| [ Total Views: 853 | Total Replies: 33 | Thread Id: 19286 ] |
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 kombi69
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| posted on February 20th, 2004 at 04:31 PM |
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Time for Critical Thinking
Time for Critical Thinking
In Perth (and other parts of West Australia) the local electricity utility, Western Power, is making an offer to consumers to "switch to green
energy, from as little as 50c extra per week". This initiative has been labelled (and trademarked, no less) "Green Power" and comes
Government approved. This would be the same government utility which this week was unable to meet the city's power requirements. The same
government utility which was, in the lead up to Christmas, encouraging people to display ever more elaborate and energy consuming lights with a prize
incentive.
Apparently you choose your green energy, either Natural Power, electricity that is generated from 100% renewable resources or Earth Friendly,
electricity that is greenhouse gas neutral.
At present our house has one line running from the main electricity supply line. How will the green energy that Western Power charges extra for be
supplied separated from the normal nasty energy?
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fatboy
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| posted on February 20th, 2004 at 04:40 PM |
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Isn't it obvious it will be delivered to your house in a big truck and pour into tanks at the back of your house - much like water.
Just like water if your house gets struck by lightning it will top the tank up
:P
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BiX
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| posted on February 20th, 2004 at 04:46 PM |
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Its a very good and worthy idea, and in the future all energy produced will need to be developed from Green sources. I think extra cost is more of a
levy to have more green energy systems built and run.
now don't get me started on ESD and such I will bore you way to much!!!!!! |
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fatboy
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| posted on February 20th, 2004 at 04:58 PM |
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I dont think anyone is knocking the concept.
I think the question was
If I sign up today what makes the elctricity coming out of my wall any greener than it was yesterday as it will be using the same infrastructure
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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fatboy
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| posted on February 20th, 2004 at 04:59 PM |
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I would be worried that it would all be a load of bollocks.
As in the current affair prog this week that exposed the recycled rubbish myth (it all went to the same place as regular rubbish)
[Edited on 20-2-2004 by fatboy]
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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BiX
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| posted on February 20th, 2004 at 05:05 PM |
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What ur paying for is the higher cost of the green electricity and also probably helping to invest in infustructure for green power. If you really
want to do it properly, it is possible to supply all power needed for a home form solar cells. |
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BiX
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| posted on February 20th, 2004 at 05:13 PM |
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earth'schoice green energy
ENERGEX has just made it easier and more affordable for all customers to improve the health of the environment through a new, tailored
earth'schoice program.
Currently, 90 percent of electricity in Australia comes from coal-fired power, mostly because green energy is much more expensive to produce. As
demand for green energy grows, more alternative energy generators will be developed making it more accessible and affordable for all.
With your help, ENERGEX can facilitate the development of more renewable energy generators.
That's why we've changed the way residential and business customers can contribute to earth'schoice. Now you can choose how much
you'd like to contribute per energy bill, according to set levels. |
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 helbus
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| posted on February 20th, 2004 at 08:54 PM |
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Man at the cost of electricity, we just go nuts on trying not to use too much.
We watch TV through the window of Harvey Norman.
We keep the blind open to read by the street light.
We only buy fresh food and eat it once a month. (fridge is on for 3 days only)
We wash our clothes once every two months. (our smalls once a week)
We poo at work to save our flush water. I pee on the lemon tree out back.
We have electric hot water, so I turn the thermostat down and we shower once a fortnight - together (I like that bit)
Our water and electricity bills are less than half now. 
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 Bizarre
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 10:49 AM |
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They have a similar thing here in Sydney.
I think dirty energy is 10c / kWhr and 100% green is 13c. There are varying levels in between.
I am one of the few that i have talked too that has signed up for 100%.
Why - just because i think it is better.
Personally i dont think there should be a choice. The government should FORCE energy providers to produce more wind/solar/hydro/renewable energy and
charge more for people wanting to use fosil.
I honestly believe that energy is too cheap here and we abuse the privilage. Industry is even worse. I know of one case where the factory signed a
deal at 3.5c for 10 yrs - why is anyone going to build an energy efficient factory when you can buy power that cheap???
