| [ Total Views: 1251 | Total Replies: 25 | Thread Id: 59853 ] |
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 BiX
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| posted on January 24th, 2007 at 10:56 AM |
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Creamic Coating- heads, barrels and Pistons
The bottom end of the new engine it togther and the heads etc are being finished. It was decided to bump the CR up a fair bit and because if this,
ceramic coat the piston tops and combustion chambers and exhust ports on each head. I understand the theory behind this, eg to stop heat transfer
etc.
But it was also suggested i ceramic coat the outside of the barrels, what are ppls opinions on this? i assume its a different coating to the inside as
you want to be dissapating heat rather than keeping it in? is it a good idea?
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woz_mnskmobi
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| posted on January 24th, 2007 at 12:09 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by BiX
The bottom end of the new engine it togther and the heads etc are being finished. It was decided to bump the CR up a fair bit and because if this,
ceramic coat the piston tops and combustion chambers and exhust ports on each head. I understand the theory behind this, eg to stop heat transfer
etc.
But it was also suggested i ceramic coat the outside of the barrels, what are ppls opinions on this? i assume its a different coating to the inside as
you want to be dissapating heat rather than keeping it in? is it a good idea?
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My understanding is that external coatings can block the heat flow.
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Judsons4eva
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| posted on January 24th, 2007 at 12:34 PM |
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Do not coat barrels with anything other than old fashioned black stove enamel. Any coating will impair heat flow.
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toplessbug
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| posted on January 24th, 2007 at 07:04 PM |
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judson that is incorrect,
research coatings and you will find heat dispersing coatings widely used in many apps ,for our need they are particularly good ,i have used it and and
was very happy with the results however i cant give you empirical data as i didnt have another set to swap over too ,ceramic and heat dispersant
coatings work well in my experience:beer:beer:beer
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
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MickH
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| posted on January 24th, 2007 at 09:09 PM |
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ANY smooth coating,weather it be ceramic or polished dog sh*t will REDUCE the ability of the cylinders to dissapate heat when used externally.The air
flow will lose turbulance if the surface isn't "rough" and the cooling ability is reduced as the air flows over a reduced surface area.Do a
search,this has been brought up before. Coating the inside of the head is a different ketle of fish... :beer
tssnq.com.au
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toplessbug
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| posted on January 24th, 2007 at 09:46 PM |
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v8 supercars and almost every othre form of motorsport involved in extracting the last bit of performance will disagree with your sweeping
statement,if you need to dissapate heat fast you need these coatings ,they are not ceramic and they dont smooth they ENHANCE the heat shedding
properties of a cast piece be it alloy or iron,this stuff on plain ordinary cast iron cyls works and in conjunction with ceramic combustion chambers
and ex ports and valve heads really gets things under control ,its not cheap, but it works:beer
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
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MickH
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| posted on January 24th, 2007 at 10:12 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by toplessbug
v8 supercars and almost every othre form of motorsport involved in extracting the last bit of performance will disagree with your sweeping
statement,if you need to dissapate heat fast you need these coatings ,they are not ceramic and they dont smooth they ENHANCE the heat shedding
properties of a cast piece be it alloy or iron,this stuff on plain ordinary cast iron cyls works and in conjunction with ceramic combustion chambers
and ex ports and valve heads really gets things under control ,its not cheap, but it works:beer
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Don't get your nappy in a knot.We are talking about CERAMIC coatings,as the title of this thread suggests.My "sweeping statement" as you so
politely put it, is actually a fact when referring to ceramic coatings on the outside of an air cooled cylinder. We are also talking about an air
cooled motor,not a supercar water cooled donk,who's thermal output would kill a VW engine. I will now practise what your signature
suggests.......:kiss
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MickH
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| posted on January 24th, 2007 at 11:03 PM |
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Read this..
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=5613#pid191792
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BiX
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| posted on January 25th, 2007 at 12:16 PM |
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Ok well i have already done a search and read the other thread, but it turned into a thread with no real back up or data. just ppl slanging each
other.
Done some more investigation, and the barrels will be coated with a heat dissapating coating, which is different to the ceramic coating of the piston
tops and chambers.
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on January 25th, 2007 at 01:30 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by BiX
Done some more investigation, and the barrels will be coated with a heat dissapating coating, which is different to the ceramic
coating of the piston tops and chambers.
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Now that sounds better as ceramic or chrome or anything else would stop the dissiapation of heat from the cylinders.
VW used to use chromed tappet covers in the Artic circle back in the 50s to keep the heat in.....
maybe they could have chromed the cylinders too???
although I believe you could paint the bare cylinders with any paint, as its not going to stop the heat disapation.
the paint would have to be very high tenp stuff too....
Sounds like an expensive exercise....
ceramic coating the heads of the pistons etc....
exhaust ports etc....
probably pick up a few extra horsepower though...
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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BiX
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| posted on January 25th, 2007 at 02:53 PM |
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the compression ratio really requires it (10.5:1). Its a 90% race motor... i won't talk about the cost. But hopefully will have it fully sorted for
the hillclimb championships a mt cotton this year.......
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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66deluxe
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| posted on January 25th, 2007 at 04:20 PM |
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Just a question when is the Mt Cotton hillclimb this year, thanks Damo.
This is my Volkswagen, there are many like it, but this one is mine. Without me my Volkswagen is useless, without my Volkswagen, I am useless.
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BiX
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| posted on January 25th, 2007 at 04:28 PM |
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which event? the first round of the tighe series is on the 11th of feb.............
