| [ Total Views: 2954 | Total Replies: 48 | Thread Id: 106013 ] |
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 chokeau
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| posted on May 11th, 2014 at 05:43 PM |
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Big brakes
Hey guys
Does anyone know of commodore disc brake conversion for IRS pan or any other big rotor conversion.
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Smiley
A.k.a.: Daniel Stephens
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| posted on May 11th, 2014 at 05:55 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by chokeau
Hey guys
Does anyone know of commodore disc brake conversion for IRS pan or any other big rotor conversion.
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Yeah sure.
Just have a read of my thread, I have them on my Baja.
Page 33 about halfway down.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=33
Smiley 
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 Bizarre
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| posted on May 11th, 2014 at 06:19 PM |
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You talking front or back?
Ford brakes work better for the rear
But the question is why?
A lot of work, and unless BIG horse power is there, is it really needed??
Futue te ipsum!!!
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vlad01
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| posted on May 11th, 2014 at 06:33 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Smiley
| Quote: | Originally
posted by chokeau
Hey guys
Does anyone know of commodore disc brake conversion for IRS pan or any other big rotor conversion.
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Yeah sure.
Just have a read of my thread, I have them on my Baja.
Page 33 about halfway down.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=33
Smiley
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wow! I been playing with the exact same setup few months ago, but didn't pursue it all the way since I got news of bolt on suby rear conversion is
close to being or might be already available? And thats with proper billet hubs, not soft VW ones.
Anyway didn't know anyone else tried this before. Way cool to see it works  I would much prefer these over the skyline calipers as they are so obsolete. I got piles of commodore brake parts, rebuild calipers
for them often as I use them on all my cars including the VW.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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vlad01
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| posted on May 11th, 2014 at 06:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bizarre
You talking front or back?
Ford brakes work better for the rear
But the question is why?
A lot of work, and unless BIG horse power is there, is it really needed??
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well the stock brakes suck, so why not?
I personally can not live without big brakes, even on stock cars. They are literally a life saver.
I think the ford ones have slightly bigger piston? so more braking effort. but they aren't very reliable compared to the commodore caliper. I lost
count how many times I had those ford caliper stuff up. I think something like 100% failure rate with the handbrake mechanism for my family lol.
rebuild them they are ok, not sure for how long, but less that 15 years from what I have seen.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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Camo
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| posted on May 11th, 2014 at 08:06 PM |
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Hi Smiley,
and thanks for bringing that link of yours back up, has given me another possible option in the future for better brakes.
In your photo below, can you please tell me what hub you used and rotor. Is it one of 'Shermans' rear hubs with a VN Commodore rotor.
I will have to go through the rest of your link now and see if your front brake modification is there also
Thanks, Kevin
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Smiley
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Smiley
A.k.a.: Daniel Stephens
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| posted on May 11th, 2014 at 10:07 PM |
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Hey Kev.
Happy to help out mate. If you (or anyone for the matter) have any more questions feel free to ask.
The hubs are from John Sherman. They are just blank Type 3 hubs that have been drilled for the Commodore Stud pattern. You also have to machine the
outside diameter down slightly for them to fit inside the Commodore disc. And yes, it's just a standard VN rear Commodore disc.
If you like this then you should see the upgrade I'm cooking up at the moment. I'm planning to fit the Commodore front calipers onto the back now as
well, to give me a more neutral braking bias, due to the Baja having a heavy ass!
As for the front brakes they are also Commodore, this time front rotors and calipers. It was a very easy mod with the Country Buggy front spindles
I'm running, as the stub actually measures in at exactly the same dimentions as the Commodore one. And so, I'm running Commodore wheel bearings and
seals on the front. Makes them cheap and easy to replace when I need to!
These spindles are larger than the stock bug Link Pin or Ball Joint ones, so you might have to measure it up and find the right bearings to adapt it
to fit.
I would highly recommend the rear brakes to anybody. They work fantastic! And because the pads and shoes are from the most common car in the country
they are cheap and widely availible everywhere.
Smiley
Smiley
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vlad01
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| posted on May 11th, 2014 at 10:46 PM |
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Thats really cool what you did there Smiley. The commys have really good brakes from late VP onward to VS with the same setup and no ABS oh and V8,
forgot about the v8 brakes as I forget there is a v8 versions of these cars lol
Given that you got entire commodore front brake setup, that might give you head room to upgrade to VT-VY twin pot setup using conversion hubs readily
available off the shelf.
Are you using VN standard front setup or late VP/v8 VN/VP brakes?
got any pics of the front setup?
oh and one other thing, these brakes with QFM A1RM pads are ace! makes your passengers sick every time without fail 
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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Smiley
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| posted on May 11th, 2014 at 11:49 PM |
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I'm running the V8 VN front brakes. They have the finned cailpers and 300mm rotors instead of 270mm like the V6s.
