| [ Total Views: 2052 | Total Replies: 32 | Thread Id: 57311 ] |
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 SirDelton
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 posted on September 30th, 2006 at 04:21 PM |
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Which Gearbox.. The great debate..
The plan is to have a street driven Kitcar which is able to be used on the Race Track (NOT RACING) on club events.
I want it to be fast & able to handle a Drag run or two without blowing any of the drive train apart.
What I have is a EJ20TT & adapter plate to run a 2Lt Kombie box. But No Kombie box ATM..
After talking to people a lot of them have been saying the gear ratios in the Kombie boxes make the cars scream there heads off at 110Km/hr. This
maybe great if I was looking for a Drag Car but that isn't what this car is being built for so now I'm thinking this may not be the best option.
If I was to use a 2Lt Kombie box & the Tyre Dia of the 20inch rims I have been told will be anywhere from 630mm to 666mm depending on Tyre brand used.
So based on this what kind of revs will this thing be pulling @ 110Km/h?
What is the Max speed possible (If redline was possible) in top gear? (Sorry no idea what a Subaru Redline is.)
What other option do I have for Gearboxes with better Ratio's? I don't want to spend $10000 Plus on a gearbox so please offer options way under
that. (If there are any.)
Thanks
Darren Baker
I'm hoping to do it right 1st time around even if it means I have to wait longer to drive this thing..
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rocknrob
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| posted on September 30th, 2006 at 06:22 PM |
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At 110 with 666mm dia wheels you would be doing about 3200-3300...dunno what redline is for the turbo but the 2.2 is 6500 so it would do around 220 at
redline...in theory
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rocknrob
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| posted on September 30th, 2006 at 06:26 PM |
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Of course seeing this is for a kit car the best box would be my 2WD suby box with midmount engine
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SirDelton
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| posted on October 1st, 2006 at 08:27 AM |
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Anybody else?
So I'm stuck for the Kombie option then?
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koolkarmakombi
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| posted on October 2nd, 2006 at 07:49 AM |
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Kombi boxes can be built real strong, the dude from indian drives his with a bower v6 in it. Your car is not that heavy so the launch will be easier.
This disclaimer does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either myself, my company, my friends, or my dog: don't quote me on that; don't
quote me on anything; this disclaimer is subject to change without notice; text is slightly enlarged to show detail; resemblance to actual persons,
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upon request; your mileage may vary; no substitutions are allowed; for a limited time only while supplies last; offer void where prohibited; this
disclaimer is provided "as is" without any warranties expressed or implied
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on October 3rd, 2006 at 06:13 PM |
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An Lbug gearbox is the go. They are just as strong as the 2l kombi stock and the 3.88 ring and pinion is a much better final drive ratio for the turbo
motor. It allows you to use the torque of the engine rather than having to rev it up like an Atmo motor. To give you an idea, all the guys drag racing
turbo beetles in the states use the Lbug internals and the 3.88 ring and pinion. It's the strongest diff ratio VW ever made for a beetle. If you
treat it with respect it will last for ages and it bolts straight into the type 3 chassis. The kombi box is a pain for a whole bunch of reasons and
it's only worth putting in a car is you want to run tall offroad tyres or put 300plus horsepower through it, in which case you need to have it built
up for strength anyway.
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SirDelton
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| posted on October 3rd, 2006 at 09:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
An Lbug gearbox is the go.
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How can I find out what box is in my car?
How can I tell a LBug box from a Std one? (ie a 2lt Kombi has 6 ribs etc..)
Where do I find them?
On a side note I was thinking of rebuilding a Kombi Box with a better Final Ratio so where is the best place to get prices for gears syncro's &
gaskets?
Cheers
Darren..
I need to move quickly as there is a 2lt Kombie box that will require rebuilding on ebay now.. Finishing @ 10pm tomorrow
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pete wood
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| posted on October 3rd, 2006 at 10:00 PM |
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an Lbug box is a beetle gearbox. it is and IRS (cv flanges on the outputs) and has one sideplate on the diff housing. the other side plate is cast
into the housing. earlier boxes had bolt on side plates on both sides. that's the principle way of identifying them. there were some late type 3
boxes that came with single side plates too, but the shift rod is drilled on the bottom instead of on the top, although some people say they had both.
Best way to be sure the box is an Lbug unit is to pull it out of an Lbug (curved windscreen,mapherson strut) at a wreckers. Should set you back
between $150-400 second hand.
