| [ Total Views: 216595 | Total Replies: 64 | Thread Id: 60976 ] |
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 Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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 posted on March 6th, 2007 at 03:24 PM |
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EFI ECU experiences?
I have been researching the options for ECUs available - I noticed after re-reading Wayne and Nick's threads that you both run Microtech LTX8.
I was looking at the LT-10 which supposedly has recently replaced the LTX8 (judging by microtech website).
Can I ask what are your thoughts and experiences with the microtech system....and also ask others who have used alternative systems how they rate? The
microtech does not have the facility for EDIS right (electronic distributorless ignition system)? Whereas I notice the megasquirt does?
Although the rest of the engine (type IV 2L) will be built on a budget (2nd hand turbo, single throttle body etc), I don't mind outlaying for a good
ECU since I will reuse it on a bigger engine down the track. Likewise for the water to air intercooler (will shell out for a decent system since it
won't be obsolete once I upgrade the engine).
Any help is appreciated
Alan
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 vw54
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| posted on March 6th, 2007 at 04:03 PM |
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at the LT-10 which supposedly has recently replaced the LTX8 (judging by microtech website).
yeah thats correct they dont make the LT8 anymore, you can prob get one of Ebay if you dont want the expense
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Turbo54
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| posted on March 6th, 2007 at 04:20 PM |
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Alan,
I have looked into this quite a lot. It all really depends on who you want to tune your motor and what they fell more confident in. Also budget
dictates quite a lot. I want to run a autronic but the base model in the same as the haltech e6x. My tuner likes the haltechs and the E6X can do
everything I need it to + they are very affordable. It can do EDIS and has many spare ports to turn pumps and fans on and off. Some computers seem
more popular in different states also I have noticed.
They are always bringing new models out so I was told to leave buying one until the last minute as there might be a better model out buy the time you
actually get around to running it.
I would love to hear why I should run the LT-10 over an E6X from some of the guys that have experience with both.
Good luck,
Heath
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there's a new sensation hitting town,
It's moving straight, low to the ground,
it'll pick you up when your feeling down.
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koolkarmakombi
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| posted on March 6th, 2007 at 04:52 PM |
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I suspect there are many EFI converts like me who have subscribed to this thread. I have always liked the megasquirt idea however real world local
advice will direct my decision more than the fanatics in the USA.
Back to lurk.....
This disclaimer does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either myself, my company, my friends, or my dog: don't quote me on that; don't
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Dasdubber
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| posted on March 6th, 2007 at 06:19 PM |
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I definitely plan to have a chat to local tuners on the gold coast once I get some recommendations who to talk to!
There is amazing how much info is out there and how many opinions there are (which of course everyone is entitled to)....hence why I wanted to get
some more accounts of first hand experiences!
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tassupervee
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| posted on March 6th, 2007 at 07:55 PM |
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Im using older MT-8's on both an FJ20et and an E15et (Nissans).
Both of these ECU's are running with no distributers. One is a wasted spark config and the other in 4 coil sequential config.
They have to be configured to run edis by Microtech and it depends on what crank angle triggers you have setup (they need both trigger and synch cas)
as to whether they will run sequentially and without a dizzy.
I also run EMS stuff which was on the Turbo Pulsar and is now on the turbo 1600 F-Vee engine.
Its an old Ti-3 and altho it "can" (or could have) be upgraded to run sequentially and with no dissy, EMS dont do the upgrade anymore on such an
older system. The EMS is a simple batch fire arrangement with all the injectors firing together and so only uses the single 180 degree trigger in the
cas.
I cannot really notice any difference between batch or sequentially fired systems on the same motor.
They (aftermarket EFI systems) all work and the more time spent fiddling with them the better they perform.
I am a compulsive efi fiddler and I have tuning handpeices in both cars and the buttons are almost worn out from playing with them "on the run" but
the results are excellent from what many consider to be a very ordinary ECU.
My engines start and run smoothly from cold (below zero on a cold tassie night) and have no driving issues to speak of.
I think a lot of less than desireable press is leveled at one particular ECU over another when the real reason for the complaints is crappy running
due to dodgey install in the first place or a simple lack of time spent trimming the systems for best results after the initial setup.
Its fair to say that not a lot of guys want to pay for the dyno hours of time I have put into the setup of my systems but the results speak for
themselves.
After all, you get one go at a time at setting the cold start maps and its a long wait to get the motor dead cold to try it again.
At the end of the day, you pay your money and you choose your options and the brand name on the box.
However the final result is a matter of time and patience and if you want really good results AND dont do it yourself then its going to cost almost as
much in dyno dollars as the cost of the system itself....ouch!
