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Author: Subject: Aftermarket EFI - cont'd
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thumbup.gif posted on August 10th, 2004 at 10:18 AM
Aftermarket EFI - cont'd


I thought I would start a new part of the thread, as the old one seems to have developed some issues. post new posts here.

Old post can be found here
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=15209




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smile.gif posted on August 10th, 2004 at 02:11 PM
Thanks Wes!


...the old thread seems to have developed a bad attitude or something....

I have had some interesting things come to light over the last couple of days. I replaced the Kombi EFI pump with one from a VL Commodore (bought it from a wreckers) - only reason I replaced the Kombi one is that it belonged to my brother....

I can't recell weather I mentioned this in the past, however, ever since I set this engine up I have had a problem with the charge warning light being on (on my dashboard), I just assumed that the generator or regulator was not working correctly and wouldn't effect the operation of the EFI (as long as the battery doesn't go flat!). It turns out that my assumption appeared to be incorrect. Whilst I was attempting to get the engine to run smoothly, the charging system decided to come good - the effect on the engine was nothing short of amazing! It began to run smoothly and it went from running lean (and me not being able to correct this issue) to running extremly rich (large black clouds from the exhaust and stinging eyes:mad: ). I had just about managed to get the O2 reading close to the centre of the scale (which is where it should be), when the engine began to misfire again - I turned around to check to make sure that nothing was loose/had fallen off/caught on fire/run out of fuel/etc when I noticed that the charge light was flickering on and off. I gave the regulator a tap and the warning light came on and stayed on - the engine stalled almost immediatly and refused to run again. As this all happened just as it was getting dark I decided that I had had enough for one day, and would look at it again the following day. When I tried again the next day, the charge light went out and the system ran perfectly - I managed to make a few more changes before the charge light came back on and the engine stopped (with a loud backfire!)

I had a look at the regulator and discovered that it had an internal short to ground(intermittant), which would cause the voltage from the generator do do some strange things! Rather than just buying another reg, I decided to do the right thing and upgrade to an altinator (new) - I should have done this to start with as generators just don't give a clean enough supply to be used with EFI systems. I am just waiting for my parts supplier to get me a price now....

So for the next couple of days things will be on hold until I recieve and fit the altinator - then we try again....

I will be using the spare time to update my website and clean up some little things on the engine.

I showed the original fuel pump to a couple of people and they all think that it is a low pressure pump so I will probably use it in place of the rather noisy 'ticker' pump that is currently looking after the low pressure feed to the surge tank. The fuel reg is working fine.

OK, back soon with some more info and findings hopefully!

R:)




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posted on August 10th, 2004 at 07:27 PM


Interesting that that system is susceptible to voltage fluctuation to the degree that it is.
Usually efi computers will operate down to quite low voltages to allow for flattish batteries on a cold morning kind of thing.
Tha fact that the thing had enough grunt to actually wind the engine over but not enough to run the computer correctly bothers me a bit but perhaps it is an idiosyncrasy of Delco hardware.

Keep at it ratty!
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posted on August 10th, 2004 at 07:54 PM


maybe if you fitted a power noise/filter/stabiliser type thing the EFI might run just off the battery. You can buy them for car stereo installations. Don't know what the proper name is.

Having an EFI system that can run off a battery would be a good thing, especially with an offroader.

When I first had my V6 in the front cut I could run it off a rather flat battery with no alternator without any problems with the EFI. In fact for a while I was running it off the battery that came with the front cut (from japan). It read 0 volts on the battery, completely stuffed. I thought I would charge it to see what happened, and it charges. It was always lowish, but if it was charged enough to turn the starter then the motor and EFI would always run.




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posted on August 11th, 2004 at 11:32 AM


From my understanding (and feel free to correct me if you like!) shorting the field terminal to ground on the regulator will effectivly disable the regulator, allowing the full voltage of the generator (around 50 - 60 volts I am told!) to enter the rest of the electrical system. If this is indeed the case I feel that it is a credit to the Delco that it is still working!

I'm still waiting for a price on an Altinator - this is likely to take some time as my supplier, well, lets just say, can take some time to get things done (especially when you are related:( ) I think I will give him 'till Friday, then go somewhere else if I haven't heard anything - sad isn't it.

R




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posted on August 11th, 2004 at 12:27 PM


Must be frustrating to get so close, only to have something else go wrong every time. Still, at least this means you should have all the gremlins out of the works by the time its running properly.

