| [ Total Views: 6897 | Total Replies: 33 | Thread Id: 68441 ] |
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 tazbo28
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| posted on April 7th, 2008 at 05:58 PM |
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Fuel Problems!! ej25 71 super...
New to the forums after reading a wealth of info on the site.
Heres my problem. Ive had everything setup and had my car running already. the car starts and idles fine. but if i hit the throttle too quick, the
engine chokes. then back to a normal idle. if i roll slowly on the throttle it runs normal.
soooo... i drove it around the corner and onto a straight street, floored it WOT through 2nd and third. as wonderful as it felt, the car just would
start choking under any kind of load after that. all the way back to my drive way. i could barely get it up the driveway cause the motor was bogging
and choking.
i checked all my lines-no kinks anywhere. im using aluminum 5/16" lines to the motor from a walbro 255 pump. i have a 1/2" output on the tank and
1/2" hose to a surge tank. then 5/16" to the efi pump from the surge. the pump turns on normally as it should and doesnt sound to be struggling. but
when i got back from my drive i could hear some slight choking coming from it.
quick question - is there a huge difference between the intank pumps and in-line pumps? can they both be interchanged? i modified the intank pump
inlet with a 5/16" barb to use the pump out of tank...is this bad?
it seems like my system chokes out when pushing the throttle too quickly. so my only thoughts are that i have a bad pump or i need a charge pump, like
a facet. any thoughts?
some extra info- ecu is a Stinger 4424 aftermarket ems.(map provided by outback)
-no exhaust (only primary pipes-extremely loud!!)
-no air filter while testing(too much air???)
-replaced t-stat with open ring from outback(rad fans arent coming on at all for some reason?)
ive attached some pics of my project
i didnt know what that plug on the bottom of the tank was for, so i used it to plumb a new 1/2" barb.
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1303Steve
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| posted on April 7th, 2008 at 06:07 PM |
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Hi
Do you have the VSS hooked up, your ECU could have logged a fault. Have you done a fuel pressure test. That plug in the tank is for access to a tiny
in tank fuel filter, these were deleted in later bugs.
Steve
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tazbo28
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| posted on April 7th, 2008 at 06:11 PM |
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i was told the vss was not needed with the aftermarket ecu. besides there were no connectors on the loom for one when i got the whole thing from
outback. im pretty sure there is pressure in the line. one full day after driving it i removed the pressurized hose and it was still fully pressured
with fuel.
was looking at local parts stores, would this work well as a charge pump....or maybe even a 25gph pump from facet?
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=PUR&MfrPartNumber=...
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rocknrob
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| posted on April 7th, 2008 at 06:32 PM |
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I wouldn't worry about getting enough fuel...how big is your surge tank? on my kombi I kept the standard outlet...only about 3mm but built a 5 litre
surge tank which goes underneath...never a problem
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 7th, 2008 at 06:44 PM |
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If the engine currently pulls well but stumbles on sudden throttle opening then is hardly going to be lack of fuel pressure.
Get into your fuel maps and see if there is sufficient 'Accellerator Pump" wound in. I cant remember what EMS call this function tho.
Try increasing this amount.
The pissy 5/16" line feeding the efi pump is a no-no and should be at least the same diameter as the efi pump inlet or 12mm to be sure.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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tazbo28
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| posted on April 8th, 2008 at 12:45 PM |
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ok, so the charge pump is before the surge. also the walbro is now setup the way it is supposed to be setup in the surge tank. the charge pump is a
facet- flowing 25 gph. i am now almost 100 % sure it cant be the fuel. the surge stays filled and the lines stay pressured.
i am using the stock plugs. this could be my main source of probs. i did gap them the best i could to .025 just like the shop told me to. i didnt see
much residue on them so i didnt think theyd be that bad. but it seems as though there might be some misfiring going on. i had it running again today.
it started right up, only this time the motor would stutter at very slight throttle pushes, until it wouldnt even idle. a couple of times i got very
loud backfire from the exhaust. i checked everywhere i could for a vacuum leak, found nothing. when the engine shuts off i can here some whispering
coming from the fuel pressure regulator. could the stock line going to the stock outlet not be letting the fpr do its job right?
thanks, vince
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tazbo28
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| posted on April 10th, 2008 at 10:09 AM |
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aaa the saga continues!!