Hence, I tend to think a lot of guys just put up with the running dramas and unfairly bitch about their setup.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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Boostn
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| posted on March 7th, 2007 at 12:28 AM |
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In Vic the microcrap is very popular.Most of the fast cars are microcrap.Mine has 4 coils and runs a crank angle.
when it comes to tuning boosted cars, they are very easy. The way you tune them is load V's rpm unlike every other computer.
Motech is the best computer in the world, you will get better power more out of the injectors, better fuel economy. BUT at what price?
and do you deserve one? Can you tune one to get the best out of it?
You tune rpm and a % for boost. A lot of work and dyno time!
Microtech you just ramp it up on boost and get your mixtures correct.
Then everything like cold start,CRS, WOT,pump1, pump2,air temp all run off load map you have set up. A lot more basic but it does the job and does it
well and every time!
BUT the new ones have jumped up a bit in price so shopping around is looking good.
The basic Motech is NOT that expensive, it's all the codes to unlock the options that costs.
Autronic is an ex motech guy doing his own thing and is good with more options for less, but the after sales service sucks.
I use microtech because of there simplicity and the fact that I know them inside out, but they are not the best, but safe.
good luck with it all.
VOLLKOMMEN ART
nick@vollkommenart.com
Speed and Style
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vw54
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| posted on March 7th, 2007 at 06:10 AM |
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| Quote: |
have a chat to local tuners on the gold coast once I get some recommendations who
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ask them how long they have been tuning the particular brand and how many cars etc etc good to know the experience of the tuner
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76bug
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| posted on March 7th, 2007 at 08:59 AM |
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boostn,
wot crank angle sensor do u use?
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Dasdubber
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| posted on March 7th, 2007 at 06:20 PM |
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Cheers for the comments thus far - Wayne - anything you can add?
I made a couple of calls today to 2 of the most reputable injection tuning facilities on the coast - similar to what Nick said, microtech seemed to be
the recommendation unless either A) money wasn't a concern and B) the engine required a level of fine tuning that the autronic could give (not the
case with my engine).
I will continue to read and ask questions though, and am grateful for any feedback people can provide.
Nick, looking at some info on the website it mentions two possible setups include the "4 cylinder hall pickup" vs the "4 cylinder 60-2 crank
pickup". I presume you have the latter? Could I ask to provide any details/pics on how you set yours up? And finally, any details on what sensors are
required (sorry to ask so many questions).
Thanks again
Alan
PS I am happy to read if anyone can point me in the right direction for useful links - I am not here for the easy answers (ie. lazy). I just want to
get first hand accounts/experiences.
[ Edited on 7-3-2007 by Dasdubber ]
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2443TT
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| posted on March 10th, 2007 at 06:22 PM |
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I don't think it makes any diference what ecu you get these days, so long as its able to be supported by a local reputable tuner. Preferably one that
has experience with your kind of engine.
The options in Cairns if you want a good tuner is to go autronic, and i'm sure its diferent for every other town in australia. Persoanally I went
with the wolf ecu and since then have looked at a bunch of other ecu's. THe haltech e6x is excelent value for money and has a pretty unbeatable
feature set vs $$$ spent. Flat shift, antilag etc.
Main benefits I can see for going with Autronic and Motec are if your going to get into tuning boost in gears, boost vs road speed, and traction
control (ignition retard based on wheel slip).
I don't undestand how any ecu can make "more power" than any other ecu. It makes no sense to me. All ecu's on the market these days that start at
the $1200-1500$ mark depending on options are all capable of sequential injection, and firing low impedance injectors. All are MAP vs RPM tuned and
have air and coolant temp compensation + more features for fine tuning that most will ever bother with.
What it comes down to I think is that you will find that the Motec guys really know how to tune a car, vs any other tuner will tune on the safe side
so they don't have to pay for your engine rebuild. I think that was mentioned in the Wayne Penrose build up thread.... tuning on the safe side on a
dyno is what most speed shops will do.
One other thing, there is VERY few people in the country that have tuned air cooled engines to above 300rwhp mark in forced induction applications
(not counting NOS).
Go to any speed shop with a dyno in the floor and tell them your building a 500hp vw air cooled engine and need help and they will either laugh at you
and tell you to stop dreaming, or they will just tell you that they have no expertise in tuning that kind of engine.
So your left with.. talk to people that can provide good local support, and help install and tune the ecu. Get it drivable and have some fun with a
safe tune. In the long run your also best to try and learn as much as you can about it as well, because having intimate knowledge about how you built
your engine will help you decide how far you really want to push the engine's power levels.