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malcolm
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| posted on October 3rd, 2006 at 11:34 PM |
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your putting in an ej20tt motor give Albins off road a ring and get a gear set.
don,t rely on the gearbox to support the motor have a look at how porsche mount the motor and gearbox.
you are saving money on the motor soput some extra $$$ into the gearbox
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 4th, 2006 at 09:14 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
An Lbug gearbox is the go. They are just as strong as the 2l kombi stock
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I seriously doubt that. You just need to put them side by side to see the difference.
I don't think the drag racers would use any standard internals.
The more serious Australian drag racers use kombi boxes.
If you have Excel 2000 or better than download this spreadsheet, it will help you figure out all your gear ratios and rpm in each gear.
http://www.offroadvw.net/exceldyno/index.htm
I have a 6-rib kombi box with a factory 4-spider diff and albins 0.70:1 ratio 4th for highway work.
Albins gears ; http://www.albinsgear.com.au/
This is the best discussion on gears and strength I have found;
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Dunes/9702/transtalk.html
Being in Brisbane, I suggest you talk to Leon at Leons Motors in Salisbury;
http://www.phoenixtrikes.com.au/sitemap.html
Leon built my gearbox.
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pete wood
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| posted on October 4th, 2006 at 12:03 PM |
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you seriously doubt everything wes :P
A whole hoard of people in sydney are using slightly built up Lbug boxes behind tweaked EJ20t motors. Boof and Jak are just 2 of them.
The man who told me stock Lbug boxes are as strong as stock 2l boxes is the man who has a blown V6 in his kombi. He doesn't talk crap. It's true
that kombi boxes can be built up stronger than beelte boxes but that has more to do with the housing than the gears. The 3.88 is the strongest beetle
ring and pinion available.
Yes, lots of drag racers in Aust are using kombi boxes but most of the yanks are using type1 swingaxle boxes, like for instance our own Wayne Penrose
in his turbo oval, and they cope fine too.
Again, I say, use a kombi box for ballistic power (which he won't want in a street car) or tall tyres (better ratios), but an Lbug box will cope fine
if you build it right, ie superdiff and albins gears, and the taller ratios are much better for the torquey turbo motor.
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SirDelton
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| posted on October 4th, 2006 at 12:56 PM |
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Thanks Guys this is all good from my point of view.. :thumb
I have phoned "Leon's Motors"
This is what I have been told by him..
The Kombi Box is the strongest, closely followed by the LBug box.
Price with both boxes is very similar if you want to rebuild & Change ratios.
With a Kombi 2lt box with "albins gears"
1st 3:1
2nd 2:1
3rd 1.2:1
4th 0.7:1
Would cost @ $2000 for the gears.
To have the box rebuilt $1300.
So lets say $3500- plus surply cost of a 2lt box.
Now I have also been told there are "CITROEN 5 speeds" available which the person believes to be smaller then the Kombi box.
So does anybody here have any knowledge of them?
Cheers
SD
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
An Lbug gearbox is the go. They are just as strong as the 2l kombi stock
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I seriously doubt that. You just need to put them side by side to see the difference.
I don't think the drag racers would use any standard internals.
The more serious Australian drag racers use kombi boxes.
If you have Excel 2000 or better than download this spreadsheet, it will help you figure out all your gear ratios and rpm in each gear.
http://www.offroadvw.net/exceldyno/index.htm
I have a 6-rib kombi box with a factory 4-spider diff and albins 0.70:1 ratio 4th for highway work.
Albins gears ; http://www.albinsgear.com.au/
This is the best discussion on gears and strength I have found;
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Dunes/9702/transtalk.html
Being in Brisbane, I suggest you talk to Leon at Leons Motors in Salisbury;
http://www.phoenixtrikes.com.au/sitemap.html
Leon built my gearbox.
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malcolm
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| posted on October 4th, 2006 at 09:08 PM |
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the renault and citroen boxes are longer than vdub
u2u desert moose on this forum about the french boxes.
have a look under a couple of my project post I think clearancing for a porsche 915 box and you,ll see a pic of the renault box.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 09:04 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
A whole hoard of people in sydney are using slightly built up Lbug boxes behind tweaked EJ20t motors. Boof and Jak are just 2 of them.
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Yeah but they blow them up too, so I wouldn't say they were a good example :P
The US drag-racers use swingaxles so they don't have CV's and stuff to break. There isn't a stock part in their swingaxles.