I have found that these brakes are also on the VN Toyota Lexcens, they put the good stuff on before Holden did!
I thought about upgrading to the VT setup, but that would require a heap of extra work, probably having to fit the master cylinder from the VT and
boost it too. And I'm perfectly happy with the front brakes, they actually work too well, hence me chasing more bias towards the rear.
My plan is to fit the front calipers to the rear and then play with different pads to tweak the bias more if required, eg hard pads up front and soft
ones out back to give some more rear bias if required.
Pictures of the front setup are on page 29 of my build.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=29
Smiley
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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psimitar
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| posted on May 12th, 2014 at 05:34 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
well the stock brakes suck, so why not?
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So does Commodore stuff :P 
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 12th, 2014 at 10:02 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
well the stock brakes suck, so why not?
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So does Commodore stuff :P
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vlad01
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| posted on May 14th, 2014 at 11:51 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Smiley
I'm running the V8 VN front brakes. They have the finned cailpers and 300mm rotors instead of 270mm like the V6s.
I have found that these brakes are also on the VN Toyota Lexcens, they put the good stuff on before Holden did!
I thought about upgrading to the VT setup, but that would require a heap of extra work, probably having to fit the master cylinder from the VT and
boost it too. And I'm perfectly happy with the front brakes, they actually work too well, hence me chasing more bias towards the rear.
My plan is to fit the front calipers to the rear and then play with different pads to tweak the bias more if required, eg hard pads up front and soft
ones out back to give some more rear bias if required.
Pictures of the front setup are on page 29 of my build.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=29
Smiley
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The V6 had the bigger brakes too, but from oct 92 onward, Lexen was build in the holden factory, ordered by Toyota as a re-badge, so holden put those
bigger brakes on I guess as Lexen was suppose to be luxury model?  oh
and its 290mm  VR-VS is smaller at 289mm and the VT upgrade is
296mm. 300mm might be VE brakes?
The VL turbo also used those brakes so they go back to the 80s for availability.
Also if anyone else wanted to use these brakes, make sure that aren't ABS version, they are much smaller than the brakes used here, calipers too.
No need for extra work on VT setup, just use VL-VS 1" MC and if you are using a booster, grab the VR-VS VH512 booster. its same dual diaphragm as the
VT + but same physical design as the earlier VL -VP booster, bolts right in!
The calipers are bolt on as well as the conversions hubs.
I see all these dumb asses in the holden scene making nasty dangerous home brewed VT booster conversions for the earlier models, why?when there is one
that bolts right in already. just check for the part number as said VH512 its the PRB part number.
As for fitting front caliper to the back, not sure that is a good idea. under hard braking in a rear engine vehicle, the weight transfers to the front
but is more evenly distributed than a front engine car but still front biased. In any circumstance you would not want to have more braking at the rear
than the front, if your rear locks before the front, ass end can swing around unexpectedly just like a go kart when you slam the brakes.
I am not entirely sure, but it looks like the PRB MC used on the holden have a secondary larger cylinder, which decreases brake effort at the rear
from my understanding. Don't quote me on that, I never pulled one apart, never had to. never had any issues with holden brakes ever in the hydraulic
system.
what MC are you using? perhaps a vw BUS MC will suit best. That is what I have on my type 3 with holden calipers too.
simple solution might be to add a propositioning valve to the system to limit the front a little.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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vlad01
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| posted on May 14th, 2014 at 11:52 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
well the stock brakes suck, so why not?
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So does Commodore stuff :P
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far more reliable than vw though :P
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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bajachris88
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| posted on May 14th, 2014 at 12:13 PM |
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Front calipers in the rear is actually a great idea particularly for a baja like smiley's or myself!
With a baja, you got BIG rotating mass in the rear (33's or 31's for instance) and the front weights next to nil which makes it easy to lock up the
front brakes so you don't want anything 'hectic' at the front end regardless of the theory of weight transfer.
I personally need to upgrade the rear type 3 brakes. During hard braking the fronts lock up (stock discs) while rear still rotates about, to the point
you got to go hard on the brake to stop those rear drums quickly while the front squeels (say on slippery gravel). I have to ensure i don't want to
turn when i'm at this state of 'ploughing' . A super performing
disc setup on the rear willl balance the brake bias such that the rear can kick in harder before any chance of wheel lock up at the front, slowing
down those big heavy 31's at the back.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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psimitar
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 06:17 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
well the stock brakes suck, so why not?
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So does Commodore stuff :P
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far more reliable than vw though :P
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I'd much rather use VW than GM parts but each to their own.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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HappyDaze
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 07:03 AM |
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And I'd rather use these 356 Porsche drums than any of the above.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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 vw54
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 07:11 AM |
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Rear Porsche nice cooling fins
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Governor
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 07:31 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
And I'd rather use these 356 Porsche drums than any of the above.