So i bought the new spark plugs. the guy recommended bosch so thats what i got. 6.99 per plug. not sure if thats cheap or not. but he also said no
need to gap them either so i didnt.
here thay are.
also when i pulled the old plugs off this is what i had found...2 broken.
so after placing the new plugs on the car i stared it up ad ran it for a while. it stayed on idle for a bit longer than before though. i still had the
throttle issues if i hit it too quick though. it idled better so i decided to drive it. to my surprise it ran alot smoother than before when i kept it
under 1/2 throttle all the way up to about 4k. it ran well for about 5 mins of driving. after that, same issues. i hit the throttle wide open once and
it didnt pull after about 4500. it just choked out again. got back to the driveway. left it idling for a while. after a couple of min it started to
cut out a little. then it just died. and now wont stay on at idle. this seems to go away however after leaving it for a while.
i noticed my surge tank was below half though. even with a charge pump! i dont have a line on my surge venting any pressure however. im wondering if i
should connect my return line to it, to supply more fuel. i started with it being totally full.
my suspicions are coming back to the fuel system. possibly the fpr is not allowing the built up pressure to escape quick enough after running under
heavy loads. or maybe its got a leak and isnt allowing the proper pressure to build up? i have a feeling my stock line, as a return, has something to
do with it. i have it routed to the stock outlet.
i dont think outback would give me an incorrect map. theyve been doing this for years.
anywho, heres a vid of my startup i put on youtube. it shows my fast and slow throttle responses ive been getting. you can see more of the engine
setup . sorry for the poor angles...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA26Qu58tpM
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ian.mezz
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| posted on April 10th, 2008 at 11:05 AM |
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flat spot
it sounds like a flat spot , like not getting the correct amount of fuel or dirty fuel, check the fuel pressure , maybe the injectors are blockd
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pete wood
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| posted on April 10th, 2008 at 11:57 AM |
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mmm, I had some issues with my EJ25 refusing to start when warm and idling some years back. I traced it to the crank angle sensor. I'd check this
out. You can use the same sensor off any EJ motor. I got a one cheap from a wrecker. With the idling, also check the idle stepper motor. Mine died
too.
Sorry, can't help with aftermarket ECUs as I run the stocker.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 10th, 2008 at 12:56 PM |
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I can see the problem. You have the fuel return line back to the main tank don't you?
You can't do that, or you will have problems. The EFI pump is a very high flow pump. Normally it will run the same flow rate regardless of what's
the engines doing. The fuel is pumped through the supply line, the fuel rail, the pressure then gets regulated by the regulator, and any unused fuels
goes back through the return line. The flow rate in the supply line stays high in all situations, and the flow in the return line only reduces when
there is lots of fuel going through the injectors.
If the return goes back to the main tank then the full flow rate of the EFI pump has to go from the main tank to the surge tank. This flow is higher
than your charge pump can handle. The charge pump will actually be a restriction.
Have you read my surge tank thread?
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1303Steve
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| posted on April 10th, 2008 at 02:16 PM |
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Hi
You also need a return from the surge tank to main fuel tank, that way your charge pump pushes fuel into it the whole time without any resistance,
with any excess flowing out of the top of the surge tank back into the main fuel tank.
Wes said to run your return line from the motor back into the surge tank, he has lots of experince with this subject and his cars works on a daily
basis.
In my old WBX bug I put the return line from the motor back into the fuel tank, my reasoning was to put the fuel which has been heated by compressing
in fuel pump and by heat in engine bay and fuel rails back into a larger body of fuel in the main tank. I ran a Carter lift pump to fill the fuel
surge tank.
Steve
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 10th, 2008 at 04:14 PM |
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This is the surge tank thread;
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=9938
Here's some quick calc's to make things really obvious. The Walbro 255 (HP) pump pumps 255L/h (hence the name) which is 4.25Lpm.
The facet (LP) pump only does 25Gph which is 1.6Lpm.
Clearly the HP pump is massively outflowing your LP pump. At idle nearly that entire 4.25Lpm from the HP pump is trying to go all the way around the
fuel supply line, fuel rail, return line, tank, LP pump and finally back to the surge tank. The facet LP pump will restrict this flow.
Now Steve ran a similar set-up, but used a carter lift pump. These are far superior to the facet units, as they flow 100Gph or 6.4Lpm. So the Carter
lift pump outflows the HP pump and the excess then flowed from the surge tank back to the main tank. This is a very good set-up. It uses the main tank
to cool the fuel.
With your set-up you can modify it to be like mine, which also works but with the cheaper facet pump. In my set-up it looks like this;
Basically the HP pump pumps from the surge tank, and returns to the surge tank. The only issue is the temperature of the fuel in the surge tank gets
hot if it continues to only recycle in this loop. So I use the facet pump to pump from the main tank, to the surge tank, and have a return line go
from the surge tank to the main tank. So the LP pump does a secondary loop and circulates the fuel from the main tank to the surge tank and back
again. This evens out the temperature of the fuel in both tanks and ensures the fuel in the surge tank doesn't get too hot.