If you decided to do the lot yourself as I did, there are enough people on the various forums around the place that can help you come up with a
startup map, and help you correctly size your injectors. If you want to go down that path you need to post up the full recipe for your engine, and
then decide on a power level you want to run. After that its all maths, wiring and tuning !
Ah... I also have a 400hp rated PWR water to air barrel intercooler if your interested that is from my old setup I won't be using with my new engine
arrangement, polished etc, PM me if your interested.
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tassupervee
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| posted on March 10th, 2007 at 07:16 PM |
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What he said.
Well put Ian.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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Dasdubber
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| posted on March 10th, 2007 at 11:44 PM |
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Thanks Ian, I appreciate your input.
I've shot you a U2U re. the intercooler along with a question about intake plumbing (ie. plenum options).
Cheers
Alan
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JVLRacing
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| posted on March 11th, 2007 at 12:19 AM |
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The Tuner is only as good as the ECU in front of him! A cheaper brand ECU will not match or have stronger parameters in features compared to
Motec,EMS,Autronic.......If all ECUs work the same why dont they use Wolf,Microtech them on eg.V8 Supercars.or incomparisment.I do believe a stronger
database in a leading brand ECU will generate a better HP figure.
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Boostn
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| posted on March 11th, 2007 at 06:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by JVLRacing
The Tuner is only as good as the ECU in front of him! A cheaper brand ECU will not match or have stronger parameters in features compared to
Motec,EMS,Autronic.......If all ECUs work the same why dont they use Wolf,Microtech them on eg.V8 Supercars.or incomparisment.I do believe a stronger
database in a leading brand ECU will generate a better HP figure.
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VERY TRUE !
The Motech uses a dominant Motorola chip and has from day one. You get what you pay for and can be upgraded ten years later. Like you said they make
more power this way getting more out of everything including the injectors.
BUT the problem is are you good enough to warrant this?
I am not at that level and the Microtech serves me nicely.
Besides look how fast the Microtech cars are going, mostly with Motech ignition though?
VOLLKOMMEN ART
nick@vollkommenart.com
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Dasdubber
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| posted on March 12th, 2007 at 10:13 PM |
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Nick, with regards to your microtech setup, I assume you run the "4 cylinder 60-2 crank pickup" rather than the "4 cylinder hall pickup" mentioned
on their website?. Any advice or info how yours is set up?
I tried searching but I seem to be getting confused, can anyone advise on what sort of sensors are required - every setup I read about mentions
different requirements - for example if I was to go with the microtech (eg. LTX8 (hopefully can pick one up cheap since their replacement with the
LT-10)....
And yes, you are right, my inexperience in this domain as well as my sedate engine combination does not warrant say an Autronic at $2K plus, but I
also hate spending money twice unnecessarily so want to make the right decision first time.
Thanks again
Alan
[ Edited on 12-3-2007 by Dasdubber ]
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JVLRacing
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| posted on March 13th, 2007 at 11:13 AM |
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Same reason as above post - please keep it on track. Feel free to U2U or email eachother if you want to sort it out off the public forum. Cheers,
alan
[ Edited on 13-3-2007 by Dasdubber ]
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JVLRacing
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| posted on March 13th, 2007 at 12:05 PM |
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Agree apologies Alan.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 13th, 2007 at 12:33 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by JVLRacing
The Tuner is only as good as the ECU in front of him! A cheaper brand ECU will not match or have stronger parameters in features compared to
Motec,EMS,Autronic.......If all ECUs work the same why dont they use Wolf,Microtech them on eg.V8 Supercars.or incomparisment.I do believe a stronger
database in a leading brand ECU will generate a better HP figure.
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I disagree. The ECU can never perform any better than the bloke tuning it. It is my experience that many people fall into the 'brand name junkie'
trap and spend money on systems - ECU and other gear - that is way above a) thier needs and b) their capability or finances to adequately sort out.
Very good results can be had with 'basic' systems as long as the tuner knows what he is doing. A distant relative of mine is flown around the planet
to tune record-setting Microtech-powered cars, a system that is regarded as 'basic' and 'rubbish' by some. Others screw up to 1000hp from
Commodores and Fords using 15-year-old $80 computers pulled from wrecking yards. It is my opinion and experience that, as with other vehicle systems
such as engine building or suspension set-up, finding a bloke who knows what he is doing is often far more important than buying the brand on the
box
[ Edited on 13-3-2007 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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JVLRacing
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| posted on March 13th, 2007 at 01:53 PM |
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:oSo a 1000hp Commodore or Ford etc. using a 15year old $80 computer will run better than a Autronic,Motoc ECU .....Ok Microtech top powered cars are deffently kicking arse,but you will find these blokes run and
tune there cars for hrs on hrs to work them and especially the ones who have in house dynos to do this..that why they have the numbers and thats
excellent.........Yes any brand box name can break down but a least you get a warranty,not stuff from the tip that people preach about.If anyone had a
choice between a Microtech or Motec !i know which one i would take and a good tuner would as well even if he had to learn again with another brand.
