| [ Total Views: 1609 | Total Replies: 24 | Thread Id: 54366 ] |
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 humpty
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| posted on July 16th, 2006 at 10:08 PM |
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This is gonna cause some problems!
Fellas.... I have a question here that will surely upset some people..... But thats what happens with opinions!
Anyway.... Some of you guys may know that Im building my long awaited street turbo engine.... But i have been getting an itch to race a little harder
with this car....
Next year, when my study is over (for a while at least!) I plan to build the 2276 for my ragtop... I have been collecting the parts for this engine
for a few years now and I have everything I need to complete it.....
But what I have been thinking of doing is building this engine as more of a drag engine, than a street donk.... the longblock will remain the same,
but the induction side may take a change....
I have all the bits to build nice tidy blow through EFI/intercooled street turbo engine, but with some minor changes I could just go more lowtech and
build a drawthrough intake....
I know the Volkomen guys (among others) in Melbourne build'em old school and get great results and I know all the 'Woolongong Wizards' have gone
the intercooled/EFI route, and produced very nice fast road cars, but I still see all the top street turbo cars are doing it drawthrough.... Can the
HiTech way get me there or is there a reason why all the top street turbos are sticking with the old style set-ups?
Now I know the drawthrough deal will get me a more powerfull drag type engine and the blowthrough will far more streetable, but really I have to ask
myself....
'What sort of street car do I really want?'
I want a balls-out V8 killer that can be street driven.... Thats what I want!... potential for 10's! (if I can learn to drive that fast! :-)....
Thats what I want!.... I dont really care about economy, but reliablity is important....
So guys, what do you 'forced induction' pro's think?.... Which way is best to get the best bang for buck?
Tough question I know..... Call me a dickhead, I can take it.... I know this question is hard to answer.... But Im willing to listen to all ideas,
before I build this engine.... I can go either way... But either way.... I want to got fast!
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on July 16th, 2006 at 11:00 PM |
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Hi Humpty
How long do you think a carby fed non intercooled street turbo will last, also how nice will it be to drive. Leighs 2007cc turbo can be driven on the
street by the proverbial little old lady but do the numbers on the strip. Look at Wayne Penroses results, he has said in the past that his car was
very streetable with EFI and intercooling.
Dont live in the past when you have the chance to build something 21st century that will last.
Steve
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malcolm
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| posted on July 16th, 2006 at 11:32 PM |
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go EFI,intercooling but go with Altronics or Motec there not that exspensive when you throw 8to12k at a motor.
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humpty
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 12:39 AM |
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I hear what you are saying Steve, and I have always held the same opinion, but I have not seen a really fast HiTec street turbo bug on Oz.... Anyone
(!) can do 12's these days and that most of the HiTec cars have done as far as I know..... Tell me Im wrong, but why has all these hi-dollar dubs
only done average numbers?... I know most of them are streetcars first and they are more inclinded to circuit/hillclimb work than drag racing, but why
has there not been a seriously fast drag car that has built around this HiTec concept?..... No disrespect here, Im not trying to piss people off... I
have been for rides in a few of these cars (Keith's old oval and Shimo's bug) and they are freakin' awesome street machines that drive really well
and can do it all day long, but all the really fast street/strip cars that I know of do it the old way.... Im not saying its better, but I would like
to see some hardcore results.... I would like to know, how often these LowTec Dubs get a rebuild, what sort of driving so they actually do and why one
method is more popular than the other....
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humpty
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 01:13 AM |
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I have already got my EFI management sorted.... I've gone with the Megasquirt MSIIv3 (with boost control) and the EDIS crank fire ignition.... Its
all realtime laptop programable.....So at least that part is sorted if I go that way....!!!
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dragvw2180
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 02:45 AM |
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Hello everyone,
I just got back from dynoing the turbo motor at Dave and Judy Kawells,astonished me what I learned.All the hype you hear and read about is
bogus,They will tell you any and everything you want to know about turbocharging a VW.They have not done a few turbo motors,but thousands,and dynoed
them, so they KNOW what works and does not.You have to look at the turbo setup,mine has 8.2 to 1 compression,how many street motors are that low?So my
answer to you is,a turbo is absolutely streetable with the right parts and common sense.My motor is a 2275,look at my post,all the externals are
Kawell,Dave guided me through the internal mods and he likes to help people.The biggest reason people use a draw through is cost,about 500.00 for carb
and manifold(usdollrs),compared to fuel injection.I am no expert,but email Dave@KAWELLRACING.com ,he is one
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dangerous
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 06:41 AM |
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I will get in early before this turns into a crisis.
