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 ruckus
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 posted on November 20th, 2005 at 07:39 PM |
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Approximate cost of a Subi Standard Bug?
Saw Hellbus' awesome subi powered Bay today and I couldn't believe how well it was put together. On the way home I couldn't help 'what iffing'
about having an Ej in my '71 standard. So...
How much do people estimate it would cost to put a subi into a late standard bug?
Labour doesn't interest me as much at the moment as I'd like to get a clear picture of the cost of the parts first. So I guess a listing of parts
needed and approximate costs would be good. I've seen some in the US and Germany but I'd like to get Aussie prices instead. I know the COR guys do a
lot of awesome parts, but how many of these can be used in a bug?
Would you have to upgrade the standard disk/drum brakes on a bug?
Thanks for any help given. Sorry if people feel this has been done too many times before.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 20th, 2005 at 08:03 PM |
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The brake upgrade will depend on your engineer, but most probably wouldn't ask for anything more than the standard discs and drums. In the QLD mod
code it specifically states you can put a SOHC 2lt engine into a beetle with the standard brakes. Anything bigger is up to the engineers opinion.
As for prices, my website may be of some assistance. Although not an EJ, most prices should be similar or cheaper.
http://www.offroadvw.net/bajawes/V6_baja/january.html
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ruckus
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| posted on November 20th, 2005 at 08:08 PM |
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Wow thanks Wes. Your price tag is a little better than I could hope for though I think 
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1303
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| posted on November 20th, 2005 at 08:38 PM |
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Price is going to depend on the standard of finish you want, the quality of parts you use and whether those parts are new or used.
There is a whole lot to a conversion and the problem is that it's a bit like asking a VWhead how much thier big bore or stroker engine cost to
build......generally you need to add on about 20-30%! as based on my experience the little extras, for some reason get left out of the equation!
Some say $3000 some say $10 000. I think if you budget some where in the middle (maybe even a liitle more to the higher end it would be realistic) you
would be close.
Say:
Engine $850-$1000
Adaptor Plate $600
Clutch/Flywheel machining & Balancing $350+
Fuel Line (solid and High Pressure hose) $80+
ECU $1100 +
Clamps/Saddles $100
Radiator $250+
Overflow bottle $20+
Coolant Line(solid and Hose) $250+
Thermo Fans $100+each
Steel for the endless amount of brackets and cutting discs $100+
Relays/wire/terminals etc $150+
Fuel Pump $200 each(you may need two)
Surge tank $100+
Radiator header tank $100 ( or try and use the standrd unit)
Exuast Bends/Muffler/flanges etc $300+
Air Filter $70+
Intercooler piping(or hosing for water to air) $100+
Nuts and Bolts etc$50+
Then if you put rear disks on, make up some bracing for the forks or engine, enclose the parcelshelf area after cuting,make up bumper brackets,modify
rear apron you could add another $1000.
Then get it weighed,sound tested,and changes at the RTA at a total of about $350
Thats my 2 cents and I think that this is conservative, I guess if you pulled a few favours , managed to get hold of some real cheap parts and cut
corners here and there you could do it for less.
No doubt I will be proven wrong!
Cheers Paul
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 helbus
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| posted on November 20th, 2005 at 08:41 PM |
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Wow you must really have been thinking about it.  I definitley recommend
Custom Off Road for all of the Suby adaption gear. The wiring loom was so easy to fit once modified by them.
From what I can see there is definitley a fair bit of room with the SOHC EJ motors.
Saves having to worry about fitting in a type 4 with an upright kit,
but then there is always the radiator issue? Especially in a beetle.
Plenty of neat watercooled conversions on this forum though.
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helbus
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| posted on November 20th, 2005 at 08:50 PM |
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I just read 1303's post.