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Yes these are the best brakes for a beetle, expensive but the best usually is
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psimitar
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 08:14 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
And I'd rather use these 356 Porsche drums than any of the above.
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Cool Be interesting to test these against, say, the CSP vented disc kit
or Airkewld Wilwood kit. Volksworld did a test of std drums and disc fronts against performance stuff but never a 356 Drum. Would be interesting
reading
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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HappyDaze
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 08:23 AM |
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Saturday, 24th May will be the perfect oportunity for such a test. Nationals Supersprints at Wakefield Park.
No.8 Beetle, withe 356 drums F & R, will be there.....so bring all the disk-braked Beetles along for the "Big Test"
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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psimitar
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 08:58 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
Saturday, 24th May will be the perfect oportunity for such a test. Nationals Supersprints at Wakefield Park.
No.8 Beetle, withe 356 drums F & R, will be there.....so bring all the disk-braked Beetles along for the "Big Test"
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Well I kinda meant more quantifiable tests as your driving is probably better than most of the competition
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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vlad01
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 10:21 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
Saturday, 24th May will be the perfect oportunity for such a test. Nationals Supersprints at Wakefield Park.
No.8 Beetle, withe 356 drums F & R, will be there.....so bring all the disk-braked Beetles along for the "Big Test"
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Well I kinda meant more quantifiable tests as your driving is probably better than most of the competition
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10 consecutive 100-0 stop tests side by side would be a good test.
what are those 356 brakes like for fade?
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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HappyDaze
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 12:27 PM |
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Fade has not shown to be a problem.
At Wakefield Park, after 10 laps [5 BIG brake applications per lap] there is still plenty of 'pedal'.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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vlad01
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 02:36 PM |
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well I suppose there shouldn't be much fade on a bug with bigger brakes, not much weight to stop.
stock brakes on a type 3 certainly fade fast. heavy bastard with pissy little brakes lol.
reminds me of the time my squareback's front pads caught on fire haha, burnt off all the paint on the center of the rims too. 
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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psimitar
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 10:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
Saturday, 24th May will be the perfect oportunity for such a test. Nationals Supersprints at Wakefield Park.
No.8 Beetle, withe 356 drums F & R, will be there.....so bring all the disk-braked Beetles along for the "Big Test"
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Well I kinda meant more quantifiable tests as your driving is probably better than most of the competition
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10 consecutive 100-0 stop tests side by side would be a good test.
what are those 356 brakes like for fade?
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Exactly
Similar to Volksworld mags testing.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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psimitar
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| posted on May 15th, 2014 at 10:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
well I suppose there shouldn't be much fade on a bug with bigger brakes, not much weight to stop.
stock brakes on a type 3 certainly fade fast. heavy bastard with pissy little brakes lol.
reminds me of the time my squareback's front pads caught on fire haha, burnt off all the paint on the center of the rims too.
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Tis why T3 rears on a bug is a good upgrade
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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vwo60
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| posted on May 16th, 2014 at 10:28 AM |
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The bigest thing would be the cost and avilability of the porsche drum brakes, they are not for mere mortals
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vlad01
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| posted on May 16th, 2014 at 12:39 PM |
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I still can't imagine 356 brakes being as good as disks used to stop a 1400kg v8 powered car.
I would go for these disk brakes any day, coz I know how well they work in the 1400kg they come from and they work like a brick wall in a vw.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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vlad01
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| posted on May 16th, 2014 at 12:43 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by psimitar
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
well I suppose there shouldn't be much fade on a bug with bigger brakes, not much weight to stop.
stock brakes on a type 3 certainly fade fast. heavy bastard with pissy little brakes lol.
reminds me of the time my squareback's front pads caught on fire haha, burnt off all the paint on the center of the rims too.
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Tis why T3 rears on a bug is a good upgrade
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yeah I hear about this, I sold a few type 3 brakes to bug owners.
I am not sure how much better it would be, I always found upgrading the front makes nearly all of the braking performance increase, while the back is
marginally noticeable when upgraded. This is on type 3 and other cars besides vw that I upgraded brakes on.
I never owned a bug so I can't say.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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HappyDaze
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| posted on May 16th, 2014 at 01:07 PM |
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Chokeau, sorry if I've caused this to drift off-topic. 356 brakes are 11" [280mm] diameter, and I consider them "Big brakes".....it was not my
intention to start a 'drum v disc' debate.
The reasons I use 356 drums are:- They are light, strong, smooth, and [when I bought mine] fairly cheap. They stop well - with good linings - and I
like the look of them.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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