| [ Total Views: 2107 | Total Replies: 33 | Thread Id: 47367 ] |
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 humpty
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| posted on December 29th, 2005 at 01:58 AM |
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MEGASQUIRT'????
Has anyone had a look at the 'MEGASQUIRT' EFI kits available in the US?
http://www.msefi.com/
It seems the early versions were fuel only, but could be upgraded using either locked 009/hall effect dizzy or EDIS crankfire ignition gear that is
commonly found on Ford products and such... There is now new version that has some of the needed ignition outputs built in....
This stuff intrigues me no end, as Im in the market for a solid EFI set-up for my 2276 Turbo/intercooled project.... But what is currently available
here in Oz is costly or seems to present no end of hassles and expense to set up...
So what up with 'MEGASQUIRT'? Anyone here in Oz had a shot at it?
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on December 29th, 2005 at 06:48 AM |
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A friend of mine has used the MS system in two cars. One of which has an alfa engine that before the injection used twin dual webbers just like a
veedub. He replaced the carbs with trottle bodies from a Suzuki GSXR.
The system is quite easy to tune and the diy design allows you to tailor the modules to your needs.
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ctefeh
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| posted on December 29th, 2005 at 10:32 AM |
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Some more megasquirt stuff..
Hi,
A Guy on outerlimits4x4 megasquirted his Rangey V8 (from memory) using a variety of readily available (and relatively cheap) hardware and there's a
good thread there on the whole thing.
Ditto Uberbug over at superbeetlesonly has megasquirted his volksie.
There is an Australian forum for megasquirt as well as the official website.
I believe it's (CPU) available as either DIY or assembled. You have to wrap everything around it etc as well as get it going, but at least there's a
ton of help/info out there.
Enjoy
Ctefeh
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tassupervee
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| posted on December 29th, 2005 at 10:37 AM |
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There is a dude down here in tassie that assmebles them and charges very little.
For the life of me I cannot remember who he is but someone I knew bought one off him.
Yes, the lates MS systems have included ignition management.
The original versions did not include ignition as stand alone ignition management systems are around by the legion so they didnt bother. However, with
the popularity of these ECU's for the DIY'er demanded a complete engine management package and the designers, Bruce Bowling & Al Grippo responded in
the later releases.
The parts required only amount to a few hundred dollars (ECU only). and there is the complete shopping list available on the MS website.
http://www.megasquirt.info/
L8tr
E
[ Edited on 29/12/05 by tassupervee ]
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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humpty
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| posted on December 29th, 2005 at 11:28 AM |
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Its looking like I might try this out on my Squareback first, then if all goes well, the big one for the Ragtop...
Cheers for the headsup on the Oz Megasquirt forum...Ill have to do a search for it...
Off to do the sums....
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tassupervee
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| posted on December 29th, 2005 at 12:26 PM |
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The main thing to consider with MS systems is that they are far from a "plug 'n play" affair.
you are going to start from very scratch.
Most of the instructions will presume you are pretty familiar with EFI and electronics along with EFI tuning. If you are happy with this then I say go
fo it! There is no better satisfaction that starting from nothing and driving away!
If you find after some research, that a bit overwhelming, then I would just go and see Microtech, EMS or Woolf and spend less than 1500 on a complete
"plug and play" EFI system basically tuned and ready to drive.
I personally use both Microtech (Nissan FJ20et) and EMS (Pulsar Turbo ET) and am totally satisfied with both their setup, tuneability and value for
money
Good luck either way M8. Once injected, you will never touch a carburettor again.:thumb
L8tr
E
[ Edited on 29/12/05 by tassupervee ]
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on December 29th, 2005 at 12:30 PM |
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If you are gonna do it yourself get your hands on one of Frank "Chocco" Munday's books on EFI.