Taller R&P's are always stronger than lower ratio R&P's. That is why 3.88:1 is the strongest, it is the tallest.
Read that transtalk page, it is good. From transtalk;
| Quote: | IRS trannies with
the Prefix code of AT have a 3.88 R&P, bigger and better(10 tooth) spider gears, a stronger 1st gear(3.78 ratio), and a wider 1st/2nd shifting fork.
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| Quote: | From 76-82?, the
case was changed again to the 6-rib design. These transmissions are sometimes called the 091. These are the toughest. They have a
3.78 first gear, but it is even wider and stronger. They also have a 091 differential section(bigger spider and end gears).
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But yes the Lbug is a good box, but just don't get confused and think it's as strong as the 6-rib stock.
I've spoken to Leon alot, he knows his stuff. He built a L-bug box with a special extra strong first gear and other tweaks for a EJ20T powered type 3
notchback years ago, before Jak or the other guys were running EJ20T's. So there is no doubt they can survive.
Talk to customoffroad about the Renault box. They have a Baja with one getting fitted. It is bigger, needs a special shifter design for the
side-shift, and is generally a pain. It is also a truck gearbox so has a really really low first. It's like a 4-speed box with a crawler gear, which
is pretty pointless.
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1303Steve
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 09:10 AM |
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Hi
Even a 6 rib is a compromise, dicky shifter and gears are weakened when street ratios are used.
This is why I bit the bullet and went G50, its not for the faint hearted.
Steve
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pete wood
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 09:52 AM |
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why stop there, we are obviously talking money no object now, so he could buy a hewland, or a medeola. :o
SD, you need to figure out what budget you have and how much power you want the car to make. Build/buy your gearbox based on that. I'd suggest a
built up kombi or beetle box, but it's up to you. I think you've got enough info at this point. You can summarize it like this.
1303 Lbug box - cheap with good ratios but not super strong.
091 2l kombi box - a bit stronger but the ratios are not so good for street tyres.
Renault - strong bad ratios and getting exy.
Porsche - more exy still but very strong.
Mendeola/hewland - very exy but very very strong.
Keep in mind that everything but the beetle box involves some stuffing around to get the shifter mechanism right. And trust me, that can be very
frustrating.
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pete wood
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 10:27 AM |
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you might like to read this thread and see what Dangerous says.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=57042
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 11:26 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Even a 6 rib is a compromise, dicky shifter and gears are weakened when street ratios are used.
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I don't agree. My shifter works just fine, no different to a beetle box.
Yes the ratio's are low, but if you use albins gears then it doesn't matter what the stock ratios's are.
And the custom ratio's seem to be plenty strong.
As I said in this post about gearboxes;
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=53763
"Aaron (quickcamper) runs albins gears in his 500HP 20B turbo wheelstanding kombi. If they survive that then they are pretty good"
I heard it was at the warwick weekend pulling wheelstands too. From what I heard the only thing it broke was an axle which sheared off.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 11:45 AM |
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I use a Rhino Case, Albins gears and a Quaife Diff (4.125). Was built in 1994 and has now lasted for over 1000 launches.
No probs with Albins gears !
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koolkarmakombi
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 01:01 PM |
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Also give Lawrence from German Autos a call. He has the no 1 plate for the open series off road buggy type beasties. Should see the billet gearbox
inside that puppy. Worth $$$ but if you want a bullet proof box he also knows his stuff.
fwiw
kkk
This disclaimer does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either myself, my company, my friends, or my dog: don't quote me on that; don't
quote me on anything; this disclaimer is subject to change without notice; text is slightly enlarged to show detail; resemblance to actual persons,
living or dead, is unintentional and coincidental; dry clean only; do not bend, fold, or mutilate; anchovies or jalapenos added to this disclaimer
upon request; your mileage may vary; no substitutions are allowed; for a limited time only while supplies last; offer void where prohibited; this
disclaimer is provided "as is" without any warranties expressed or implied
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SirDelton
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 01:28 PM |
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Thanks Guys..
I'm going to go with the Kombi Box with new gear ratio's.
I'm a Fitter & Turner by trade & have rebuilt many industry tpye gearboxes etc but never a Car Gearbox.
Is there anything that would stop me from rebuilding a Kombi box @ home?
ie One off special tools required.
A Press & Lathe are no problems.
Where is the best place to order Albin Gears from & Kombi box rebuild spares?