The difference with all these comparisons is that the EFI setup MUST be tuned and dynoed so the results should be better.
The carby setups generally get bolted onand forgotten, and so the results never give the potential that IS there.
If you tune the thing properly, the only advantages will be :
the intercooling will allow you to run less octane for a given boost,
the atomisation using EFI nozzles will give better drivability,
The cylinder head will flow more air with larger runner sizes that an air-only manifold can use, like an EFI system.
There are many things that other people will bring up, but I would say,
use the EFI and intercooler and what ever you decide,
tune that sucker properly and only use the correct octane fuel for what you intend to do.
I think that a 10 second carby turbo is going to need the best racing fuel you can buy, (10 dollars per litre?) and methanol is no good for a carby
turbo draw thru because of the volume going thru the compressor wheel slows it down.
I think you could potentially do the EFI intercooled 2276 with pump fuel and 10second power with high teens boost.
I look at it like this, a carby 10 second engine is a waste of an EFI intercooled 9 second engine.
Of course this does not factor the initial expense or racing fuel bill.
Both types will need dyno time, or you may as well throw you parts in the bin.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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shiftyvw
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 09:38 AM |
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Its not turbo related but its something to think about, I read an article on EFI vs Carbs for the mountain motor IHRA prostockers and i think it was
by sonny leonard and he was quoted as saying he cannot match the peak horsepower of his carb setups with efi yet but the efi car is faster on the
track and revs quicker through the rev range.
If youve got the efi gear you may as well use it and keeping a draw through setup hidden isnt as easy.
testing 1 2 3...
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dragvw2180
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 11:37 AM |
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I completely agree with everything Dangerous and Shifty said,hell,I wish I had EFI,I'd surely be using it.I would expect 250- 300 plus hp in street
trim,400 w/race gas and 17psi boost on your 2275 motor.I'd like a ride in that combo on the street one time myself,hahahah I have never used
programmable EFI on a VW,does yours have a boost sensitive enrichment system to richen it up under boost?
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humpty
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 12:04 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dragvw2180
I completely agree with everything Dangerous and Shifty said,hell,I wish I had EFI,I'd surely be using it.I would expect 250- 300 plus hp in street
trim,400 w/race gas and 17psi boost on your 2275 motor.I'd like a ride in that combo on the street one time myself,hahahah I have never used
programmable EFI on a VW,does yours have a boost sensitive enrichment system to richen it up under boost?
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Yes it does.... And loads more possiblities!.... If you want to know more check out http://www.diyautotune.com/..... Its very cheap EFI and there are plenty of very siccessful turbo Dub installs on
Shoptalk... Imagine rolling a 400hp deal on the street... That would be mad!
Thanks for all the comments here, it is really appreciated.... Thats what these forums are for... Good solid feedback on ideas and questions from
'people in the know'..... I have absolutely no experience with boosted dubs and I have witnessed what happens at the strip with turbo cars for
years.... Never have I seen a HiTec Dub pull the numbers a LoTec dub does all the time.... but there is a cost... As dragvw2180 stated, people like
the Kawell's have been doing it for a VERY long time with good results. But Dave nailled the critical point here..... To do what I want, with the car
and driveline package I have, my 2275/EFI/intercooled/turbo engine will do it with pump gas..... It seems, that there are few drawthrough engines that
can match that!....
So I guess my challenge then is to built a HiTec engine (in my ratty ragtop dub) with potential to eat up the track and get good mileage on pump gas
to boot!
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71superbug
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 01:02 PM |
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simon, ian swinkles of this forum has had pretty good success with turbo injected dub engines, i mean, getting a 1641 that is good for low 13/high
12's is no easy feat. and now he has his turbo 2332cc injected engine.
should maybe talk to him about it.
Anthony
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dragvw2180
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 02:19 PM |
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If I could make two very important suggestions,Buy the best rod bolts you can afford,ARP has a new rod bolt that equals the Carillo bolts,it's
called 625+ ,Summit sells them part # 300-6708.The other thing is head bolts,I used RACEWARE,my heads did not lift on the dyno under very extreme
boost(10 MM).I want to see everyone do good with the VW's out there .I was also told that the new SCAT rods are very impressive,have 3/8 bolts if you
have not already purchased rods.