I've moved to the next step of research, and shelled out my hard earned cash to buy that Electronic Engine Management Reference Manual you mentioned - if anyone else is interested, its by Frank Munday, and available from either Graffiti publishers or Amazon.com (about $16 US + $9 US postage). Looking forward to receiving it and continuing my research.

Keep at it, I'm sure the first time you drive it will put a huge grin on your face.

:P
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posted on August 11th, 2004 at 01:46 PM


Frank is a bit of a legend. He regularly posts on another board of which I am a member.
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posted on August 11th, 2004 at 02:14 PM


So it should be a good book then I guess ? I have read the outline (contents) and it seems like its got some very good content.
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posted on August 11th, 2004 at 02:29 PM


yep, its a good read - doesn't go into the really heavy stuff, but is enough to answer most of your questions. Very easy to read and understand, well worth purchasing.

R




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posted on August 11th, 2004 at 07:34 PM


Ratty
Umm cant confirm no deny but if the field voltage is held to zero volts then the alternator output will be zero volts as the gennie requires field voltage to generate at all. Ive never tried it!!

Even if the gennie may have gone to full output the battery will act as the buffer in the system and it will absorb and dissipate the excess juice from the system. (for a while anyway)

That voltage you are referring to would be the gennie running open circuit/no load.

The voltage may have risen somewhat even with it charging flat out but the battery voltage will only have risen to perhaps 15 or 16V at the very most so the comnputer would have no issue with that.

Coincidently, I managed to flash the regulator on my ute the other night and the 55Amp alternator went to full output and ther battery voltage rose to about 16.5V after about 10 minutes of fast idling!!!!
IOt was a complete fluke that i spotted the drama befor I drove up to work the next morning and fried the battery!!

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posted on August 13th, 2004 at 11:05 AM


Quote:

Even if the gennie may have gone to full output the battery will act as the buffer in the system and it will absorb and dissipate the excess juice from the system. (for a while anyway)




Quote:

That voltage you are referring to would be the gennie running open circuit/no load.



Yep, quite correct, but I think that the generator running at full load may have been causing some strange electronic interfearence that was playing with the operations of the ECU - not really sure, but I do know that disconnecting the gen and reg caused a remarkable improvement in operation!

I have had a similar situation to the one you mention above, where the reg on my old company car (3 cylinder, 1 litre Suzuki Swift - yuk, gutless wonder) passed out one night (I work nights). I noticed that when I left work at about 1:30am, the headlights appeared to be brighter than normal. By the time I had hit the freeway (about 1 min) I had lost the low beam from one of the headlights. I drove the half hour trip to head office with no other issues, however on my return journey (I live about 3 mins drive from the store), I flicked the headlights from high beam to low beam as a car approached on one of the hilly backroads that I use as a shortcut, it was at this point I discovered that the other headlight had lost low beam too! YIKES! Bit tricky driving home that night - recieved a few polite gestures from other motorists when I wouldn' t use low beam, but I made it home.

I took the car to the company mechanic the next day (after replacing the headlight bulbs), when I arrived he opened the bonnet and put a meter across the battery - then jumped back yelling "turn it off, turn it off!". The battery had a reading of over 28 volts with the engine running! He was worried that it would explode. You could smell the contents of the battery boiling!:mad:

Surprisingly, the only casualties of this little episode were the two headlight bulbs, but no doubt it reduced the life of the almost everything else electrical in the car!

This car was not EFI, but the Swift I have now is, so I hope that this does not happen again!

On the subject of this thread - I am having trouble getting a price from my parts supplier, but I have had a look around at other suppliers and the best price I can come up with is $299 for the complete kit. I will probably go this way if I don't hear anything from my supplier by Monday.

R




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posted on August 13th, 2004 at 12:44 PM


I just had a wander around some of the web sites that I used to visit when reasearching my EFI system and I came across an interesting thing...

I had often wondered if the type III intake manifolds could be modified successfully to suit a type I engine, and it would appear that they can - no pics unfortunatly, however from the description I gather that the type III manifolds have to be cut, shortened and then re-welded to fit, then they have to be swapped to the opposite side of the engine (opposite to the side that they would be mounted on in a type III set-up). From this desicription I feel that it would look very similar to the EFI system that is fitted to the Mexican beetles (like the two that were at Valla - did anyone get a close look at them - very interesting!)

I still wonder how the manifolds would clear the generator stand....

You would then have to make your own manifold centre..... hmmm, might have a look at this once I have my current system organised.

R

[Edited on 13-8-2004 by ratty 63]




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posted on August 13th, 2004 at 04:23 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by ratty 63
I just had a wander around some of the web sites that I used to visit when reasearching my EFI system and I came across an interesting thing...