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gull
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 02:30 PM |
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pauls gear box has just landed from the states
kombi 1800 with albens gear set
I have a stock 1800 gear box here
seagull
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 05:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SirDelton
Where is the best place to order Albin Gears from
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I bought mine direct from Albins. I posted the website link above.
If you need gearbox spares too then you might be best buying the spares and gears through Leon.
You will need special tools. Look through a VW manual and you will see the special tools. I think you need special tools to hold the pinion and remove
the nut on the shaft, some pinion bearings need a special tool to remove. Best to look at a manual and see for yourself.
Industrial gearboxes are generally somewhat easier, as they generally don't change gears. To get a car box right you need to adjust a lot of things
correctly.
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1303Steve
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| posted on October 5th, 2006 at 11:52 PM |
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Hi
Wes, its when you go to the modified gears to get taller ratios that you will find a weakness in the gears, Albins or not.
Peter, Im not talking money no object, my old box in my yellow bug was worth $6,000, 4 sets of Albins and a Quaife etc ands it still would have had
limitations, I considered going with a 6 rib but my very respected gearbox builder talked me out of it. My G50 was $5,000.
Steve
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 6th, 2006 at 06:58 AM |
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Strength is a relative term I guess.
$5000 for a G50 sounds like a good price.
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rocknrob
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| posted on October 6th, 2006 at 07:12 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SirDelton
Thanks Guys..
I'm going to go with the Kombi Box with new gear ratio's.
I'm a Fitter & Turner by trade & have rebuilt many industry tpye gearboxes etc but never a Car Gearbox.
Is there anything that would stop me from rebuilding a Kombi box @ home?
ie One off special tools required.
A Press & Lathe are no problems.
Where is the best place to order Albin Gears from & Kombi box rebuild spares?
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Congrats on the ebay box...does the other one set a new record price?($760):o
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SirDelton
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| posted on October 6th, 2006 at 07:47 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by rocknrob
| Quote: | Originally
posted by SirDelton
Thanks Guys..
I'm going to go with the Kombi Box with new gear ratio's.
I'm a Fitter & Turner by trade & have rebuilt many industry tpye gearboxes etc but never a Car Gearbox.
Is there anything that would stop me from rebuilding a Kombi box @ home?
ie One off special tools required.
A Press & Lathe are no problems.
Where is the best place to order Albin Gears from & Kombi box rebuild spares?
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Congrats on the ebay box...does the other one set a new record price?($760):o
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Thanks.. Now I have to start thinking about the rebuilt & how I'm going to mount everything into this Car..
Yes $760.. WTF!!! I guess the guy up the coast is still celebrating as I haven't had a reply from him..
He was probably thinking well I should get $600 for both box..
I can't believe I managed to get the 2nd one for only 305 after the insane bidding on the 1st one..
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dannyboyrulesman2
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| posted on October 11th, 2006 at 07:35 PM |
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Recommended Gearbox
Hey everyone as you can all tell I'm new to aussieveedubbers.
I have a 1972 superbug which has been done up pretty nice (respray, flared guards, whale-tail, 1835 motor etc.)
I find that the standard Type 1 gearbox is just far too undergeared and the engine has to rev too high for relatively low speeds.
Sometime in the near future I wish to do a subaru conversion (EJ22 or simlar) probably under 200HP but there will be no point if the engine still has
to rev just as hard.
What are the common solutions you guys have found regarding transmissions and subaru conversions. Research on the net shows that the Type 1 trans can
be beefed up to handle the power but will it also be geared higher? Are the Rancho rebuilt boxes worthwhile? Are the critical components to look for
welded 3-4 gears and superdiff etc?
The gene berg 5 speed kit looks awesome but expensive as well. I would prefer a complete Type 1 box that can do the job but if push comes to shove a
rebuild of my own box by myself is possible.
Thanks alot. |
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seagull
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| posted on October 11th, 2006 at 07:53 PM |
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gday , up the top of the page is a SEARCH butten , give that a go mate
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake
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dannyboyrulesman2
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| posted on October 11th, 2006 at 10:15 PM |
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Hey do you guys think that it is better to buy a complete rebuilt trans from say USA or rebuild your own? I am looking at getting a mild subaru motor
- not turbo or anything, prob 200HP max. I see the Rancho rebuilt Type 1 boxes look like good value. My main aim is something that can handle the
moderate power and have decent ratios aimed for lower revs at 100km/h than the standard vw ratios which have the motor revving hard for 100km/h. |
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