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humpty
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| posted on December 29th, 2005 at 08:36 PM |
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I have been looking to set-up my 2276 with EFI before I add the turbo and intercooler gear. After experiencing HALTEC systems on some mates VWs back
in the early 90's I swore that when I get to building the long awaited turbo VW I would only got EFI.... And I have worked with EFI systems before on
my SVX powered transporter, so I'm confident I have the basics down.
So, the way I see it...
There isn't a complete EFI setup for a aircooled VW, save for the CB kits, which are expensive and electronically at least, basic. I only want to go
with a single throttle body arrangement, with home growns plenum/manifold set-up. So if I choose to use any locally available aftermarket ECU, I have
to fabricate and retro components to get it working... While looking at the options, I spotted the MEGASQUIRT....It is basic, but adaptable, seems to
be cheapish to put together, It uses realworld/current OEM technology as far as components are concerned (which I have to source eitherway), there is
loads of support and loads of information, and seems to produce good drivabilty.And after years of messing with Dellortos in NA form I've had
enough....
Thanks for all the help guys...As always, there is so many ways to do things, so many views.
So now the time has come... I have to figure whats the best for me, my budget and my project.
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56astro
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| posted on December 29th, 2005 at 09:13 PM |
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**thinking out loud**
There seems to be a load of internet chatter revolving around tweaking the DIY efi, you know the stuff, poor idle, dies after starting, poor cold
running, etc, etc. I would be inclined to source most of the hardware, design your induction side (CBPerformance do come in handy) and oce set up then
go to a mob that sells Autronic etc and get them to tune it.
There ya have it - done once, done right.
**not thinking anymore**
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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humpty
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| posted on December 29th, 2005 at 09:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
**thinking out loud**
There seems to be a load of internet chatter revolving around tweaking the DIY efi, you know the stuff, poor idle, dies after starting, poor cold
running, etc, etc. I would be inclined to source most of the hardware, design your induction side (CBPerformance do come in handy) and oce set up then
go to a mob that sells Autronic etc and get them to tune it.
There ya have it - done once, done right.
**not thinking anymore**
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Sofar...All the chatter to the negative seems to be inregards to ppl having issues with some of the more complex aftermarket ECU's realtime tunabilty
and/or fuel delivery problems... I havent as yet found anyone who has had issues with the MEGASQUIRT setups...But it is early days yet!
I know a few ppl who have had good results with HALTEC and WOLF3D products, but all of them had to spend loads of time and money on a dyno to get it
right....I have also heard plenty of stories about poor fueling and chocked up plugs....
The MEGASQUIRT deal sounds good, but not as finely tunable as some other products...Load points seems to be one area that MEGASQUIRT seesm to drop the
ball....It has 'only' 64 points as opposed to 128 in most other ECU's...But if you believe the MEGASQUIRT blurb...This is not an issue....:o
As far as the hardware is concerned....I want to make my engine bay as clean and clear of shite as possible...Twin dual throttle bodys look tough, but
present more complexity. I dont have a problem fabrication and most of the intake systems have been sorted....Its just the ECU stuff that I need to
handle now....
Which way to go....?
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tassupervee
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| posted on December 30th, 2005 at 10:21 AM |
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Simon
Any blokes that have hassles with poor fueling and other gremlins have NOT had their systems set up and tuned corrctly in the first place or simply
have little idea what they are doing.
I dont ever listen to such stories. If you dig deeper, you usually find a host of issues and hassles with their systems such as foolishly large
injectors, sky high fuel pressures and plenty of other garbage and a total lack of any forward planning.
Ignore it.
Another furphy is that there is no setup suitable for aircooled engines........what a crock! Who ever said that?
In fact Woolf specialises in EFI setups for aircooled motorcycles. Thats where they came to fame in the first place. Woolf himself is a mad motorcycle
nut!
The only issue with them is that the coolant sensor reads cylinder head temp rather than coolant temp. They work just fine.