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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Judsons4eva
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| posted on January 25th, 2007 at 10:48 PM |
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OK Topless I guess my 30 years work in advanced engine research counts for nothing - so go ahead and coat your barrells and fry your engine. As others
have said your signature is pretty spot on!
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toplessbug
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| posted on January 25th, 2007 at 11:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
| Quote: | Originally
posted by toplessbug
v8 supercars and almost every othre form of motorsport involved in extracting the last bit of performance will disagree with your sweeping
statement,if you need to dissapate heat fast you need these coatings ,they are not ceramic and they dont smooth they ENHANCE the heat shedding
properties of a cast piece be it alloy or iron,this stuff on plain ordinary cast iron cyls works and in conjunction with ceramic combustion chambers
and ex ports and valve heads really gets things under control ,its not cheap, but it works:beer
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Don't get your nappy in a knot.We are talking about CERAMIC coatings,as the title of this thread suggests.My "sweeping statement" as you so
politely put it, is actually a fact when referring to ceramic coatings on the outside of an air cooled cylinder. We are also talking about an air
cooled motor,not a supercar water cooled donk,who's thermal output would kill a VW engine. I will now practise what your signature
suggests.......:kiss
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if i may
who said anything about a waterbottle donk ,i mentioned performance of an entity,brake calipers are aircooled and need to dissapate heat like now,
along with a host of other components,
add to the fact that in most if not all circumstances the coatings are produced and applied by the same company ,most people refer to specialist
coatings as CERAMIC and dont bother to differentiate between heat retaining , heat shedding ,
OH and i stand by what i said ,judsons ,you said and i quote "Any coating will impair heat flow.", this is not correct and i would refer you to here
http://www.brookscoatsit.com/heatdisp.html or perhaps here http://www.competitioncoatings.com.au/ or perhaps http://www.techlinecoatings.com/introduction.html#thermaldispersant:beer
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
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Judsons4eva
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| posted on January 26th, 2007 at 10:20 AM |
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As a general statement I'll stand by what I said "any coating will impair heat flow" You can believe what you like about snake oil type sales
information but the fact of the matter no engine manufacturer of air cooled engines use any form of coating other than paint or anodizing on aluminium
barrels. This includes Porsche, Honda, Yamaha and also aircraft engine makers like Pratt and Whitney Lycoming. The risk of any coating that claims to
improve heat dissipation is that if is not correctly applied a air gap forms between the cylinder and coating and this further impedes heat flow.
Rather than believing sales information educate yourself by searching the technical papers published by SAE and leading engine research universities
like the University of Wisconsin. They have no axe to grind.
I'd save my money and stay away from coating barrels.
The links you posted are interesting as they all look like low budget operations and when you read about their heat dispersant coatings they sound
like expensive forms of black stove enamel - which I originally said was the only thing you should coat barrels with.
The post topic is "ceramic coatings" and you are leading the even less informed to believe ceramic coatings of barrels are a good idea.
I'll stop my arguing now!
[ Edited on 26-1-2007 by Judsons4eva ]
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shiftyvw
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| posted on January 27th, 2007 at 08:10 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by BiX
the compression ratio really requires it (10.5:1). Its a 90% race motor... i won't talk about the cost. But hopefully will have it fully sorted for
the hillclimb championships a mt cotton this year.......
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10.5:1 isnt that high.....money would be better spent elsewhere IMO. Whats the specs on the rest of the motor?
Spend your money on buying the last 10% of the race motor:P
testing 1 2 3...
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BiX
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| posted on January 29th, 2007 at 09:13 AM |
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The only real difference is in the cam selection, which is a little mild.
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on February 20th, 2007 at 08:55 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by BiX
the compression ratio really requires it (10.5:1). Its a 90% race motor... i won't talk about the cost. But hopefully will have it fully sorted for
the hillclimb championships a mt cotton this year.......
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Cool.................you can see how it goes against a pobjoy 1916:P
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bond
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| posted on February 20th, 2007 at 09:11 PM |
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lol... here we go...
nick
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1916
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| posted on February 21st, 2007 at 12:44 AM |
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craig craig...are you saying that if you win its simply the motor and not any driver skill whatsoever..if thats the case perhaps you should change
from a pobjoy and see if u sitll win :p
Anthony
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and make em act a certain way or else He deems 'em evil?
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Andy
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| posted on February 21st, 2007 at 01:08 AM |
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Bix, without getting caught in all the other crap, when I did my motor (2L type 4) in addition to ceramic coating the compustion chamber I also did
the exhaust. The only other thing I did was to get a molybond type coating to the piston sleeves and valve spring.
:blah
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BiX
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| posted on February 21st, 2007 at 09:34 AM |
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Hi Craig, what sort of times do you run around mt cotton? i normally run road reg rather than imp prod.
There is also another bug (pobjoy powered) that just hit the road up here, and did its first run on the hillclimb a few weeks ago (more of a shake
down).
Andy, exhaust ports are being done but not the ex system, i was going to heat rap that.
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on February 21st, 2007 at 07:58 PM |
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I have never raced at Mt Cotton, so the Australian titles will be the first time !!
Should be a good event, I hope you enter so we can both slaughter the escorts and datsuns
Do the exhaust system as well.
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Andy
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| posted on February 22nd, 2007 at 12:05 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by BiX
............Andy, exhaust ports are being done but not the ex system, i was going to heat rap that.
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That's probably better for heat retension anyway 
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Gracey
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| posted on February 22nd, 2007 at 02:00 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by BiX
Andy, exhaust ports are being done but not the ex system, i was going to heat rap that.
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Heat rap will destroy your exhaust system in short order, you'd be better off getting the exhaust ceramic coated. IMO
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