In my original set-up I didn't have the LP pump, so the temp of the fuel in the surge tank got hotter and hotter until the engine would start cutting
out.
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gazman
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| posted on April 10th, 2008 at 06:01 PM |
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Our setup is similar to Wes'-
We used the ever popular VL efi pump and a Holley red low pressure pump.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 10th, 2008 at 08:40 PM |
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Yep, that's what mine is. I did put a glass rebuildable filter in front of my facet pump as the facet pump is very sensitive to metal particles (from
rust in the main tank) as the particles stick inside the pumps magnetic center and stop it from moving. The more modern black plastic facet pumps (as
shown in the pics in this thread) come with a little metal pre-filter to stop problem, but it is small and you can't see when it's dirty.
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tazbo28
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| posted on April 11th, 2008 at 04:23 AM |
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wow so much awesome info!!
i really appreciate every bit of it guys. thanks. im just glad to see someone is willing to help.
im not sure why i didnt run this setup in the first place. seeing as how this is the setup that i first saw when learning about surge tanks. i guess
thats what a whole lot of bad info will do to your project. i guess you live and you learn. so ill try this out and report back with my findings.
again, i appreciate all the great info. thanks a bunch
vince
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1303Steve
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| posted on April 11th, 2008 at 08:09 AM |
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Hi Vince
Your obviously in the US, where abouts are you? While your sorting out your current woes you might look at ways to keep the fuel lines cool as they
will pick-up some heat from the radiator.
Steve
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 11th, 2008 at 09:12 AM |
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I was thinking about bringing that up. The fuel lines and in particular that surge tank won't like the heat off the fuel tank. Neither will the fuel
tank itself really. If you can put a deflector from the back of the radiator that extends down past the main tank it would help. And put the surge
tank somewhere away from the heat.
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tazbo28
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| posted on April 11th, 2008 at 03:52 PM |
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well as you can see in my earlier pictures i do have a rear shroud that covers the back of the radiator and routes the air down under the car. i
thought of placing the surge tank in the passenger compartment or maybe even in the trunk area behind the rear seat. but this would mean placing it
farther away from the main tank. and getting lots more 1/2" hose to run that distance. thats not cheap stuff either. i could place it below the rear
trunk area outside of the car near the starter-just bolt up to the bottom. i think there is enough space. but im not sure the facet will keep up this
far?
for now im just going to set it up the way you showed above and see it that makes any kind of difference. i believe the warm air from the radiator is
heating up the lines though. that may explain some of the loss in power later on after running for a few minutes.
im now using 3/8" hard lines to the back for feed. the original 5/16" line as a return to the surge, and then 5/16" line from the surge to the
filler tube on the main tank. also 1/2" line from the main tank to the facet and to surge.
these are the exact sizes Outback said to run. so if those dont work, it has to be something else. its just gotta be. ecu, a/f ratio...somethin.
btw...1303steve---im in rowland heights just 5min north of fullerton CA.
report back tomorrow guys. thanks again.
heres a vid of the drive before the cutting out, it ran rather smoothly. the popping is the headers. they were pretty loud...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An0-Hwtm2Xc
thanks, vince
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1303Steve
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| posted on April 11th, 2008 at 04:07 PM |
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Hi
It may be loud, but it still sounds like bug. So Vince are on SuperBeetlesOnly as well?
Steve
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pete wood
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| posted on April 11th, 2008 at 05:42 PM |
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I'm running an identical fuel system to wez on a DOHC EJ25. I use a facet pump. The natural gravity feed of the tank plus a surge tank means the
facet is fine.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by tazbo28
heres a vid of the drive before the cutting out, it ran rather smoothly. the popping is the headers. they were pretty loud...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An0-Hwtm2Xc
thanks, vince
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you were driving it like an old woman. you do know that motor will rev out to twice that? 
and how good does it sound at 6500rpm! 
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ian.mezz
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| posted on April 11th, 2008 at 10:34 PM |
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that just sounds like a car with no muffler thats maybe why he is was
not giving it to it Pete
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NUMNUTS
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| posted on April 11th, 2008 at 11:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
Yep, that's what mine is. I did put a glass rebuildable filter in front of my facet pump as the facet pump is very sensitive to metal particles (from
rust in the main tank) as the particles stick inside the pumps magnetic center and stop it from moving. The more modern black plastic facet pumps (as
shown in the pics in this thread) come with a little metal pre-filter to stop problem, but it is small and you can't see when it's dirty.