I have even seen guys mount the coolant temp sensor in the airflow under the cylinders. A bit arbitrary but it works well enough for warmup
purposes.
in fact, my Microtech system on the FJ20et didnt even have a temp sensor fitted to the engine when i first got it!. Of course was a bastard to start
from dead cold but ran perfectly after that!
You dont EVER have to spend shiteloads of money on dyno time. Some money sure but not shiteloades.
Microtech or EMS (for instance) come loaded with a working basic map to suit your engine.
All this needs is some final fine tuning that you can do yourself with the aid of a simple EGO readout and a wide band EGO sensor.
Megasquirt, you'd have to hunt around for some tuning tables for a similar engine but again, with care, you can get some basic running maps happening
with relative ease. And do most of the final tuning in the same way as above.
Dont be dazzled by claims that you simply cannot do without at least a load map every 25 rpm and so-on. In the real world, that is a complete load of
crap.
All those load points may loook real flash on paper or running out from some rice-boyz mouth at the Friday night "vroompssht" gathering behind the
local chuck-and-spew but are close to functionally useless at the end of the day unless you are really chasing the emissions and going for that last
ml of fuel. If thats the case i suggest we are playing with the wrong engines. Lets be realistic, krauts are pre-historic iron.
500 rpm load points are more than adequate. Perhaps a load point every rpm is desireableto somebody, somewhere but it is just a waste of time in the
real world and is largely something for the tyre kickers to impress each other with.
Dont get dazzled by apparent science!
Both my cars are performance turbo cars and I have no dramas tuning either of them on the road.
They both run on (apparently/supposedly) low-tech ECUs with wide and unfashionable 500rpm tuning points. So what?
I invite anybody who feels these systems are too agricultural for the road to come downb here and drive either one of them...anytime!
You will be pleasently surprised by their low down smoothness and tractability off boost. I imagine you will also smile when the fuckers boost up as
well LOL!
It takes time and patience but at the end of the day, what you are doing is not a lot defferent to what the dyno guy is going to do.
He will simply stick a fancy EGO sensor up the bum of the exhaust and drive the car on the dyno.
You can achieve precisel;y the same results, if not better with time and patience right up to quite high power levels. A quiet rural road with a very
long hill, lots of weight in the car, a switched on mate clicking the laptop and left foot braking are your friend! Youy dont even have to go very
fast as most of the tuning can be done in 2nd gear.
However, I would seriously re-consider your choice to go TB style injection.Nothing that wrong with them but not a lot real right about them either.
Thats why manufacturers dont use them anymore. they were fashionable once on '80's era cars!
You cannot polish a turd and will never really get away from the fuel condensation issues, variable running according to temps and so-on when you are
asking the fuel to travel all that way and around those inevitable corners.
A TB setup is really only marginally better than a well setup carb (and a damned sight more complicated) and in that respect, you would be far better
off to stick with a simple Weber, a Holley or something like that. (KISS principle)
Score yourself some T3 injector stubs, or modifiy your existing 1600 TP type ones, or whatever you are using and do yourself a favour and use an
injector per cylinder. Yes its a little morer effort/initial outlay but there is NO comparison.
A 50mm single TB from a legion of cars (about 40 bucks) from the wreckers and some easy to fabricate custom inlet tubing is all you need for a whole
new world of driving.
Sure, twin TB's and the like are certainly desireable but are NOT necessary for simplicity and importantly, reliability!
Your crank and cam position sensors are simply added externally along with a modded pulley and with the addition of a couple of coil packs off a Gen
111 dunnydore V8 (with internal trigger modules) you can throw the dizzy as far away as you can. You cant neaten up a kraut much more than ditching
the freakin dizzy and those stupi plug wires running all over it LOL!
This crank/cam trigger stuff is off-the-shelf and requires little ingenuity to adapt to the front cover of the kraut engine.
By maintaining a simple and sensible approach to your system, you can do a really nice system which is reliable, tuneable and economical and you have
the knowledge that you did it yourself. Not only that, you have a good base to tweak it later on in the (inevitable) search for more power!