I had often wondered if the type III intake manifolds could be modified successfully to suit a type I engine, and it would appear that they can - no pics unfortunatly, however from the description I gather that the type III manifolds have to be cut, shortened and then re-welded to fit, then they have to be swapped to the opposite side of the engine (opposite to the side that they would be mounted on in a type III set-up). From this desicription I feel that it would look very similar to the EFI system that is fitted to the Mexican beetles (like the two that were at Valla - did anyone get a close look at them - very interesting!)

I still wonder how the manifolds would clear the generator stand....

You would then have to make your own manifold centre..... hmmm, might have a look at this once I have my current system organised.

R Why dont u just use the FI mexi beetle set up then,its a neat setup Primate was selling one a few weeks back.

[Edited on 13-8-2004 by ratty 63]
:):):)
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posted on August 13th, 2004 at 08:49 PM


Ratty63-check out the Racers Edge section-iswinkles is running FI on his car-a good read.Check out his manifolds and throttle bodies.
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posted on August 13th, 2004 at 09:05 PM


If you use the Mexican Beetle FI manifolds I believe you will need to modify the engine bay.I purchased a rear panel from a new FI Mexican car to weld into my Oval.The metal channel that holds the engine bay seal was about 40mm lower than the original one and doesn't line up with the side ones-therfore I can only assume that the FI body would have the side channels 40mm lower as well to give the required room for the injectors to prevent fouling on the body.I have also fitted one of these panels to a 66 Beetle and it didn't line up either.A clue for any body doing this job-trying to remove the original channel to reweld it lower is a pain because they are shit quality.I found the locking rods used for B&D roller doors are almost the same shape as the original channels and are galvanised and bend around the curve real easy.Just clamp as you go and braze into position.When finished just run around tapping the C section smaller and seal fits in good.
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posted on August 13th, 2004 at 09:15 PM


No got that all ballsed up-it was 6 months ago when I did that job-just went and checked my car.The Mexican rear panel had the seal channel about 40 mm higher than the original so makes that story sound like it was written by a dickhead. Can't figure why there would be a difference though.Did anybody take notice of the Mexican one at the last show.
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posted on August 13th, 2004 at 10:53 PM


Hi

The panel opposite the spark plugs looke different to a normal bugs, but they looked like the ones you see on late EFI Cabrios, the shelf looks narrower. To fit the Mexican manifold you would need to use the alternator stand from the mex bug, the 2 tubes run between it and the fan housing, I reckon you could make one out of steel pretty easily.

You can seen the shelf in this picture.
http://www.clubvw.org.au/images/Valla_2004_36.JPG

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posted on August 14th, 2004 at 12:53 PM


Is there much difference in the Alt. stand?Is that aluminium thing bolted to the original fuel pump bolts something to do with the intake manifold? You can see the rear engine bay seal sits right up level with the rear panel and the opening for the motor definately looks a lot wider.Thanks for that pic.
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posted on August 14th, 2004 at 09:41 PM


Hi

The bracket is just a support for the manifold, the alternator stand is really cutout to clear the manifold. Next time I see one I take a better picture.

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posted on August 16th, 2004 at 03:05 AM


http://www.btlmex.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=13  ;)
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posted on August 16th, 2004 at 07:03 AM


Thanks Steve, Lugnuts

This is quite interesting, as I bought the FI stuff Primate was selling. He did a superb job wrapping it up and getting it ready for a freinds, freind to collect it for me. I give him Top marks for a sellers rating :D

I haven't had a chance to look closely at how the Mexi stuff will fit the engine / engine bay. First task is to get it road legal again with a standard carby motor.

So what are you thinking now Ratty, I thought you'd got every thing pretty much sussed.

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posted on August 16th, 2004 at 09:29 AM


Yep, everything is working and I am reasonably happy with it all (or at least I will be once I have my Alternator fitted later today!), however the injectors and fuel rails will overhang the sides of the engine compartment, making it impossible to get the engine in or out (of a standard bug engine bay) without first having to removed the injectors and fuel rails. Not very practical from that point of view - hopefully I won't have to remove it all that often, so it won' t be that much of an issue, however....

I feel that if I could find some way of mounting the injectors in an upright position (like the CB Performance manifolds and the mexican bugs do) then this problem would be removed and I would be 100% happy with the set-up.

It's only a minor thing, but something that others may wish to consider before manufacturing something to suit their engine.