As for the actual electrons coming out of your power point - nah there the same. But yes the utility is producing grenn energy and the more consumers
demand a clean enviroment the more they will provide it.
Sign up and feel better for the world.
People will laugh at you but you will cry at them for not caring.
It is just wrong when there is so many alternative answers and we keep on buying the cheap answer
TTFN
Futue te ipsum!!!
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fatboy
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 10:58 AM |
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"With your help, ENERGEX can facilitate the development of more renewable energy generators."
So your not paying extra to use green power, your paying extra to fund the development of power which may one day be greener - I remember the days
when companys financed their R&D directly what a great idea to encourage customers to pay extra for it.
Still if it makes you feel better
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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Bizarre
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 11:10 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fatboy
Still if it makes you feel better
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and if the others can sleep easily knowing they are encouraging a depleting energy source.
Have a look at what Europe is paying for power.
But then again - maybe everyone else is right.
Why should single people care???
Futue te ipsum!!!
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fatboy
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 11:38 AM |
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Your not encouraging anything
The only goal companies have is seperating you from your hard earned $$$
The energy source is depleting which means they have to do the research if they wish to say in business.
Charging you extra is just another way improving their bottom line.
Most people (including me) care about the environment but the fight has only been taken up in recent years by companies as they have realised how
marketable the concept is.
The first post here is an excellent example of how this is deceiving ppl into believing they are actually purchasing green power when in fact they are
not.
Another good example is how we should not be driving around in old cars because of polution and should have newer nore energy efficient cars. When the
simple fact is that you could drive the oldest smokiest (sp?) holden/ford/whatever for a couple of hundred years before you create the same amount of
polution as MANUFACTURING a brand new energy efficient vehicle.
but of course drivning an old car doesn't continue the consuming cycle that puts $$$ into the big manufacturers pockets
so I repeat "if it makes you feel better"
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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kombi69
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 12:31 PM |
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...and why councils, who on the surface encourage green practices, then have their security brown shirts drive around in 6 cylinder Holdens/Fords.
They have no exemptions to speed, run liughts etc to chase baddies, so why the 6 cylinders? Resale. They could just as easliy have a presence and hand
out noisy dog infringements on mopeds. Time for critical thinking.
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Robo
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 01:27 PM |
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I just wonder what the coal mining companys have to say about all this, I would imagine they would not be too happy.
I can remember a few years back over in holland or some other euro country, an experimental wind powered electricity generator farm, witch was found
to be very successful, was sold to the highest bidder, a mining company, witch demolished it as quickly as they could. Talk about getting rid of the
competition.
I cant understand why if governments are serious about ozone depletion, why they dont give incentives for builders & new home owners to be more
self sufficient in power supply and consumption, Have a look at most display homes and brochures, how many of them have solar manual or wind generated
power & storage options, basicly NIL! wouldn't it be nice to have a $zero power bill!
Then again I spose you only have to look at the timber industry in Tazmania and the Ethanol import business to see how governments behave!
Rob...
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Bizarre
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 03:59 PM |
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I have to disagree with you there Fatboy
My mate at work as activley involved in wind generation. He is taking on the big boys personally and starting 2 wind farms. If want figures i will
find what MWatt it is but it is in the "big boy league" He is at the "build a test station" stage on both sites.
We/he are all eagerly awaiting the M-RET (or whatever) report where they are going (read fed gov) set the level of green energy the power people HAVE
to support.
There is all sorts of crap flying about why we should just burn more coal and there is the other side.
I agree about drivng ol cars - but i also have doubts about how much energy is produced in producing an energy efficient car??
Green energy IS HERE. It is up to the little people to say "dont sell me the dirty stuff, i want unleaded"
It is up to the goverment to make sure the energy companies do the right thing and promote & offer green supplies and DISCOURAGE the easy dirty
way of producing energy.
Australia would have to be (compared to Europe) one of the most backward companies when it comes to energy useage.
