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 radioactive_ben
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 posted on October 23rd, 2005 at 11:37 PM |
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Adjusters or drop spindles??
Hi
I am in the mraket for something to lower my 67 vw and just was wondering if anyone ccould brighten up the subject of which device to use adjusters or
drop spindles. Like what are the pros on cons of them?? With adjusters how far can you lower your car as to the spindles on 2 1/2 inches?
Cheers :thumb:thumb
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twoguns
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| posted on October 23rd, 2005 at 11:39 PM |
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drop spindles will widen your track, so depending on your clearance adjsuters are probably better. unless you go narrowed, adjsuters and drop
spindles! 
Simply Cruzin'...
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VWFOOL
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 01:35 AM |
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how low do u want to go?
if its lower than 2.5 inches then u need adjusters.
spindles ride like stock but widen track an inch and only go down 2.5 inches.
ride will be stiffer with just adjusters but u can get down much lower.
id say a combination of the two.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Adam_C
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 12:03 PM |
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Youve learnt well young grasshopper
Adam
Adzslick@iprimus.com.au
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 Bizarre
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 12:34 PM |
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man.... i love the simplicity of struts 
The other thing to consider is to pick you wheels first. This will tell you if you can afford the luxury of spindles.
Other wise you spend all this money and then find you have to change plans cause the wheels now rub :duh
Futue te ipsum!!!
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fullnoise
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 01:01 PM |
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Which will give you less problems.
When I had one adjuster the front suspension was too stiff which caused too much understeer.
When I had 2 adjusters I bottomed out the ball joints which you don't see unless you pull the dust covers off the balljoints. On that note I've had
a balljoint fall out of the arm on a recently inspected beetle. Luckily it was at low speed becasue the front left suspension hit the ground and the
wheel tucked right up in the guard. I had to stop with the handbrake because the foot brake made the car dart to the left.
The ride was also stiff due to the angle of the suspension arms. You will probably find you are bottoming out the shock and have to cut down the bump
stop or have some extensions made up (I haven't tried this).
Drop spindles are good except they are poor in quality and flex near the tie-rod causing toe-out under brakes. However a lot of people are using them.
I suggest these are okay for the street but not for performance applications. Luckily I ran negative camber with the drop spindles; because of the
increase in track the 195s would not fit under the guards.
I hope that helps. CYA CT
esratrams
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 02:02 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
Which will give you less problems.
When I had one adjuster the front suspension was too stiff which caused too much understeer.
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That's interesting, should have made it softer.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 02:07 PM |
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If you cut and turn (or fit selecta drops) to both beams, there shouldn't be any rise in spring rate as they are both doing the same 'work' as
standard. Yes, if you go too low, there will be problems with ball joint bind and damper travel (bottoming out) and a harsher ride due to the angle of
the arms forcing the tyre into bumps with grreater force. There will also be issues with caster etc - but I have had two droppers in my front beam for
more than a decade with good success. Aaprt from one recurring problem (now fixed) with one loose bolt, I have been able to make my car steer and
handle to my satisfaction
Edit: By TOO low, I mean, bottomed-out with standard components such as dampers. The bumpstops for BJ beetles are internal to the damper, but it's
possible to maintain sufficient suspension stroke/travel without bottoming out the suspension
[ Edited on 24-10-2005 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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fullnoise
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 02:37 PM |
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Hi Craig,
The car understeered more with one adjuster. I did a back to back test with a single adjuster beam and then a double adjuster beam. Theory says
stiffen the front to increase understeer or reduce oversteer. So the change in handling backs up my comment.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought having one adjuster rotating the springs to oppose the other springs makes the suspension stiffer. It preloads
both springs.
Like your brother says, with two adjusters you can move the springs in parallel and maintain the spring rate.
I wanted to restore front suspension travel because the front end would get unsettled by bumps and the ride was horrid.
I don't know why I'm explaining this but here goes. A standard suspension has the trailing arms pointing downwards, about 10 degrees below
horizontal at a guess. The adjusters create a new neutral postion that has the arms pointing horizontally. In that position the shocks, which are
designed for the standard ride height, are now compressed beyond their intended neutral position. The balljoints, which are also designed for the
standard ride height, are also sitting at a new point that is not in the middle of their movement but closer to the side they would be at at maximum
compression.
I cut the bumpstop in the shock to restore the suspension travel. The bumpstop is designed to stop the suspension components, like balljoints,
bottoming out. So the balljoints hit the edge they were already sitting close to.
When did you last inspect the balljoints on your car Craig?
Regards CT
esratrams
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 04:14 PM |
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I set my beam up without the torsion leaves, then moved the trailing arms in their arc to understand where balljoint bind would occur. This gave me a
basis as to where the bumpstops needed to be in the shocks so the front suspension would not go to that point.
One adjuster takes the load off one set of of torsion leaves but then places the load onto the other set, so this would mean that you have reduced the
spring rate or in turn softened the suspension.
The lower the car, the softer the spring rate needs to be to compensate for the arms becoming more horizontal.
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fullnoise
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 05:06 PM |
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I'm not going to argue about the theory Craig.
I didn't like the single adjuster beam which was the way Hellbug liked to set up the beams.
I don't like adjusters because they just aren't as low and soft as I wanted for my setup.
Can you grab your front bumper brackets and bounce the car up and down 2-3 inches?
CYA CT
esratrams
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fullnoise
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 05:12 PM |
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I didn't check the balljoints for binding when I trimmed my bump stops but I should've.
I went and bought new bumpstops for the konis when I got the drop spindles and tried to check all the clearences at maximum suspension compression.
See attached.
PS I hope this is helping radioactive_ben, he says his mood is confused, and that was at the start of this post.