We run standard Suby ECU and that came with second hand motor. We got for $1000
EJ22 motor local 1994 Liberty 128,000 km's with engine mounts
Wiring loom complete with relays
Ignitor (part of ignition system)
ECU
The adapter plate and flywheel come together as a kit and the flywheel had a sticker on it saying it had not been balanced, but I didn't do it and it
seems fine.
Our conversion cost about $7000 for me to do myself, but that included a
$1000 motor
$1500 gearbox rebuild
$1100 in mechanical work such as fitting new brake hoses, new cambelt fitted to second hand engine, repack CV joints.
$160 for an EFI fuel pump
Most of the rest of the cost was as 1303 listed and COR stuff
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ruckus
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| posted on November 20th, 2005 at 08:56 PM |
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Thanks so much Paul and Pete for the detailed info. I'm glad I dug into this a bit further as I was getting a little too ambitious. As much as I
really want to do it, it's clear that I need to have plenty of time and cash to do it properly!
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boof2332
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| posted on November 20th, 2005 at 09:01 PM |
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I had cost it up without gearbox or discs at about $5k, as I have been asked to do a few lately...only one definetly.
Availability of motors can bump it up a little.
Jak, 1303 and myself all needed rear discs for engineering.
Has anyone looked at importing the ej20tt from NZ and just going back to the single turbo....there are silly amounts of imports there...may be worth
looking into.
Matt
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 20th, 2005 at 09:16 PM |
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whether you need rear discs or not depend on what EJ your talking.
An NA EJ22 SOHC I don't think you would, but an EJ20t I reckon you almost definitely will.
Without taking into account how much I sold my VW motor for, my conversion cost me a little under $3500 including conversion to rear disc brakes. I
did pretty much everything myself (or had mates help) so I don't think you'll get a decent engine transplant done for less than that.
If you read the "Consumables" section of my site you will see a lot of little things people don't think about actually add up to be quite a lot in
the end.
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Brad
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| posted on November 21st, 2005 at 11:09 PM |
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COR would do it for drive in / drive out $8800 so you should get out of it for around $5000 if you do your own labour.
If you use an EJ 22 there is no cutting of the main shell required and it wil fit under your engine lid without moving the transmission fwd.
If you used 2nd hand parts such as radiator then you can save even more. If you buy a low KM half cut then you can offload the left overs and cover
most of the cost.
I would think if you had $5000 and the time / resources and skill to fab up the few things you need you would come out of it sweat.
When you consider that the COR deal includes and heap of stuff you don't need if you do your own. Such as new water pump, seals, cam belt, radiator,
thermo, fuel pump, stainless clamps and fittings, new muffler, new cat and a warranty all of which cost money you don't have to spend if you are
doing your own.
If you go into it with under $5000 you may get away with it but you could also end up on the side of the road with issues problems.
One good thing about the conversion is that there are now heaps of people around that can provide you with advice and assistance if you need it.
I hope that helps.
Cheers,
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VWCOOL
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| posted on November 22nd, 2005 at 06:46 AM |
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I am so glad there are some 'real world' prices (ie: $5000+) being quoted here, and no "I got my engine for $850" misleads! There is a fair bit of
work involved - get it right and you wil wish you'd done it years ago; get it wrong and you will wish that you retained the simple, reliable virtues
of a classic VW engine!
One more thing: You will also need to factor in the cost of the engineers certificate - you will need to speak to an engineer before you begin work to
determine what brakes, seatbelts (etc etc) you will need. Technically, if the donor car had vented front disc brakes, then the transplanted car needs
the same, although I am aware of some cars/conversion that haven't done this
Pay your debts, CxxT
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ruckus
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| posted on November 22nd, 2005 at 07:52 AM |
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Yeah it sounds like that can cost anwhere from $800 up?
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 22nd, 2005 at 09:11 AM |
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engineers fees in QLD are cheap. When I had mine done I paid $80 for the blue plate and the first mod code, and $20 for each additional code after
that. Engine and brakes are 2 codes (3 if you include brake design).