In air coditioning in comercial the easiest way to get comfort control is to cool to the lowest temp and rehaet to the desired zones.
The alternative is to have a properly engineered multi zoned central plant.
And why????
cause electricity is cheap and developers dont give a stuff.
Look at the houses we build. Any energy efficiency there - no!
Cause it is easy (read cheap) to put in heating or air conditioning.
Australians just dont realise how cheap we are buying electricity.
There are several places in europe where they are paying close to the $1 per kw hr. We are paying between 10-20% of that.
Anyway - to each ther own beliefs and what difference they believe they are making
TTFN
[Edited on 21-2-2004 by blue74l]
Futue te ipsum!!!
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fatboy
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 05:00 PM |
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The only way we will have real green power is the day after the depleting resources run out and it is the only way the "big boys" can make
money, companies are about minimum cost and maximum profit that means using the existing resources for which they are already tooled up and equiped
until it has run out
Your mate will never get to become more than a token gesture. (unless he can afford to independantly run his own infrastructure)
if you think anything else then your really kidding yourself .
As for the environmental cost of producing the new cars just think of the factories waste products for every factory making every component it soon
adds up.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be environmentally aware (the opposite in fact)all I am saying is that you should also be aware that
governments and big business will say whatever it takes to get get your vote or $$$ whilst actually doing whatever they want.
"We/he are all eagerly awaiting the M-RET (or whatever) report where they are going (read fed gov) set the level of green energy the power people
HAVE to support."
Yes this is the way to go and the way ppl who are concerned should be heading as this will eventully help.
But the way not to go is NOT to give the power company extra funds they already make huge profits and are simply exploiting ppl who care
[Edited on 21-2-2004 by fatboy]
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fatboy
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 05:02 PM |
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kombi69
We thinking enough for ya ?
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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Bizarre
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 05:17 PM |
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"Your mate will never get to become more than a token gesture. (unless he can afford to independantly run his own infrastructure) "
This is where this is really interesting.
At the moment it is staking claims on areas that are windy.
At the moment the big boys really have no idea and are just hotch potching. With engineering small people ARE outsmarting the big guys.
It is not like coal where $$$are just poured in and the coal dug out. This is a slow process of negoating with farmers, building test stations,
collecting data more tests, more data and finally the farm.
As more information is collected the more funds become available from "others" - but it is the person who controlls the lease who controlls
the deal.
"But the way not to go is NOT to give the power company extra funds they already make huge profits and are simply exploiting ppl who care
"
It is a catch 22. It is also not the way to say to the power companies - keep on selling me you old ways until they run out and then hold me over a
barrel for the new stuff.
We NEED to force them now.
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Bizarre
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 05:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fatboy
kombi69
We thinking enough for ya ?
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yep - this has not one un-noticed.
Glad others are thinking about it. :thumb
Futue te ipsum!!!
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fatboy
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 05:33 PM |
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Do you think if every houshold and every business is WA subscribe to the higher rate that the power companies will turn off their furnaces ?
I dont think so, I think they will say "Thanks we'll do our research with all this lovely dosh" and what do you know as soon as it
becomes too expensive to coal mine will be about the time they finish their research.
keep your money in your pocket or better still give it to an organisation or charity you admire where you feel it will be used for something really
useful instead of for false promises
I simply dont belive that paying the extra fee will bring green power a single day sooner than if you didn't
"Still if it makes you feel better"
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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Bizarre
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 05:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fatboy
Do you think if every houshold and every business is WA subscribe to the higher rate that the power companies will turn off their furnaces ?
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I would certainly hope there were riots in the streets if they didnt!
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Robo
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 05:39 PM |
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If you want to know what governments do with the proceeds from levy's just ask the Ansett workers!
Rob..
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Member of DMLRK.....Die Mittler Lebuns Resto Komeradschaft
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kombi69
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 05:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fatboy
kombi69
We thinking enough for ya ?
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Yes, we are thinking, there aren't enough of we though.