[ Edited on 24-10-2005 by fullnoise ]
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esratrams
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radioactive_ben
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 06:55 PM |
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Um yeah its starting to lighten the subject but also confusing  it
sounding harder and harder as this post develops..
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pete wood
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 07:52 PM |
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dude from memory you have an early beetle with a king and linkpin front beam. you don't have to worry about the ball joints as you don't have any.
Here is my call. I owned a beetle with a cut and turned front beam. it was too low (wrecked the bump stops) and there was nothing I could do about it.
I suggest if you are serious you wanna go the whole hog. That means narrowing the beam a little (say 2 inchs), putting adjusters in and using dropped
spindles as well. This will allow you use the drop spindles and some front discs without an increase in track but still have all your suspension
movement and be able to drop the car almost literally onto the tarmac safely. It won't be cheap, say around $2k when finished, but it will work well,
be adjustable and most importantly, be safe. BTW, make sure you get it engineered and approved. 
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crewcabconnection
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 08:44 PM |
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I thought dropped spindles are not NSW RTA legal. Adjustable beam, only with engineers...
Loves a lolcat
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 08:54 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fullnoise
I'm not going to argue about the theory Craig.
I didn't like the single adjuster beam which was the way Hellbug liked to set up the beams.
I don't like adjusters because they just aren't as low and soft as I wanted for my setup.
Can you grab your front bumper brackets and bounce the car up and down 2-3 inches?
CYA CT
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No arguement about the theory CT..................my car has handled superbly with the same setup since 95, whereas others seem to be forever
searching for the "right" setup. I also setup Nathan Abbots suspension (Bat 69) and he is certainly experiencing the benefits of my so called
theory.
As for your "bounce test", well that's controlled by the shocks.Take them off and my car bounces like the jugs on a DD fat mamma.
CT, maybe as a future routine you could check where the balljoint binds before you cut the bumpstops, this should help out with the previous problems
you experienced with the balljoint failing.
If you are looking for my 2 cents worth................adjusters can contol height, spring rate and won't change your wheel track, you just need to
know how to get the best out of the right combination.........like engines really.:thumb
[ Edited on 24-10-2005 by Craig Torrens ]
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VWCOOL
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 11:10 PM |
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if this car is a 67 it will have linkpins - so there are no balljoints to bind and the travel will be limited by separate bumpstops - not part of the
shocks. But most of the same theories apply - but before we throw any more tech at you, how low do you want to go... and why?
Pay your debts, CxxT
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radioactive_ben
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| posted on October 24th, 2005 at 11:16 PM |
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I guess a few inches really i want the car to sit lower to the ground and not have the wheels look so seperate and open from the car if that makes any
sense to you . and its to suit the whole racer look i am going for.
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VWFOOL
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 12:05 AM |
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although very informative, maybe that info is a little confusing and maybe too complicated for wat this guy wants.
mate just get adjusters welded into ur beam and expect a bit harsher ride and u shuld b happy enuff with that. unless u want a rake (front lower than
rear) get the rear lowered so ur car is level.
later, WHEN you want to go lower, u can spend money on the rest (dropped spindles and/or narrowing beam) to get it right down low.
sam
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VWFOOL
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 12:08 AM |
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this was my car wen it was lowered with an adjustable beam with 2 adjusters, is this wat ur talking about?
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
One man's junk...
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radioactive_ben
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 12:10 AM |
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yeah thats not to bad how much did u lower it by?
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VWFOOL
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 12:12 AM |
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wouldnt hav a clue
id be measuring how far my car was from the ground than how much lower it is than stock, smaller number.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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radioactive_ben
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 07:46 PM |
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Just a question with lowering a Vw what is a rake for does it have any benefit or is it just for looks?
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VWCOOL
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 09:35 PM |
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lol... you are interested in the 'Look'... hey, nothing we said matters any more
Pay your debts, CxxT
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karmannghia60
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| posted on October 26th, 2005 at 10:35 AM |
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I reckon if its a daily driver then you need drop spindles which will give you 2.5" non-adjustable drop. You will still maintain the factory
suspension geometry so won't compremise the ride quality which is important if you are driving the car every day. Yes they do widen the track but if
you are using stock or skinny rims, it won't matter.
My opinion anyway.
Raf
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fullnoise
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| posted on October 26th, 2005 at 08:29 PM |
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I agree with Raf,
Dropped spindles maintain the standard suspension's ability to soak up bumps which is a blessing if you regularly drive down Parramatta road in
Sydney or take the car on long trips.
Well maintained standard beetles are great at soaking up bumps so keeping the standard geometry and spring rates is a good idea.
After experimenting with various race set-ups I see no benefit in making the front springs stiffer.
The tyre temperatures and pressure changes show that the softer settings make the tyres work better.
My car has 2 adjusters and dropped spindles so I'm not biased. I've got my adjusters set at the standard height.
My final call is that you should get a set of dropped spindles and add some negative camber if you can which may help your vehicle turn-in to corners.
An added bonus is that the negative camber creates more clearence between the top of the wheel and the guard which may help overcome issues created by
the wider track.
Castor shims are cheap and easy to install and are probably adviseable if you're going for a nose-down stance.
CYA CT
PS Craig, do you think single adjusters are better than double adjusters? What does your car have?
[ Edited on 26-10-2005 by fullnoise ]
[ Edited on 26-10-2005 by fullnoise ]
esratrams
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VWFOOL
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| posted on October 26th, 2005 at 08:38 PM |
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my old beam had single adjuster and my new beam has double, the new beam is heaps lower than the old beam and the ride is so much better. so i belive
that the ride is harsher with the single adjuster setup.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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radioactive_ben
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| posted on October 29th, 2005 at 10:02 PM |
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another question with drop spindles then how big can you have your wheels before you have to narrow the beam??
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