| [ Total Views: 1135 | Total Replies: 25 | Thread Id: 58762 ] |
|
|
 Donmo
Learner Dubber
Posts: 4
Threads: 1
Registered: December 13th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Adelaide Hills
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on December 13th, 2006 at 07:36 PM |
|
|
Cylinder head/ oil use
Hi
I've just bought a '76 Kombi with a 2 litre engine. It uses a lot of oil but compression is very good (123 min - 125 max). I guess valve
guides?
No.1 cylinder spark plug gets clagged up with carbon and wont spark sometimes but the others are tan or light grey. New heads will cost about
$1500 if I do the job myself. Does it sound like I have any alternatives or have I missed something.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Don |
|
|
 Bizarre
Super Moderator
The artist formerly known as blue74l
Posts: 12780
Threads: 734
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Abbotsford, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on December 13th, 2006 at 08:44 PM |
|
|
First of all welcome :beer
now - what do you call oil useage??
A litre a 1000kms is a lot
500ml to 1L for 5000kms... well that is acceptable
Is it fuel injected??
One spak plug gumming up is a bit of a worry
i would sort that first before you go wacking new heads on
Barry
Futue te ipsum!!!
|
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on December 13th, 2006 at 08:52 PM |
|
|
1 litre per 1000km in urban running is acceptable to some owners - although none of my engines I have ever owned have gone close to this: more like 1
litre per 3-5000km for VW and Holden V6/V8
Does it consume it, or leak it?! What conditions? Fat chance of 1 litre getting past one valve guide in 1000km, I reckon...
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
Donmo
Learner Dubber
Posts: 4
Threads: 1
Registered: December 13th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Adelaide Hills
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on December 13th, 2006 at 08:54 PM |
|
|
It's a carb engine.
It uses more than one litre for less than 1000K. It occasionaly gets an embarrrasing smoke up but then it (the smke) goes away. Otherwise it runs
well. No leaks that would account for it's thirst for oil.
Don
[ Edited on 13-12-2006 by Donmo ] |
|
|
kombidaze
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
Posts: 83
Threads: 0
Registered: August 12th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: south eastern NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: hopeful
|
| posted on December 13th, 2006 at 09:04 PM |
|
|
a new set of amc heads should cost about $1100 try classic vee dub or vintage in sydney or ring jax heads for a reco job they are in lismore nsw
reputed to be the best by the northern veedubbers phone 02 6621 5561
|
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on December 13th, 2006 at 09:24 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Donmo
It's a carb engine.
It uses more than one litre for less than 1000K. It occasionaly gets an embarrrasing smoke up but then it (the smke) goes away. Otherwise it runs
well. No leaks that would account for it's thirst for oil.
Don
[ Edited on 13-12-2006 by Donmo ]
|
Only occassionally? Try some engine oil flush shit, then new oil and a long (several hours at 100km/h) freeway drive.. might help loosen a siezed oil
control ring
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
Bizarre
Super Moderator
The artist formerly known as blue74l
Posts: 12780
Threads: 734
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Abbotsford, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on December 14th, 2006 at 06:43 AM |
|
|
OK - why not pull the effected head off and get that one rebuilt??
New guides, seats etc??
Futue te ipsum!!!
|
|
|
dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5901
Threads: 178
Registered: January 6th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Gold Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: 591
|
| posted on December 14th, 2006 at 08:24 AM |
|
|
If the heads are off it is easy to do the pist/cly as well.
Bare minimum some rings.
Don't guess, it will save you a heap of trouble.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
|
|
|
|
Donmo
Learner Dubber
Posts: 4
Threads: 1
Registered: December 13th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Adelaide Hills
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on December 15th, 2006 at 09:12 AM |
|
|
Thanks everyone for your suggestions.
I'll try the engine flush thing (it needs new oil anyway) and if that does not work then it's engine out during my Christmas holidays.