Ask Ratty63. He has done his own EFI setup using the Delco EFI out of a 2.0Ltr Camira.
He fabricated his own inlet stubs which in my view, must have been a total headfuck, (I would have used bone stock T3 EFI stuff) but thats the way he
wanted to go. I'll bet he grins his silly head off every time he kicks that thing in the guts! And he is using kalmaker software.......christ! What a
pioneer! (supervee reverently tips hat at ratty63)
Have fun with your EFI setup dude!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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Whitty
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| posted on December 30th, 2005 at 10:58 AM |
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TSV, I love reading your posts. To the point, knowledgable,and not afraid to call a spade a fucking shovel. Thanks for your input champ, more of its
type needed on these forums.....
:thumb
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tassupervee
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| posted on December 30th, 2005 at 11:21 AM |
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heheheh cewl M8:blush
And thats the shortened version!!
I cant help myself sometimes!!!!!!!!!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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humpty
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| posted on December 30th, 2005 at 11:44 AM |
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Here, here...Totally agree with you Whitty!
Thanks for all your input TSV... The latter set-up I what I was leading to in my last post...I will use a central throttle body with injectors at the
castings....I have match ported IDF/DRLA manifolds that I will have to modify and I will also have to fab some plenums to fit the manifold tops, but
all with the veiw to use the central TB.
Thanks fo the tip on the coil pack...Thats exactly what I was looking int at this time....So another item down.
I have found some TIII bits here on AVD's, so I will set-up the squareback firstas trial run...When i finally get the 2276 built for my Rag, I should
then have sufficiant grasp of the ins'n'outs of this particular system....
When I mentioned the problems some ppl I know where having with they're aftermarket set-ups, perhaps I was not very clear...On the few occasions I
have heard sad tails from unsatisfied minitruckers/ricer owners (yeah, I know a few), I do believe that the so called 'professional tuner' didn't
know squat about what he was doing... On the other hand, a buddy of mine here in Freo has a very sweet running Eaton Supercharged, WBX powered LBug
running WOLF3DV4...And that has no problems at all...They did spend some time on the dyno (only a short time) and the rest was done seat'o'da pants
style. Another buddy in Sydney used the HALTEC E6 back in the early 90's on his Turbo'd Oval, and this freakin' scared the bejeesus outa me.....I
loved that car! Im kinda use to that power now :duh (my brother has a WRX powered Notchback), but I have as yet to own some my self...That sort of
drivabilty, refinement appleals to me greatly...
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Desert Moose
A.k.a.: Chris Hill
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| posted on December 30th, 2005 at 12:27 PM |
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Hi Simon,
I would (and have done myself) stick with the microtech. Sure there is better computers around but at what cost. Microtech are very helpful when you
need help and one of the cheapest on the market, I know this first hand as they sent me a new computer on Thursday before Christmas when they were on
holidays. The wiring is all marked out and is a snap to do, even I could do it. I also have a hand control and looking into a laptop setup. I took my
car undriven to laneclin on boxing day within 5 runs we had the car running well and thats only with the hand controler. Yes it needs a little dyno
time but once thats done thats it. You only need to go back to the dyno if you change your setup. anyway thats my two bits....
Simon, I think you should take a run out to midland and see Rotomotion. Can't hurt and I'm sure it will be worth your time......:thumb
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ancientbugger
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| posted on December 30th, 2005 at 07:12 PM |
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Don't know about the rest of you but I'm off to Tassie!!!!!,(just let me speak to the wife first). Wow TSV that was some answer/opinion, in fact
that was so good I'm printing it out and filiing it away somewhere secure!
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tassupervee
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| posted on January 1st, 2006 at 02:01 PM |
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Hehehehe
Your welcome netime Ancient and the other dudes!
Just let me and VolksFolks know and well be up for it LMAO.
