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 splitbusaustralia
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| posted on May 16th, 2004 at 06:27 PM |
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Country Buggy Spindles
Pulled down the CB spindles Brad sent me today and found out
some interesting things.
Getting them apart and the inner bearing races off them
was interesting - garage looked like something out of a cartoon
- discarded tools, broken and bent pullers. heat wrench
thrown in disgust etc etc. Anyway I digress.....
Here's a pic (with that sodding inner bearing race still on the
spindle...)
Now it looks like the CB spindle is completely unique to
anything else (much to my surprise)! Here it is compared
to an early (55-63) bus spindle. Steering arm is at the top
on the CB spindle and at the bottom of the bus spindle.
Note the difference in the stub axle. I can only assume the
CB spindle has a beetle type stub axle while the bus stub
axle is much chunkier. The CB spindles also have the
bigger later (64-67) 22mm King pins BUT they have the smaller earlier
splitbus (55-63) 20mm link pin carriers!
OK then there was the thought that the CB spindle was actually
the same as a barndoor bus (50-55) spindle. So I went and
checked my barny......
Well the barny has the steering arm at the top like the CB spindle
but the stub axle is the same as the 55-63 split bus stub axle
(ie much chunkier than the beetle like CB spindle) so they
are not the same either! The CB spindle seems to be a one off
thing (much to my surprise...still hard to believe...).
Now I can arrange a 55-63 splitbus spindle so that it has the
same relationship between the stub axle and the 20mm link pin
carriers (ie the same 'lift'). However, the steering arm would be at
the bottom and the stub axle would be the splitbus stub axle....
weird...
RobK
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jakjones
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| posted on May 16th, 2004 at 06:32 PM |
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very interesting, so where do you find some CB spindles and how much would one pay. ??
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 vw54
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| posted on May 16th, 2004 at 06:35 PM |
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So ROB wot D F are they OFF ?????
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splitbusaustralia
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| posted on May 16th, 2004 at 09:46 PM |
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Early early early?
Well,
The 22mm king pins (and 20mm link pin carriers) are
the same as those available for splitbus 63 only.
Given the high steering arm and small stub axle I now think the spindles could be real early (my last guess) maybe
kubel or 82e (maybe reamed out to take the 22mm king pin).
Somewhere I have a british MOD report from WWII where they
pulled apart a captured kubel and 82e and measured everything
up (diagrams etc etc). I'll drag it out and have a look at what
the spindles look like...
RobK
[Edited on 16-5-2004 by splitbusaustralia]
[Edited on 16-5-2004 by splitbusaustralia]
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Brad
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| posted on May 17th, 2004 at 09:51 AM |
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so basically they can't be copied from split bus stuff ? Is that correct ?
The main reason for using them is to get the steering geometry back so if teh only option would see the arm at teh bottom then this would defeat the
purpose of using them.
I will have to measure some Beetle stub axles up and see what they come up as. If they are the same as beetle then thsi will make the disc brake
conversion pretty easy.
So I am guessing they are a PITA to pull apart.... guess that was why we had to cut the drums off with the 9" as the press couldn't budge them and
the puller had no effect either.
Hoep they work out, don't fancy my chances of finding to many more sets
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MikeM
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| posted on May 17th, 2004 at 11:42 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
I will have to measure some Beetle stub axles up and see what they come up as. If they are the same as beetle then this will make the disc brake
conversion pretty easy.
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Either way we should be able to find bearings to fit standard beetle discs. You just need to know the inner and outer sizes and look in the
appropriate bearing catalog.
| Quote: |
Hope they work out, don't fancy my chances of finding to many more sets
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Yeah well if you happen to come accross a set I'll take em off your hands.
[Edited on 17-5-2004 by MikeM]
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BJ
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| posted on May 17th, 2004 at 01:13 PM |
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Have sent some emails off to companies who cast metal for a living. Hoping to get a price and if good hope to get 20 - 30 sets done to sell. Will
post more when I here a little more from then.
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BJ
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| posted on May 17th, 2004 at 01:31 PM |
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Are the carries where the link pin and kingpin the same as beetles as we may be able just to get the actual spindle section made seperate
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splitbusaustralia
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| posted on May 17th, 2004 at 01:45 PM |
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chanted the special spell
Well,
I did eventually get em apart and get the bearing carriers
off. They will be OK when finished (the
stub axles have some rust pitting I can't do anything
about but its an appearance thing - bearing seats and
threads etc are serviceable).