Don |
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on December 15th, 2006 at 09:38 AM |
|
|
Don't just flush it - drive it to clean things out
and use thicker oil - castrol 'old engine' oil (forgot what its called)
[ Edited on 14-12-2006 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
Schmoburger
A.k.a.: Kieran "Schmeaux" Boundy Stock-Nazi, Kombi Konquistador
Veteran Volks Folk
Baywindow Mafia Godfather and Cement-Shoe Fitter
Posts: 2185
Threads: 116
Registered: October 10th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Jervis Bay area, NSW... Tomerong to be precise
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Over the moon... having difficulty breathing up here! :duh
|
| posted on December 15th, 2006 at 04:03 PM |
|
|
I personally find Castrol performs very badly in aircooled engines... and I'm not the only one.
Heck, even my father had no end of trouble with Castrol oils for the short time he used them when racing Mini's back in the 70's... despite Castrol
GTX being the lubricant recommended by BMC itself! when he switched to Valvoline it was cool bananas! 
Castrol oils turn to sludgy soapy molasses in short order in a VW motor.
Valvoline is worlds better, and Pennzoil also seemed to do it's job very well (it'd want to for what ya pay for the shit! :duh)
Try using something around 25W-60 grade... should burn slightly less in the cylinders. 
1976 Kombi Trakka camper, "Buttercup"... driver.
1976 Beluxe Microbus, "Saphir"... resto.
1974 Kombi panelvan, "George"... shed.
1974 Superbug, "Schmeetle"... resto.
[url=www.baywindowmafia.tk][img]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b366/c
|
|
|
Donmo
Learner Dubber
Posts: 4
Threads: 1
Registered: December 13th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Adelaide Hills
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on January 8th, 2007 at 08:38 AM |
|
|
I thought I'd give an update on how things went.
I tried the engine flush and drive. It was interesting how just 200cc of flush stuff added to the oil incresed the idle revs about double. New oil in
and I left a trail of smoke between here and Murray bridge and used 3 litres of oil in 500K. Tried thicker oil (20 -65?) which calmed things a touch
but not much.
I took the engine out on the weekend and was surprised to not find any broken or stuck rings. Ring end gap is more than 2mm so I suppose that means
the engine is just very worn out. At first glance there seems no disasters with the heads.
I'm not sure how to go about checking the big end/crank but the red (oil) light got active when the oil level dropped so I suppose I need to. Thank
goodness the clutch looks good.
Don |
|
|
68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
Aircooled Master
Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138% - YIKES --
Posts: 11654
Threads: 449
Registered: August 31st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SCONE in UPPER HUNTER VALLEY NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Yellow
Mood: Really Mentally Ill - all of the time -
|
| posted on January 8th, 2007 at 11:00 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Schmoburger
I personally find Castrol performs very badly in aircooled engines... and I'm not the only one.
Heck, even my father had no end of trouble with Castrol oils for the short time he used them when racing Mini's back in the 70's... despite Castrol
GTX being the lubricant recommended by BMC itself! when he switched to Valvoline it was cool bananas!
Castrol oils turn to sludgy soapy molasses in short order in a VW motor.
Valvoline is worlds better, and Pennzoil also seemed to do it's job very well (it'd want to for what ya pay for the shit! :duh)
Try using something around 25W-60 grade... should burn slightly less in the cylinders.
|
I also find that GTX2 which a lot of VW owners on here are using....
does turn to soapy sludgy stuff in the strainer....
in less than 1000kms too....
I just gave a bottle of Valvoline away to My Son...
who will use it in His beetle engine....
I might change oils then.....
My engine does use a bit of GTX2 also....
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
|
|
|
68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
Aircooled Master
Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138% - YIKES --
Posts: 11654
Threads: 449
Registered: August 31st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SCONE in UPPER HUNTER VALLEY NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Yellow
Mood: Really Mentally Ill - all of the time -
|
| posted on January 8th, 2007 at 01:39 PM |
|
|
anyone else having GTX2 problems???
Who uses Valvoline 20W60 ??
Anyone recommend it??
thanks Keiran,
I think I'll swap over to Valvoline ??/60 oil....