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helbus
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| posted on November 22nd, 2005 at 12:22 PM |
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In Melbourne most engineers are asking $750 to do a VESS report. I know because I am shopping around to get one for the bus.
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EgeWorks
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| posted on November 22nd, 2005 at 12:31 PM |
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Question: If the car had it's conversion done in Queensland, but was registered and driven in Vic (or any other state) would it's engineering
certificate be vaild?
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barls
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| posted on November 22nd, 2005 at 12:35 PM |
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it depends on the certificate you get for it. im not sure on this but im sure if you have a copy of the engineers with you i couldnt see it being a
problem
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1303Steve
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| posted on November 22nd, 2005 at 11:16 PM |
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Hi
I dont think engineers reports would transfer between states, the engineers are liscensed state by state I believe.
Steve
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helbus
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| posted on November 22nd, 2005 at 11:58 PM |
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Yeah the VASS Vehicle Assesment Signatory Scheme is what we need in Vic. Certainly made everything a lot dearer in that respect, but I suppose it
makes it a bit clearer too? I think?
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seagull
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 01:25 AM |
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Well when I come over your way guys I am comming home with as many ej motor as I can .In perth we can not get a ej series motor for under $1800.00 .I
have been looking for some time now .
I payed $1850.00 for my ej20 quad cam n/a done 82K , this was with the stock ecu
Fitted this to the MISTRES trike This was 16 weeks of asking around .
Then to get on to a ej20T front cut from a 94 legacy .all the calls I made were over $2800.00 > 3K , then I found one for $1800.00 full front cut done
83K so its on the trailer now
seagull
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake
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boof2332
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 01:29 AM |
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My engineer's report was $300....Nothing to do with what he had to look at, fixed price.
Steve you are right about being licensed state to state. Every car, except newer ones , has to be blue slipped with a state transfer of rego...this is
where it would be regulated with relation to the engineers report.
Matt
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1303Steve
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 09:03 AM |
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Hi
I think every one realises that the $850 deal that Jak got on his motor is only the start of the costs involved in the conversion.
Steve
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Dasdubber
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 12:15 PM |
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Let's please keep the personal stuff out of the thread, we don't want yet another thread having to be edited/moved which provides a lot of useful
info for many people looking into such a conversion.
Cheers to those who provide the useful information, I have tossed up doing a similar conversion in the future so it is great reading about all of
this!
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ruckus
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 12:29 PM |
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I agree. Can we please stick to factual stuff as I'd hoped that this thread would answer the questions other members might have. It's basically all
just about leeching all the info from you gurus so that my life is easier
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helbus
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 12:47 PM |
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OK I found an VASS engineer that is happy to do the bus. He is big on brake upgrades, so factor that in. Luckily because the bus is pre 76 it is a bit
easier.
One of the things required to make the whole job pass straight through is keeping the entire engine package original. The ECU has to be checked and
certified by a Subaru dealer or someone who can check that it is stock un modded ECU with no error codes. They also have to do a four way gas analyser
test and make sure the o2 sensor and cat converter are fitted and are working correctly to the standard of the engine concerned. For example 1994
engine - 1994 standards.
Anything outside this adds up the costs considerably. With a stock EJ22 with 140hp he said the stock Kombi brakes will pass if they are fully working,
in top condition, correctly adjusted and new rubber hoses. The cost will be around $650 minimum.
He also said quality of workmanship and neatness always shows the job is done right, and that it is important simple things like top quality hose
clamps, shrouds, covers, neat wiring all play a factor.
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pete wood
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 03:17 PM |
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If you picked up the motor for $1k with ECU and loom, it would make the job quite alot cheaper than mine. I reckon I spent about $10k on mine, keeping
in mind that I was one of the first to do one into a car (ie, not a bus).
What will be the biggest expense is the exhaust and the loom. If you can get these done for ok money everything else will be a lot cheaper and doable.