I had thought of mounting the injectors further up the manifold end castings, basically pointing directly down the manifold (in the area where the sharper downward bend is). I know that this is not considered to be the perfect position for the injectors, however as I am running a batch fire injecton system, I can't see it having that much effect on the overall operation of the engine. I have also heard that the further up the manifold that you position the injectors, the more low down grunt you get - has anyone else heard this?

For now I will be running this engine the way it is, however I will always be looking for ways to improve it, as long as it doesn't mean spending a fortune for only a minor improvement!

R




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posted on August 16th, 2004 at 10:05 AM


Hi

The injector position on my wasserboxer manifold was always a pain, they went out horizontaly and ran straight into the shelves in the engine bay but I left it like that, I figue VW know more than me about ideal injector placement.

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posted on August 16th, 2004 at 03:17 PM


well done Ross glad to hear it is finally running

Marc




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posted on August 18th, 2004 at 12:43 PM


... is nothing easy?

Man, what did I do to deserve all these hasles!?

It should be easy, right? Just pick up an Alternator (new - just to be sure) from my parts supplier, change the fan and pully from my generator on to it, and fit it to the engine - nothing to it, right?

Wrong!:(

I picked up the alternator on Monday arvo., was told that the pully from the 38amp generators fits the alternator and I already have an Alternator stand on the engine so no need for other parts.

The Alternator is a Bosch AL82N, but I there is no other info regarding the Alt on the box or on the paperwork that comes with it, so I have a look on the 'net for details (amp rating mainly). Every second site has a different amp rating for this alternator! It's somewhere between 51 and 57 amps... can anyone clarify this for me? Whilst I am looking for the answer to the above question I find a discussion regarding a problem with the pully rubbing on the front housing of the alternator...hmmm

Tuesday morning, pull down the 38amp generator to get fan, fan backing plate, pully, and woodruf (sp?) keys from it to fit the Alt. Pull the fan off easy but the key is missing from it (so in theory, the fan was not fastened to the shaft, and was able to spin freely!). Attempt to get the back half of the pully off. Fight with it for around an hour(!) before it let go (rusted on) - at least this end still had the key. Pull down a second 38amp generator to get the second key from the fan end - no problems with this one.

Fit fan and backing plate to alternator - easy. Clean up pully and fit back half to the alt. As I was starting to expect (with my luck so far) - it rubs on the alternator case! Aaaarrrrrgg!

Decide to fit a couple of washers between the spacer on the alternator shaft and the pully - can't find any that fit - Grrr! Drive to local fastener supplier, but on the way have to pass my parts supplier, so I drop in to show them the problem. They were surprised to see that the pully came in contact with the case of the alt, and mentioned that they had fitted a few and it had never happened before. Just as an experiment we grabbed a new pully from the shelf and dropped it onto the alt - no interfearence problems even though they look identical! $20 later I have a new pully and I go home and finish the install.

Is it over yet? No!:bounce

Everything fitted I start the engine. The warning light on my makeshift dashboard doesn't go out - aaaarg. Now whats wrong with it? After checking and re-checking everything I had done I decided that either the warning light doesn't draw enough current to 'start' the alternator or the alternator is faulty. I grab my 12V test light and (with the engine running) connect one end to a 12V supply and the other to the field terminal on the Alt....Bingo! the warning light goes out and my multimeter jumps from 12.4V to 13.8V - who would have thought!

Tempting fate, I'm going to refit the exhaust today as I feel that it may be leaking around where the manifold pre-heaters have been blocked off, causing some strange readings on the O2 sensor. Wish me luck!

R




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posted on August 18th, 2004 at 01:14 PM


Good luck!! :bounce



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posted on August 18th, 2004 at 01:22 PM


Ratty

Maybe leave it a month before you play lotto again :D

Seriously though I can fully understand your frustrations, my 1302 mods usually run into similiar problems, and even more frustrating is when work projects follow suite..... I must be jinxed :o

Hence I don't play lotto...

Don't give in!

Cheers
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posted on August 18th, 2004 at 04:04 PM


Good luck Ross



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posted on August 18th, 2004 at 10:49 PM


I've been following this topic reasonably closely (after the topic had been going for quite some time) and it seems that what our market is missing is an affordable EFI kit.

It just seems that people go thru all sorts of hell to get an EFI system (of one sort or another) up and going.

Averyone that has one seem to swear by them, but all the muckin' around must sometimes seem hardly worth while.

Are there kits out there that can be fitted and tuned without too much bother?




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posted on August 18th, 2004 at 11:14 PM


Hi Ratty63

Was the back 1/2 of your old pulley cast iron? If it was they dont fit alternators.

The money Ive spent on EFI on my car I could have bought a EJ20T.

1302Steve
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