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
|
|
|
xornge666x
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 460
Threads: 15
Registered: September 17th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Providence RI, USA / Melb OZ
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: agnostic
|
| posted on January 8th, 2007 at 03:56 PM |
|
|
20w60 is a thick oil. it will help the issues of a worn engine, but not the ideal fix.
a quality 10-40 is good in a healthy engine.
|
|
|
68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
Aircooled Master
Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138% - YIKES --
Posts: 11654
Threads: 449
Registered: August 31st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SCONE in UPPER HUNTER VALLEY NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Yellow
Mood: Really Mentally Ill - all of the time -
|
| posted on January 8th, 2007 at 04:44 PM |
|
|
but Castrol recommend GTX2 for air cooled beetles etc..
I was going to use Magnatec 10w40...
GTX2 is 20w50 from memory...
and the oil gets very hot in an air cooled engine...
anyone run 20w60 ???
My engine hasn't done 1500kms since it was rebuilt 10 years ago...
so the engine isn't worn....
I see many companies are selling 20w?? /60 oil now...
usually for worn engines....
[some say for old engines, but thats incorrect as Your engine can be old but not worn...]
Does anyone NOT get all that grey sludge in the screen at each oil change???
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
|
|
|
ACE_76
Posts:
Threads:
Registered: January 1st, 1970
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on January 8th, 2007 at 10:12 PM |
|
|
"Full synthetics" may give the best high temperature performance, & resistance to oxidation/breakdown. (However some synthetics "ARE"
mineral-based !!!)
If using mineral oil, true monogrades (single grades) are inherently more temp. resistant than multigrades, but are usually of 'lower spec.' now
("for lawnmowers" etc.) and may not have the best additives.
The next best to a mono- is a multigrade that isn't TOO "multi" in viscosity, as seen by the two numbers being relatively close together. eg. a
25W-50 will be better for a hot engine than a 15W-50.
The best Mineral oils in theory would go roughly as follows:
1. Mono (eg. 30, 40, or 20 or 50)
2. 20W-40 or 25W-50
3. 20W-50
4. 15W-40
5. 10W-40 & 15W-50
6. 10W-50
7. 10W-30, 5W-30
A 10W-30 does NOT behave the same as a Mono 30 in a hot/hard running engine - they are totally different. Do not use 10W-30 or thinner in a road
car.
The sludge can be due to moisture, wear particles, decomposing oil, or broken down oil-additives (often seen as gritty bits). The ability of an oil
to resist sludge formation is partly due to the most appropriate additives being used, and partly due to the quality of the base oil. Oils that are
better at resisting high temp. should show less sludge, darkening etc., though some of this is unavoidable (ie. when due to the engine itself, or how
it is used). |
|
|
aggri1
A.k.a.: Aurel Griesser
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 824
Threads: 35
Registered: December 3rd, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Eastern Melbourne
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: ska'd for life
|
| posted on January 10th, 2007 at 12:25 PM |
|
|
The dude who rebuilt my 1800 TypeIV also recommended mono-grade oil. He used a monograde diesel oil actually, I can't remember exactly what it was,
SAE50 rated I think.
I've used Castrol GTX2 quite successfully in the old (really worn) 1800, and for the run-in of the new 1800. The old worn one still only drank a
small cup of oil per 500km. I never noticed excessive sludging during oil changes, but then it's what you're used to isn't it? I also do change
the oil fairly regularly - it's easy and a kind thing to do to the old Bus ey.
What I've been wondering is about changing oils: can one switch easily amongst any oils available these days? Detergent/non-detergent was (is?) an
issue? Is it ok to just fill up with a monograde at the next oil change?
Cheers, A.
|
|
|
68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
Aircooled Master
Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138% - YIKES --
Posts: 11654
Threads: 449
Registered: August 31st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SCONE in UPPER HUNTER VALLEY NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Yellow
Mood: Really Mentally Ill - all of the time -
|
| posted on January 10th, 2007 at 01:40 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by aggri1
I've used Castrol GTX2 quite successfully in the old (really worn) 1800, and for the run-in of the new 1800. The old worn one still only
drank a small cup of oil per 500km. I never noticed excessive sludging during oil changes, but then it's what you're used to isn't it? I
also do change the oil fairly regularly - it's easy and a kind thing to do to the old Bus ey.
What I've been wondering is about changing oils: can one switch easily amongst any oils available these days? Detergent/non-detergent was (is?) an
issue?
Is it ok to just fill up with a monograde at the next oil change?