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tassupervee
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| posted on March 13th, 2007 at 04:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by JVLRacing
:oSo a 1000hp Commodore or Ford etc. using a 15year old $80 computer will run better than a Autronic,Motoc ECU
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Well actually yes.
Id stick my neck out and say that the 80 dollar ECU would be a Delco system used successfully for many years and the now very comprehensive Kalmaker
programming software.
There is nothing at all wrong with this clobber in comparison to anything else on the market but it does get down to the tuners ability and bravery
rather than the ECU brand or the programming software.
By bravery, I mean how lean, anf how much ignition a tuner is brave enough to dial in to a setup to get the horsepower and when dealing with high
boost pressures and RPM, it is a brave tuner indeed who will sail someone elses 50 grand plus engine close to the proverbial EGO and ignition advance
wind which is where the big horsepower resides.
'Brrrring briiing...(click).. "Hello JVL, this is tassuperkart performance tuning here, I have some wonderful news....mayyyyyte!
Your 50 grand engine made 1000Hp on the dyno on pump fuel, sensational (JVL grins from ear to ear)and what is even more wonderful is that you can come
and take home all the hot and oily bits in a rubbish bin....it went bang! Sorry M8....Cya (click) (JVL pops a poofer valve, lays in the foetal
position sucking his thumb just before slashing his wrists)!
Well you get the drift.
The calculation required to meter fuel are not that fantastci based on a couple of simple parameters common to nearly all ECU's
Its fair to say that the high end ECU's come loaded with sophisticated tuning software, able to make fine adjustments down to laughably small RPM
increments and a plethora of bells and whistles, Ie: launch control, traction control, anti-lag and so-on. A lot of it seriously desireable, but
largely useless to almost ALL of us!
But at the end of the day, the low end cheapie will meter the fuel in the same manner and produce good results.
Microtech have proved this for many years with their supposedly "low end" ECU's powering some of the most powerful machinery alive!
Ive said this before, I run low end MT-8 Microtech and EMS Ti-3 ECU's and they both perform all but faultlessly.
And Im a seriously fussy and pedantic driver as far as engine response is concerned.
I seriously believe you pay your money and you make your choice but i dont believe that any programmeable ECU would be noticeably faster or better
than another in the real world.
Just my 3 bobs worth. A good discussion and interesting to hear other points of view.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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JVLRacing
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| posted on March 13th, 2007 at 05:03 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by tassupervee
| Quote: | Originally
posted by JVLRacing
:oSo a 1000hp Commodore or Ford etc. using a 15year old $80 computer will run better than a Autronic,Motoc ECU
|
Well actually yes.
Id stick my neck out and say that the 80 dollar ECU would be a Delco system used successfully for many years and the now very comprehensive Kalmaker
programming software.
There is nothing at all wrong with this clobber in comparison to anything else on the market but it does get down to the tuners ability and bravery
rather than the ECU brand or the programming software.
By bravery, I mean how lean, anf how much ignition a tuner is brave enough to dial in to a setup to get the horsepower and when dealing with high
boost pressures and RPM, it is a brave tuner indeed who will sail someone elses 50 grand plus engine close to the proverbial EGO and ignition advance
wind which is where the big horsepower resides.
'Brrrring briiing...(click).. "Hello JVL, this is tassuperkart performance tuning here, I have some wonderful news....mayyyyyte!
Your 50 grand engine made 1000Hp on the dyno on pump fuel, sensational (JVL grins from ear to ear)and what is even more wonderful is that you can come
and take home all the hot and oily bits in a rubbish bin....it went bang! Sorry M8....Cya (click) (JVL pops a poofer valve, lays in the foetal
position sucking his thumb just before slashing his wrists)!
Well you get the drift.
The calculation required to meter fuel are not that fantastci based on a couple of simple parameters common to nearly all ECU's
Its fair to say that the high end ECU's come loaded with sophisticated tuning software, able to make fine adjustments down to laughably small RPM
increments and a plethora of bells and whistles, Ie: launch control, traction control, anti-lag and so-on. A lot of it seriously desireable, but
largely useless to almost ALL of us!