And the offer still stands with a wheel of the turbo ute or the ET turbo.
Both of them running "low tech/unfashionable/no good old Microtech/EMS ECU's!
Vroompshht! Bwaaaahahahahah!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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ratty 63
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| posted on January 2nd, 2006 at 04:23 PM |
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...he, he, he.....
I agree with everthing that tassupervee said. Multipoint is the way to do it. Manifolds are the only hassle here, but with a little thought and a
bit of assistance from someone with a TIG welder anything is possible. I am planning on re-designing my EFI manifolds over the next couple of
months... If you do plan on using T3 manifolds, be sure that they will fit around the upright T1 style fan housing....
I have heard both good and bad stories about almost every ECU manufacturer. Most of the ECU's will do the job, it is mainly dependant on the amount
of usefull information that is supplied with the ECU and how good the after-sales backup is. After all, a flashy, expensive ECU that can do
everything, but is impossible to connect and tune is not worth anywhere near as much as a less-expensive, simple ECU with good instructions and some
friendly assistance on the other end of the phone....
R 
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humpty
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| posted on January 2nd, 2006 at 04:39 PM |
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Ill give the MS system a try on my TIII...If all goes well, Ill try it out on my Rag...
Ill only use TIII manifolds on the Notch (The square is now for sale!).
There is a nice little 1915 NA donk in the future for the Notch...
The Ragtop has a 2276 turbo intercooled engine in the works.....
I have almost gathered all the bits for that engine, but possibly will not get time
to build it until the middle of the year... In the meantime, the 'test mule' Notch will
be inflicted with this project!....
The only real problem I can see with MS, is that it doesnt support sequential injector firing and ofcourse the aforementioned load point issue....
There are loads of ppl around the world who have successfully used the MS system in similar specification to my car...
And there is loads of support online also...So I'll give it a shot.
The way I see it....I still need to get all the stuff together to support the ECU anyway, so the small outlay for the MS kit is of little
consequence...If it doesn't work that well and Im not happy with the results, I can upgrade to one of the mainstream systems...
[ Edited on 2-1-2006 by humpty ]
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ratty 63
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| posted on January 2nd, 2006 at 04:48 PM |
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...sequential injector firing is not an issue - I doubt that the average person could tell if a system was batch or sequential just by driving it....
either way, it will still be smoother and more fuel efficient than any carby system that you could use....
R
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tassupervee
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| posted on January 3rd, 2006 at 08:55 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
...sequential injector firing is not an issue - I doubt that the average person could tell if a system was batch or sequential just by driving it....
either way, it will still be smoother and more fuel efficient than any carby system that you could use....
R
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Precisely!
According to all the research i have done on sequential INJECTOR triggering, the only real benefits to be had are possibly at extremely low
RPM/throttle levels and emmisions down to the to the N'th degree.
At higher RPM, higher injector duty cycles are significantly longer than the valve open event anyway so there is no benefit up there over batch
firing.
There is a writeup on this topic on the MS website.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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humpty
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| posted on January 31st, 2006 at 11:28 PM |
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Ok... Ive done it.... I went with the top of the wozza MS II V3 PCB EMS, Relay board & cable.
The bits I still need to get my hands on are a suitable manifold arrangement (still researching), an appropriate TB (still researching), wideband O2
sensor and suitable IAT & CLT sensors (possibly GM parts). And a laptop to program this baby....
Heres a link to the kit I bought! It took just on a wwek to get here!
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-engine-management-system-wpcb...
Then all I have to do is build the engine, finish the car, get it registered and tune it!
Plough set me a load of TIII EFI bits.... I might look at fitting this EMS to my Notch, just to get some miles on it.... Cause its gonna be a while
before I get to the Ragtop and the 2276!