Cheers, A.
|
Hi,
I'm not sure any motor oils are Non detergent oils these days...
every container I read, suitable for diesel engines....
and thats detergent oil...
All oil companies and maybe all car companies don't recommend changing brands of oil....
but grades of oil from the same company should be OK...
naturally, a change Is normally going to happen at some stage... but overall using the same brand of oil...
I just read in a Beetle Workshop manual that 1 litre per 1000 miles is considered OK for oil useage...
Ypur comment on the oil sludge.... I thought it was normal, but if Valvoline oil does a better job , with Less sludge... must be better for the
engine...
Lee
http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
|
|
|
Joel
Scirocco Rare
Now containing 100% E-Wang
Posts: 9368
Threads: 211
Registered: February 14th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Purple
Mood: Tact Level 0.00
|
| posted on January 10th, 2007 at 05:11 PM |
|
|
ive used GTX in all my cars aircooled and watercooled and have never had any sludge or oil burning probs
actually stays fairly clean
ive got 10w-40 John Deere diesel oil in my 75 1300 beetle atm just as a trial to see how it goes but at $10 a litre its not a cheap option
but those magnatec oils are a wank in VWs
stop and think about how much of the vw engine is actually magnetic and also being a horizontally opposed engine is even less reason.
-Joel
oh yeah whoever it was with the filings in the oil its fairly normal on a running in engine to have a few very small shavings as the cam gears break
in
[ Edited on 10-1-2007 by DUB74L ]
|
|
|
ACE_76
Posts:
Threads:
Registered: January 1st, 1970
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on January 12th, 2007 at 12:18 PM |
|
|
I think "Magnatec" is friction modified. It's not "magnetic" in the usual sense. It has a special ester component which gives it some affinity
to metals & allows it to 'cling'. This is described in their literatrure. As oils get thinner, more of this is done as thin oils naturally run off
hot metal, leading to dry-starts. If you want to use a lighter oil, this is no doubt a good thing. (The same probably goes fro newer-type GL-2, GL-3
rated oils.)
Diesel -rated oils are generally better for older/aircooleds. Theyt are more expensive as they have more & better additives.
If using a Mono, try 40 or 30 first unless the engine is worn. You may have to buy 20L to get a good diesel rated mono.
If recently rebuilt engine, don't start it's life with a thicker 20W-60 or so. Start "thin" - it will wear less and may run a little cooler. Go
to a thicker grade if it's leaking/burning oil, or has low compression. If it runs "too hot" but has no other signs of age/wear, just going to a
thicker oil may make it run hotter! |
|
|
Schmoburger
A.k.a.: Kieran "Schmeaux" Boundy Stock-Nazi, Kombi Konquistador
Veteran Volks Folk
Baywindow Mafia Godfather and Cement-Shoe Fitter
Posts: 2185
Threads: 116
Registered: October 10th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Jervis Bay area, NSW... Tomerong to be precise
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Over the moon... having difficulty breathing up here! :duh
|
| posted on January 15th, 2007 at 01:54 PM |
|
|
Hmmm..I may try the diesl oil option at my next oil change... Im happy with the standard run-of-the-mill Valvoline stuff Im using now, however I may
be plkeasantly surprised again be diesl grade oil it would seem...
I also have been told by a few VW that running thicker oils does lead to a hotter running engine (understandable as oil would be slower to pass
through the oil cooler and such)... 15W-40 is supposed to be better than 20W-50 or -60 for regular use in an engine with good compression. 
Lee, I noticed you query the 20W-60 grade in a wtf sort of manner heheh 
I have not actually seen it sold in too many places... it does exist as I have a bottle of it (Pennzoil) that came with my Kombi, but I have not been
able to find it since... the closest I could get my hands on was either 20W-50 or 25W-60. 25 seems a little bit too thick for my liking, so I opted
for the thinner one and have been happy (after switching to Valvoline that is :tu, and I might try a 15W-40 or the like next time...
I reckon if your motr has only done 1500 k's, 20/25W-60 would definitely be overkill.. reall y only of any benefit in a car thats got shot
rings...
CHeers!