.....although I ended up having
the use the special spell which I don't use much any more.
That's the one where every line starts with F*&%...
RobK
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OZ Towdster
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| posted on May 17th, 2004 at 09:57 PM |
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Hold on BJ if we all throw some money into your idea (which i think is a very good one) lets try and get it right with a disc brake conversion
incorporated (NOT AN ILLEGAL BRACKET), bigger stub axle diametres, and of coarse the ever wanted offset down without comprimising steering geomtriy .
Now with those ideas in mind i consider it would be not to hard to make a mould for a stub axle of those requirements. Yes i do understand that it
would take many months and the price may not be available to all but for such an under taking i am pretty sure the rewards would great for all
involved PURCHASER AND SELLER.
Don't let body work get in the way of real suspension travel
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BJ
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 09:58 AM |
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yeah agree greatly with your idea Andrew. Have found a company how make spindles etc for many aftermarket companies. If we could work out a good
measurement and cad drawing and tolerances they will gives us a quote to setup up a mould and also production costs. I sure that if we were to get
alot made there would the chance of discount prices. I don't want to make money just want to get a great deal for anyone keen on these. Some people
may be keen to still have drum front brakes to keep the balance right. They are a quality assured company and seen very large and quick about a two -
three week turn around.
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MikeM
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 10:07 AM |
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Hmmmm.
Personally I think you should just re-manufacture the stock Country Buggy spindle. That way you increase your market to all the Country Buggy
restorers as well.
The stock Country buggy spindle is more than adequate for all our buggy needs, several LEGAL disc brake conversions are available from stock beetle
callipers right up to 6 pot Brembos. If you incorporate a disc brake then you leave no choices.
Also if you keep it stock, it will be easier to get blue plated etc.
If you feel the need to increase spindle size try and keep it a stock sizing like Split Bus size. I personally don't think this is necessary, have
you ever heard of anyone breaking a Country Buggy spindle?
I guess all this will depend on price to, but if you keep em stock I think you will sell a lot more, which will reduce price.
[Edited on 18-5-2004 by MikeM]
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Buggyboy
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 12:37 PM |
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Viewpoint
From a potential purchaser, I am with Mike, would much prefer the stock, with easier access to parts etc...
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Daniel
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 01:19 PM |
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What is this trying to achieve? (I must have missed an earlier post) I realise it's for a disk brake conversion, but for what type of VW, or will it
suit a couple of makes?
Are country buggy spindles stronger for more off-road use?
I don't need any, just wondering what the story is.
Cheers, Daniel.
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MikeM
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 01:31 PM |
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It's not for a disc brake conversion. Country Buggies stock have Split style drums.
The reason they are desirable is they are stronger and "raised". Look at the picture in the first post and compare with a beetle spindle. About 70mm
raise over a stock beetle spindle.
They are the most desirable "factory" option for offroad abuse in Link Pin form. If you like ball joints you would prefer 181 spindles. Are you more
confused now? Do a search on the forum.
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ratty 63
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 01:37 PM |
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....interesting....
I know of a couple of people who would be interested in purchasing a set of CB spindles (and yes, remanufactured would be fine). Thankfully I am
lucky enough to have stumbled over a genuine set, but I have a list of names as long as my arm of people who have offered to take them off my hands
should I decide that I don't need them! (It's not going to happen!) ... so this idea of yours sounds like a winner, as long as it is not too
expensive....
Keep us informed
R
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ratty 63
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 01:39 PM |
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...Oh yeah - I feel that a reproduction of the standard units would be the way to go - leaves the options open for brake fitment.
R
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Brad
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 02:28 PM |
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If you make non standard style ones then you need to get design approval which is a PITA.
If you remake then you only need to get build approval, much easier.
Bolt of Disc brake calliper brakets are LEGAL so I dunno what you are on about Andrew.
Drum brakes for BIAS ??? Disc up front work fine even with single circuit M/C and type 1 rears.
I thinking making them is a good idea... If you did then I reckon you try not to use hard to find parts like splitty king pins and the likes. Also if
you are going to get them made I reckon 181 spindles would sell better.