But at the end of the day, the low end cheapie will meter the fuel in the same manner and produce good results.
Microtech have proved this for many years with their supposedly "low end" ECU's powering some of the most powerful machinery alive!
Ive said this before, I run low end MT-8 Microtech and EMS Ti-3 ECU's and they both perform all but faultlessly.
And Im a seriously fussy and pedantic driver as far as engine response is concerned.
I seriously believe you pay your money and you make your choice but i dont believe that any programmeable ECU would be noticeably faster or better
than another in the real world.
Just my 3 bobs worth. A good discussion and interesting to hear other points of view.
L8tr
E
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:P:thumbwell said!
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on March 13th, 2007 at 09:26 PM |
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Well I tried to 'win' a LTX-8 on egay but bidding went rediculously high. If anyone comes across a reasonably priced one feel free to let me know
Otherwise I'll hold off and save the pennies for a newbie. After having another chat with the tuner which was highly recommended on the coast
(Performance Injection Tuning Service) - the microtech should suit my application well.
I enjoy reading everyone's inputs so keep em coming!
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Boostn
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| posted on March 13th, 2007 at 11:05 PM |
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Ok.
one of the ways a Motech will make more power than a Microtech is:
True sequential fire of the injectors.
You can make a Motech fire an injector on that one cylinder when that intake valve is opening. And the same on the other ones. Not only controlling ms
points but also degree of start and stop of the injector. This all means more power, efficiency, economy, response etc, etc....
Another thing that you can NOT do with other computers is tune each cylinder separately.
Sometimes due to manifold design, runner lengths, compression, or whatever the reason one or more cylinders can run slightly leaner than the others.
So you don't have to richen all of them up and lose power, you correct the mixture in the lean ones to make the engine all even.
Have a look a t the V8 boys in the US making over 3000 hp and you will see a probe in each exhaust runner.
Microtech knows where the engine is but does not know what the opening valve is doing on each cylinder. But the way I see it on a turbo engine like
mine, does it really matter??????
once again Microtechs are good enough.
VOLLKOMMEN ART
nick@vollkommenart.com
Speed and Style
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56astro
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| posted on March 13th, 2007 at 11:12 PM |
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When the engine is running at full tilt, the injectors should be running close to 80-90% duty cycle.
Therefore when you consider the injector is open 80-90% of the time, the engine is spinning at over 6000rpm, and the injector is not placed
immediately at the back of the inlet valve (in the case of VW 100mm or more at best), then sequential injection really means diddly-squat.
Sequential injection really only comes into its own at low engine speeds.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
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vw54
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| posted on March 14th, 2007 at 06:07 AM |
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| Quote: |
If anyone comes across a reasonably priced one feel free to let me know
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Alan
expect to pay around $800 or so fora S/Hand Microtek thats what there going for
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on March 14th, 2007 at 09:39 AM |
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Yep, that is what they seem to go for on ebay for the superseded model....I guess I will end up saving a few hundred extra and go with the LT-10 brand
new. (of course plans can change).
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76bug
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| posted on March 14th, 2007 at 11:33 AM |
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hi Alan,
if u do see a second hand ltx8 factor in the reconfig costs its about a few hunddred bucks
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on March 14th, 2007 at 02:57 PM |
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Yeah I did consider that after talking to the tuner - makes it even more viable to purchase new and get it roughly mapped before I receive it. Then
spend the $ on fine tuning.
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on March 14th, 2007 at 03:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Boostn
Ok.
one of the ways a Motech will make more power than a Microtech is:
True sequential fire of the injectors.
You can make a Motech fire an injector on that one cylinder when that intake valve is opening. And the same on the other ones. Not only controlling ms
points but also degree of start and stop of the injector. This all means more power, efficiency, economy, response etc, etc....
Another thing that you can NOT do with other computers is tune each cylinder separately.
Sometimes due to manifold design, runner lengths, compression, or whatever the reason one or more cylinders can run slightly leaner than the others.
So you don't have to richen all of them up and lose power, you correct the mixture in the lean ones to make the engine all even.
Have a look a t the V8 boys in the US making over 3000 hp and you will see a probe in each exhaust runner.
Microtech knows where the engine is but does not know what the opening valve is doing on each cylinder. But the way I see it on a turbo engine like
mine, does it really matter??????
once again Microtechs are good enough.
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You will get more power from an engine using BATCH fire than sequential.Sequential comes into it's own for fuel economy and smoothness of engine
operation. For "balls and all" power go batch fire.For economy and lower end engine operation (low revs) go sequential.
tssnq.com.au
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