I think Brad's figure of $5k is reasonable including certificate if you don't just spend willy nilly and use your brain. May even be worth seeing if
he can do the loom for you and get a sump/flywheel/adaptor off him at the same time. Rip off other people's good ideas for radiators and then get a
deal on the best model by going to all the local parts shops. Get the pipework done in mild steel at the local exhaust shop. It won't rust coz of the
coolent. It's a cheap way of doing it coz they buy steel in bulk and are used to bending continuous lengths.
Do yourself a favour though, before you touch anything find an engineer is not too anal. Ask him about aftermarket ECUs as well and make sure this is
a possibility later on. allows you to do some great mods down the track.
Also, I reckon twin spot superbug calipers and type 3 rear drums will be more than capable of stopping a bug. Both are quite good bolt on upgrades and
bugs weigh nothing.
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pete wood
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 04:05 PM |
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Sorry, I thought we were talking about Atmo motors. For a turbo engine I agree with you, I'd be wanting a whole lot more brakes than factory disc and
drum. I think VWCOOL is heading in the right direction there.
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helbus
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 05:29 PM |
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The engineer I spoke to today said if I had any more than the stock ECU'd EJ22 then brakes were an issue. He is prepared to pass the stock EJ22
without any brake upgrade at all, but as I said I have to provide him with a declaration from a Subaru dealership the ECU is stock, and the cat and o2
are all operational. Basically he wants fully unmodified 1994 Liberty setup.
I understand this is all relative to bus, but I would think it would get harder with the brakes based on the fact a bus weighs about 1280 kg compared
to a Beetles 850kg. I really couldn't see this engineer passing a beetle without rear brake upgrade or at least doing a brake fade test, which is
pretty brutal and cooks brakes if they are inadequate.
I did ring 6 engineers until I found one that was clued into what I was doing, and didn't harp on about other things like checking seatbelts, brake
fade tests, weighbridge tickets. This guy also knows VW's.
I reckon Ruckus should go for it, and I can pretty much guarantee this engineer will cruise it through if done right.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 05:54 PM |
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engineer reports / approvals do transfer from one state to another. One guy up here got an EA82T Baja registered with the NSW engineers report no
problems.
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pete wood
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| posted on November 23rd, 2005 at 05:54 PM |
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Yep, you need a brake fade test, and yes the brakes get hot. But I have discs/calipers that are smaller than 1500 beetle on the front of my buggy and
type 3 drum brakes on the back. It weighs around 810kgs. It passed the brake test no probs...and on a wet day too. I have since found out that the
rear brakes were nowhere near ideal (oversize drums and new shoes not bedded in, all trying to stop 31inch rear tyres). That has since been fixed with
better drums. Also, it had way too much bias on the front wheels then, another problem that has been fixed recently.
Anyway, my point is that it passed with no issues what so ever. A beetle would fair much better with smaller wheels/tyres. Just get some decent pads
for the front calipers.
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dbug2c
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| posted on February 20th, 2006 at 01:56 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
COR would do it for drive in / drive out $8800 so you should get out of it for around $5000 if you do your own labour.
If you use an EJ 22 there is no cutting of the main shell required and it wil fit under your engine lid without moving the transmission fwd.
If you used 2nd hand parts such as radiator then you can save even more. If you buy a low KM half cut then you can offload the left overs and cover
most of the cost.
I would think if you had $5000 and the time / resources and skill to fab up the few things you need you would come out of it sweat.
When you consider that the COR deal includes and heap of stuff you don't need if you do your own. Such as new water pump, seals, cam belt, radiator,
thermo, fuel pump, stainless clamps and fittings, new muffler, new cat and a warranty all of which cost money you don't have to spend if you are
doing your own.
If you go into it with under $5000 you may get away with it but you could also end up on the side of the road with issues problems.
One good thing about the conversion is that there are now heaps of people around that can provide you with advice and assistance if you need it.
I hope that helps.
Cheers,
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Sorry but who is COR??
[ Edited on 20-2-2006 by dbug2c ]
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