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BJ
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 03:51 PM |
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need to know dimension and tolerances and preferably a cad drwaing or if I can obtain both a left and right the company would be able to make a cad
drawing themselves and give us a quote on them. Any assistance with this would be greatly appreciated.
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splitbusaustralia
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 04:29 PM |
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You do need to think this through a bit...the 22mm king pin
with 20mm link pin carrier is one year splitbus only.
Or are you intending to make the king pin/link pin carrier sets too?
What I'm saying is that if you make the CB spindles as
per stock you'll then struggle to get the matching king pin
sets......
May be the early bus with 20mm kings and 20 mm link pin
carriers would be a better choice but they're quite hard to
find now too!
RobK
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Brad
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 04:52 PM |
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I reckon we just use beetle stuff it aint gunna break and if I could get 3" lift with them I would be happy
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BJ
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 04:56 PM |
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yeh way to go Brad use beetle stuff and have spindle made to suit. Beetle parts are a lot easier to come by for a start and how often have you herd
of some shearing a king or link pin.
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Brad
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 05:00 PM |
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I have broken link pins and stub axles but you can get Chrome Molly link pins pretty easy
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wibble
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| posted on May 18th, 2004 at 07:45 PM |
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And how badly would Brad be flogging his buggy for these breaks??????:thumb:thumb
I'm with the beetle bits theory and interested!
[Edited on 18-5-2004 by wibble]
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BJ
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| posted on May 19th, 2004 at 12:24 PM |
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Has any could any detailed drawings on these also even a cad drawing of these, will look at getting prices on doing both styles CB and 181 if I can
get a set to sent to the factory or techinal drawings. Any help with this would be appreciated.
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splitbusaustralia
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| posted on May 19th, 2004 at 12:31 PM |
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One way to do this kind of stuff is mock it up
out of parts (cut and reweld a stub axle onto on a beetle
spindle at the required place) and then digitise (digitising arm
or photogrammic) the part. You then have an 'easy' CAD representation (need to check it of course)...
I'm making hubs to put bay bus discs on splitbus spindles this way.
RobK
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Brad
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| posted on May 19th, 2004 at 01:09 PM |
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You can get 3" dropped spindels from the USA for $400 USD which is about $800 AUD landed brand new as a comparison
Specifications
1 ½ inch king pin
Includes link-pin bushings
Bearing ID 1 ¼ inner, 1 inch outer
Chromolly spindle
Ball joint brake baking plate pattern
Add $50.00 for King Kong link pin holes
AS-H $390.00 For Hiem ends
AS-B $395.00 For international tie rod ends
Still gunna have the same problem which is approval !!!
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Brad
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| posted on May 19th, 2004 at 01:11 PM |
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Hey RobK are you gunna be making some extra sets of disc ??
will they fit the CB spindles ?
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MikeM
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| posted on May 19th, 2004 at 01:35 PM |
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I have a deal going at the moment that (if it goes through) means I may very soon have a set of 181 spindles in Brisbane that you can borrow to
digitise.
However I would still like to go ahead with raised Link Pin (Country Buggy like) spindles. Maybe the best way to create a set of raised beetle
spindles to digitise would be to sacrifice two sets of spindles and weld them together with an offset the way Blind Chicken Racing do. Addmitedly they
use a couple of BJ spindles but you could do the same thing with LP ones. This would to create a welded spindle as a dummy to digitise.
Maybe you could even use a LP backing plate and a BJ spindle to get the thicker stock BJ spindle on a LP backing plate with an raised offset.
* As a note to everyone out there, it is illegal to use welded spindles on the road so don't do what BCR have done and use them on the road. But they
could be used as a template to digitise. *
http://www.blindchickenracing.com/How_to/Lifted_Spindles/Raisedspindles.htm
If someone (BJ?) is going to go ahead with this I have a set of LP beetle spindles I will donate to the cause. They have a dodgy seal surface but that
won't matter for use as a template.
Approval for this could be a problem. Who actually knows what we'd have to do?
[Edited on 19-5-2004 by MikeM]
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BJ
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| posted on May 19th, 2004 at 02:33 PM |
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I am keen to go adhead with this Mike. My current employer is currently building a street legal race car named the skelta. He is having parts
moulded and I will be finding out how he is going with approvals. Will try to contact him about this.
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