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kombi69
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 05:45 PM |
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Perth has had 3 days this week over the old century mark. How difficult would it be to supply pre heated hot water to houses, just run copper piping
through a grid under all the blacktop. From this main supply to the house HWS, less energy of any type used in the house to bring the water up to
temp.
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fatboy
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 06:03 PM |
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"If you want to know what governments do with the proceeds from levy's just ask the Ansett workers!
Rob.."
what does that have to do with this ?(power companies charging extra to fund research into green power whilst giving ppl the impression they are
actually recieving green power by paying extra)
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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Bizarre
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 06:06 PM |
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It is not research
At present wind power does cost more.
Enery companies are producing green power.
I just want them to produce more
Futue te ipsum!!!
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fatboy
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| posted on February 21st, 2004 at 06:18 PM |
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from bix post in which he quotes energex
"With your help, ENERGEX can facilitate the development of more renewable energy generators"
"I just want them to produce more"
We all do and they will as soon as they have used up all the cheap coal it isn't that wind powered electricity is more expansive it's that
coal powered electricity is cheaper so MAKES MORE PROFIT and that is all they care about.
As coal runs out it will become more expensive to mine and at that time wind power will seem really cheap.
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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BiX
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| posted on February 22nd, 2004 at 01:12 PM |
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Arn't we looking at this backwards? Why do we need power to start with? If you follow the cleaner production principals. we should be aiming to
eliminate the demand for electricity and Petrol, and any power that is required should be supplied fom green sources.
It is possible, just that ppl have to wake up the fact that at present green energy and ESD of buildings has higher capital costs and therefore, when
a home buyer looks at a house and says "Y should I spend 20K extra" they just why bother and don't want ESD inclusions. |
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blutopless2
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| posted on February 22nd, 2004 at 01:35 PM |
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my $0.05.....
do people really believe that they have not known about the depletion of current resources for quite some time and have always been researching new
ways to produce electricity???? there are alternate ways to produce electricity and conveniently they are all more expensive than the current
method... and why??? because they want you to use electricity the way we are until the resource runs out... then they will change the way they produce
it....
I have seen the same with cars over the years.... don' t you think its a little suspicious that EVERY year the cars are getting just that little
bit more efficient and less emissions are released??? whats in the R&D labs today will not be out in general use for many years to come. As some
have pointed out its the money factor.... look at the service we get for our money... (speaking for victorians here) has anyone noticed the number of
power dips and blackouts we have had since the company went private??? and oh yeah like the possum and crow population suddenly got dumber and dont
know what substations are!!!
Well i could rant and rave for hours on all this but just thought i'd throw in my bit.
see.... air and water do mix 
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| posted on February 22nd, 2004 at 02:05 PM |
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I bet the bigwigs coming up with all of these wonderful solutions to the energy crisis are happily sitting in thier cosy Govt offices. Working thier
way up the ladder from dept to dept (one year office of toenail length monitoring, the next yr, head of the pointless statistics collectors.. the
following yr head of the green energy department). This encompases not only govt bigwigs, but private morons too!lol
No doubt the office would be climate controlled (inefficent energy guzzling air con of course), well lit (lighting via Halogen lamps, and fluros on a
24hr burn cycle,, the health and safety mob down the corridor requires all unused rooms/floors/buildings etc, be well lit, just in case the litigation
mob round the corner gets wind of some poor soul tripping and spraining a toe,,that could cost at least $200 000 for rehab and stress ).
When trying to offer a solution to any of these bodies, (such as an energy efficient lighting system which can save 50% of lighting and %20 air con),
the little people find themselves thrown into a neverending circle of new and exciting govt depts one never even knew existed!!
Basically the system needs an overhaul, if this country was being run as a small biz, we would certainly see much more efficient practices, a country
where raising funds for alternatives would not pose a problem whatsoever,
There is potentially enough power to raise the funds for R&D, if the govts chose to use the existing resources in an efficient and sensible
manner.
Too many fingers in the pie, to many people trying to climb thier way to the top...........
We are all fucked and are going to die......
One day anyway! |
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