| posted on March 26th, 2013 at 05:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Sides
Umm... W120 with 1.1's to an FK89 with 1.4's is a pretty damn big jump... you realize that's like an extra .150 in overall lift ???
Wouldn't come onto power till fair bit higher than your 2500-3000 I'd think too...
I'd be looking at both the manifolds and tune first, especially if engine is "brand new" as you said in original post.
In all seriousness, how does the car drive as is... is it spot on everywhere, good temps, economy etc... or is it becoming more about the number ?
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Thanks for the feedback - I guess this is why I posted and sought opinion in the first place.
Why does everyone that wants more power want more power??
The other thing with the engine is that I am not 100% confident with the build quality. It has a deep knocking that seems to be half the rev, so I
think it has something to do with the valve train/cam??? As well as an occasional higher pitch knocking coming from the right head size, more like a
valve rotating/rocker noise. It is that it is intermintent that concerns me.
I have brought this up with the engine builder who says it doesn't sound like an issue and to just drive it and enjoy it. The thing is, I have never
had an engine make these noises including those smaller engines that I have built.
I will not purchase a complete engine from o/seas again, although I knew and accepted the risk because when I did my sums I could not even import the
parts to build a motor for the same as the complete engine!
So to be confident I want to pull the motor down and perform a level of blueprint etc. And then I thought well if I am in there anyway, what could I
look at changing for some more grunt??
Perhaps the FK89 does sound a bit big....?
I only drive this on weekends, and it is a build in progress. once I have mechanicals in order I will strip the car for a full bare metal job.
Given this info, what should I be considering???
I appreciate all your feedback so far, very thought provoking and exactly what I was after!
1969 Beetle: Lowered, Narrowed, 2165
Fibreglass Buggy: Lifted, Shortened, 1640
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Super1302
Officially Full-On Dubber
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| posted on March 26th, 2013 at 06:50 PM |
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I had my 2276 on the dyno and with a jet change and went from 75 atw to 105 atw on a slipping clutch, my tq was 178ft.lb with an oil leak fix who
knows, but jetting is essential. At the moment I run a fk10 and is a great cam for the street if you are interested to know.
Hope you get some good headway.
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