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lugnuts
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| posted on February 7th, 2006 at 04:03 AM |
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Hey humpty have u seen this http://www.turbobobefi.com/turbomotorold.html :thumb
http://members.shaw.ca/sharkeysgarage/wolf3dems-part1.html :thumb:thumb
[ Edited on 6-2-2006 by lugnuts ] |
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humpty
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| posted on February 7th, 2006 at 06:18 PM |
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Hey Lugnuts.... Yeah I have seen both those sites.... And found them to be very helpful, but in the end I have gone with the MS system... I have ended
up spending less that 600 Aus bux (could have been cheaper if I bought all in kit form.. I bought some components already assembled) and I have the
entire intake and EMS covered including the engine harness and sensors... I still need to purchase a wideband O2 (5 wire=$79 US) and my ignition
(EDIS4=$110US plus shipping).
So Im looking at a total all up cost of under a grand, on the car and running. One ting I should mention is I have gone with a laptop programable rig,
so will have to purchase a PC lappy....Pretty cheap from what Ive seen.... It has to be Windows 95 or later compatible and run a serial port.... If I
picked up a USB PC then i would have to get an adapter.
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76bug
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| posted on February 8th, 2006 at 09:19 AM |
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wot type of throttle bodies are u running? the $1000 is just for the mega squirt system right? im setting up some zx12 motor bike throttle bodies for
my efi setup
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humpty
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| posted on February 8th, 2006 at 03:26 PM |
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The grand is all in..... That absolutely everything I needed to make up my intake....ECU to O2!
Quad TB's look hard and all, and they would more than likely provide a slight improvement ova single TB in topend performance if I were to stick with
a N/A engine, but I have gone for a single TB (Falcon with TPS and IAC, possibly too big, but it was cheap!) as Im gonna turbocharge and intercool
it... A single TB will make it loads ezr, with no fiddly linkage to worry about, simpler pressure tube tract, and plenty of room around the heads for
the injectors and rails...
All the other aftermarket ECU's would have set me back 1300 bux plus. Then I would have to source all the sensors, ignition, intake, TB, plumbing and
O2 stuff on top of that.... You'd have to be looking at close to 2K for your complete intake....
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lugnuts
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| posted on February 12th, 2006 at 04:40 AM |
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http://www.cevw.com/projects9-2.html Clean install :thumb
Dont listen to what they say,just watch what they do.Oh yeah ive NEVER finished anything ive started.:o
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humpty
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| posted on February 12th, 2006 at 02:49 PM |
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Cheers for that LG... I found some those images at another source....
It was interesting to know who actually made the intakes....
What would be even more interesting is to find out if there is any advantages to that style if intake....
There is another shot of the plenums, that looks pretty clear....
It does not look like they run any kind of stack arrangement.... And I do like the look...
I of know a guy who fabbed his own set-up that was very similar, but he also had velocity stakes inside the plenums....
Does any one have any info in that regard?
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tassupervee
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| posted on February 12th, 2006 at 07:48 PM |
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I dont know about any advantages utillising a throttle body injection system with all that volume above the valves tho.
TB style injection is nothing much more than a fancy electronic carb arrangement along with the vagaries of inconsistent fuelling largely due to fuel
condensation and slow gas velocities associated with the large internal surface areas and direction changes of those beautifully made manifolds in
there.
That arrangement woould be nicely suited to a turbo/supercharger setup with injectors set right above the ports like just about every other EFI engine
built in the last 20 years. Multi-point or batch fired. TB EFI can be made to work satisfactorily bhut really, that TB arrangement went out a
looooonng time ago.
Im at a loss as to why they would bother adding those snazzy plenums above the inlets tho.
Christ that thing wold be a pig when its cold thats for sure.
I imagine it probably originally came from an old turbo/carb setup and modified later to the TB setup.
I reckon throttle response would probably be worse than a single carb!!!
Sure looks nice tho! YeeHar!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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56astro
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| posted on February 12th, 2006 at 08:03 PM |
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Are u sure that CE set-up is a TB injection??
The fuel rails are on the intake manifolds aren't they.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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