Kieran
1976 Kombi Trakka camper, "Buttercup"... driver.
1976 Beluxe Microbus, "Saphir"... resto.
1974 Kombi panelvan, "George"... shed.
1974 Superbug, "Schmeetle"... resto.
[url=www.baywindowmafia.tk][img]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b366/c
|
|
|
68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
Aircooled Master
Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138% - YIKES --
Posts: 11654
Threads: 449
Registered: August 31st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SCONE in UPPER HUNTER VALLEY NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Yellow
Mood: Really Mentally Ill - all of the time -
|
| posted on January 15th, 2007 at 05:14 PM |
|
|
the 20W/60 may have been a mistake on My part..
it may have been 25W/65....
and Magnatec is 15W?/40 as i use it My Lancer..
I was going to use it in My beetle but Castrol recommends GTX2 for air cooled engines...
Also just wondering if everyone takes the strainer out and clean it when you change the oil....
thats why VW deleted the sump plug in later model beetles
so the plate etc would have to be removed and the strainer cleaned....
that is where the sludge sits.... in My engine...
many people have the yukky stuff in the oil cap .... too.
which seems to be a mixture of moisture and oil..
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
|
|
|
Joel
Scirocco Rare
Now containing 100% E-Wang
Posts: 9368
Threads: 211
Registered: February 14th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Purple
Mood: Tact Level 0.00
|
| posted on January 15th, 2007 at 07:03 PM |
|
|
i used to clean my strainers every oil change till i got sick of them not needing it so i only do it every 2nd even then it still seems pointless as
theyre only rock catchers so theres never much in them in a healthy motor
my new motor im starting to build atm im full flowing the oil system and fitting a external filter so it will be interesting to see how much shit that
catches
i often cut them open for a peak inside
-Joel
|
|
|
Schmoburger
A.k.a.: Kieran "Schmeaux" Boundy Stock-Nazi, Kombi Konquistador
Veteran Volks Folk
Baywindow Mafia Godfather and Cement-Shoe Fitter
Posts: 2185
Threads: 116
Registered: October 10th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Jervis Bay area, NSW... Tomerong to be precise
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Over the moon... having difficulty breathing up here! :duh
|
| posted on January 15th, 2007 at 08:45 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by 68AutoBug
the 20W/60 may have been a mistake on My part..
it may have been 25W/65....
and Magnatec is 15W?/40 as i use it My Lancer..
I was going to use it in My beetle but Castrol recommends GTX2 for air cooled engines...
Also just wondering if everyone takes the strainer out and clean it when you change the oil....
thats why VW deleted the sump plug in later model beetles
so the plate etc would have to be removed and the strainer cleaned....
that is where the sludge sits.... in My engine...
many people have the yukky stuff in the oil cap .... too.
which seems to be a mixture of moisture and oil..
Lee
|
20W-50 does exist hehee... just seems to be hard to get.
but yeh... I occasionally have cleaned the strainer but I dont do it religiously... altho when I have there has been the sludgy shit when using the
Castrol oil.... and I have indeed noticed when using Castrol that there was a milky scummy residue in the top of the filler cap... :puke:
1976 Kombi Trakka camper, "Buttercup"... driver.
1976 Beluxe Microbus, "Saphir"... resto.
1974 Kombi panelvan, "George"... shed.
1974 Superbug, "Schmeetle"... resto.
[url=www.baywindowmafia.tk][img]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b366/c
|
|
|
ExQuokka
Learner Dubber
Posts: 8
Threads: 2
Registered: January 17th, 2007
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on January 21st, 2007 at 08:30 AM |
|
|
Oh, No! The great oil debate firing up again! ...and I'm posting!
But I've gotta jump in on one thing - DO NOT USE DIESEL OIL IN YOUR VW! It will not protect your engine against the products of a petrol-burning
engine.
Many bad stories travel the web about "Magnatec" and teflon-based additives in VWs - they tend to clog the strainer and cause oil starvation.
Don't know about GTX2, but I do know more VW owners have successfully run Valvoline all over the world than any other oil.
Additives to stop smoke and reduce oil consumption can be very tempting when you're broke or desperate, but have killed many an air-cooled, with very
limited success.
(climbs back down off soap box and skulks from room...)
|
|
|