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humpty
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 04:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 71superbug
simon, ian swinkles of this forum has had pretty good success with turbo injected dub engines, i mean, getting a 1641 that is good for low 13/high
12's is no easy feat. and now he has his turbo 2332cc injected engine.
should maybe talk to him about it.
Anthony
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I am familiar with Ian's car and its development, but as I stated earlier.... No one has yet has made a serious strip contender out of a HiTec
dub.... If anyone can do it, I'd suspect that Ian's new set-up has the potential, but not with that car as it is set-up currently.... The engine has
the power, no problem there, but how that translates at the strip is another story.... I truely believe it can and will be done and most like by
Ian..... But that car is ste-up like most of the others I have mentioned... As a very sound streetcar, that goes around corners and stops on a
dime.... the next challenge is to also make it cut a very fast path down a drag strip as so many Cal-Look style (read: Old School tech) street/strip
cars do..... One thing is for sure, I will be following Ian's progress closely, as his driveline combo is very similar to the one I have in
development....
| Quote: | Originally
posted by dragvw2180
If I could make two very important suggestions,Buy the best rod bolts you can afford,ARP has a new rod bolt that equals the Carillo bolts,it's
called 625+ ,Summit sells them part # 300-6708.The other thing is head bolts,I used RACEWARE,my heads did not lift on the dyno under very extreme
boost(10 MM).I want to see everyone do good with the VW's out there .I was also told that the new SCAT rods are very impressive,have 3/8 bolts if you
have not already purchased rods.
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Thanks for the heads-up on rod bolts.... The rods I have are the 5.5" CroMo CB Race Rods with ARP2000 bolts, which I hope are up to the task, but as
yet I haven't finalised the head studs.... Thanks for the tip there dragvw2180.... Can I ask where you got the RACEWARE studs from?
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Turbo54
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 06:04 PM |
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Just Wait, the Debiasi's here in Sth Aus have got something coming up that should run your times and yes its EFI. Before this he had a 1915 that did
a 11.88 on a 38 degree day so the times could of been lower. Yes it was very quick and daily driven.
You'll never look back once EFI.
T54
C'mon kids gather round,
there's a new sensation hitting town,
It's moving straight, low to the ground,
it'll pick you up when your feeling down.
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greenman
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 06:58 PM |
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Hey Humpty,
Did you get my email regarding the arrival of your next shipment?
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dragvw2180
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| posted on July 17th, 2006 at 10:39 PM |
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What I replaced was arp 2000 rod bolts,changed to the 625+ because Dave Kawell suggested it.I bought the head studs directly from RACEWARE,it was the
same price from other venders ,but I got to talk with the guy who made them.If possible,get Dave BUTLER to set your rods up with a stretch guage,very
important
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71superbug
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| posted on July 18th, 2006 at 01:56 PM |
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yeah i agree about what you were saying in regards to ians car but from talking to him lately seems he is only interested in making it go fast in a
straight line now so i look forward to the progress he has with that car.
Anthony
[ Edited on 18-7-2006 by 71superbug ]
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humpty
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| posted on July 20th, 2006 at 02:18 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dragvw2180
What I replaced was arp 2000 rod bolts,changed to the 625+ because Dave Kawell suggested it.I bought the head studs directly from RACEWARE,it was the
same price from other venders ,but I got to talk with the guy who made them.If possible,get Dave BUTLER to set your rods up with a stretch guage,very
important
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Thanks for the tip yet again dragvw2180.... I will have to get on to ordering somemore gear!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 71superbug
yeah i agree about what you were saying in regards to ians car but from talking to him lately seems he is only interested in making it go fast in a
straight line now so i look forward to the progress he has with that car.
Anthony
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I look forward to that too.... I know it can be done.... And Iain certainly has some engineering skill... Amazing stuff he's done there....
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Boostn
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| posted on July 24th, 2006 at 12:32 PM |
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VOLLKOMMEN ART
O.K
I tried to not get involved in this one because so many people have an opinion about this one. I have done both combo's ,street and race draw
throughs with a webers and with Holleys. Draw throughs with E.F.I. Blow throughs with carbs, E.F.I, with and without intercoolers, water to air
intercoolers, NOS, and different fuels.
Being a very strong believer of D/through I built an E.F.I D/through engine with extra injectors at the ports. After tuning the D/through on the dyno,
I switched to B/through and re-mapped it. WOW, an extra 20 kw at the wheels at the same boost, and a much sweeter sound. So yes more in power E.F.I.
BUT it needs to be non restrictive, in manifolds, pipes, intercoolers and throttle bodies. So to do it all right it costs and it takes a lot of tuning
to get it right. If your thinking of using things off other cars to keep it affordable and it's NQR your wasting your time, you need to do it right
and spend the money on the good stuff.(some factory stuff is very good and useable) If your not going to go big, a D/through done for much less and
properly will blow your doors away! So if it means going fast and not delaying it for another year, go D/through and have some fun.(like you said
look how fast the Yanks are going) If you set up the fuel system right, a D/through is very reliable and the fuel going through the turbo cools the
hot compressed air. I also inject methanol through the carb on boost. In B/through the heat is like a blow torch and you are relying on the
intercooler to take the heat out, and as I said earlier, if it's not done properly your in trouble. Plus you can not just inject methanol into it,
you must use a better fuel. It all depends how much power you need to make, some people just think they can turn up the boost and run numbers and are
quick to criticise D/through, but how many people speak from experience?
VOLLKOMMEN ART
nick@vollkommenart.com
Speed and Style
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humpty
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| posted on July 24th, 2006 at 01:08 PM |
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Thank you Nick for your input.... I was hoping you'd have something to say.... You guys are the Oz leaders in the D/Through domain, there is no
doubt.... Total respect for what you have done..... A few of the 'in the know' US guys I know have been raggin' on me about going the HiTec route
for sometime, and now that Im finally at the stage of having most of the components together and ready to build, I am questioning, which way to go....
I see the value in both directions. I guess the real quetsion still needs to be anwsered.... "What do I really want from the car?".... The truthful
reply is a compromise over 'power V drivability V reliability' issues.... I like to go around corners from time to time and I like to hard in a
straightline too..... This car is mostly a 'fair weather' car in that is will be street driven most of the time, but with the intent of throwing it
down a drag strip (I have my SubiNotch for corners)..... I could go the way you have done right now and built an 'LoTec' (no disrepect  ) and got hell fast with max effect, or I could stick to the OG plan and go
'HiTec'..... I guess Ill have to figure this one out on my own.....
Thanks for all the input here guys..... I knew this would stir things up a bit as it is a very contentious issue, but one that I feel clears a few
points/misconseptions up, and one that was handled very well by all who contributed....
Cheers....
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dragvw2180
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| posted on July 24th, 2006 at 10:44 PM |
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The guys at PARADISE run EFI on their dragster,if they could get the same power and dependibility from d/through,I am sure they would have it on the
paridise express.They run TURBO,EFI,And alot of NOS!!!!
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malcolm
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| posted on July 24th, 2006 at 11:50 PM |
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I think they were using the motec exhaust anilyser this was a couple of years ago.
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Boostn
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| posted on July 25th, 2006 at 12:33 AM |
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VOLLKOMMEN ART
If you have all the parts to go E.F.I then do it, you will make more power have better driveability and better economy. My latest project is E.F.I.
and I love the technology and options. But I will not say a bad word about D/through. Less plumbing, cost, tunning,weight,and time with that old skool
grunt!
I think that with B/through E.F.I. you MUST run a water to air intercooler. So that meens a box with water, pumps, coolers, plumbing and all that
space. BUT it's worth it in the end, so if you can be bothered, do it.
VOLLKOMMEN ART
nick@vollkommenart.com
Speed and Style
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humpty
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| posted on July 25th, 2006 at 12:54 AM |
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Yeah... I have the intercooler options under study right now... I have a R Spec (Gold box) RS Liberty intercooler and radiator here, but Im looking at
the PWR 'Log' cooler too. Julian Edgar also has some interesting ideas I am looking at..... I feel you are correct with the drag applications as
they at this moment... The 'simple' options gives you max for minimum buck.... But at the cost of economy, drivability and possibly longevity. EFI
(& intercooled) engines take longer to build and may need more work to tune, but when its all said and done, the advantages make the hassle worth
while.... And I don't mind a 'little' fabrication.... What I can't do myself, can be done by some very good mates, I have the idea's and don't
mind the research.... I just have to wait until my studies are over and I can get back to that 2276.... Got plenty to do.... A straight axle
conversion for a mate, and IRS conversion for my Notch and and EJ25 conversion for that and I really must finish that EG33 powered Transporter!...
Aaahhh the challenges we set!
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seagull
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| posted on July 25th, 2006 at 02:14 AM |
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Amen brother
seagull
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake
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