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that explains why I cooked 2 of these suckers....dirty tank !
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 11th, 2008 at 11:33 PM |
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If you pull the facet apart (the older metal type unit, not the new plastic one) you can clean out all the rust particles and then it will start
working again. They are essentially an electro-magnetic solenoid with a one way valve.
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tazbo28
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| posted on April 12th, 2008 at 07:02 PM |
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i was invited to supersonly by 'superman'. i met him at the annual top line meet.i guess hes the one that started it? i think i went on once and
that was it. i kinda fell outta the scene for a minute. but im gonna be driving this thing like a beast once its running! hopefully ill make it to the
meet again this year and maybe go on the cruise to vw classic. i had to miss it last time i went to the meet.
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tazbo28
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| posted on April 15th, 2008 at 05:46 PM |
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HOOOOORAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!
happiness and optimism has filled my soul once again. i feel as though a great weight has been lifted off my shoulders....so heres the story...
yesterday i finished setting up my surge tank at around 830 at night. I didn't really want to go to the trouble of placing it anywhere else on the
body, as i haven't got much time these days to work on the car. what with homework and all. so i decided to leave it where it was originally and
route my lines to it instead. i was able to run all my lines fairly smoothly and without kinks.
so there i was, at 9pm pretty clean for 4 hours on the car. i decided it was now or never. i put the key in and it started up like a champ! so i was
fairly excited to hear absolutely no hick-ups. but then, i heard a loud hissing sound coming from the front. it turned out to be the return from the
surge to the main tank leaking fuel!!! i quickly ripped everything apart and re-threaded the fitting. it took about 15 minutes then it was back
together. started it again and it started right up. when i was reconnecting the fitting i noticed the surge was filled all the way to the top with
fuel!!! this never happened on my previous setup it was working very well and keeping good pressure in the surge. at that moment a smile came to me so
big it could light up angels stadium!! i realized that this was my very problem all along. well i kinda had a hunch but you guys really helped to push
me in the right direction. many thanks to everyone.
so the first test run was around the block a few times. the first time was slow and "grandma"-like haha. i kept it under 3500. then on the third go
with no issues to speak of, i let it rip....
.....silence......the smile getting larger...then it turns into a laugh of insane happiness!!!! it was a feeling like none i had ever experienced in
my vw before! i rolled off the start easy on a long stretch of empty street....my foot shaking, grip tight on the wheel, then i just let into it....to
the floor!!! a split second later, the roar of the open-header beast just filled the streets and the neighborhood like a top fuel drag car....the tail
seemed to stay well-gripped till around 4500...thats when i noticed a very slight slipping sensation. it felt like i spun the wheels in first. but i
couldn't make it out cause i was being smashed back into my seat pretty hard...
needless to say it was exhilerating. i went for a couple more goes and then took the beast to the gas station for a fill. i noticed the temp was still
around 150-160ish now. i didnt really know what it should have been reading so i didnt really think anything of it. i let it rip on the way home so my
brother could witness what all my labor has come to over the past month and a half. he was excited and we both laughed. when i got back to the house i
went up the driveway no probs...let it idle for about 5 minutes. the temp got to about 175-ish about now. still no rad fan turning on at all. it
wasnt until i read the info here....
http://vw1302rsi.multiply.com/journal/item/3
....that i realized my system was running pretty cold the whole time!!! i assume that my setup and his are running similar power figures since we used
standalones and the same engine. only difference is that he used the Link system and i the Stinger. Outback told me its easier to tune than the Link,
with more fine tuning options and should be putting down close to 200hp to the wheel. plus they weren't selling the Link anymore either.
soooooo..... another question, now on the cooling system. are these temps normal? and should i worry about the rad fan. around what temp would trip
the fans ?? i havent contacted outback for this but im sure someone can give me a ballpark figure. I am using a radiator designed for a corvette. its
a 2-core as well. a monstrous looking thing. but it seems to get extremely hot to the touch after warming up the engine on both the inlet side and the
oultlet. im not running a t-stat either. just a modified 'ring' thing from outback. so i imagine it shouldn't overheat.
again, i thank you so much for all of your support and help guys. i will have a ripping awesome vid and pics coming up soon!!! stay tuned....
vince
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 15th, 2008 at 07:34 PM |
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Great to hear you've sorted your fuel issues. Just keep an eye on your PVC surge tank (that's what it looks like at least). Some PVC's don't like
some petrol blends and will become soft and/or swell. Other plastics go brittle and crack. PVC hates heat too, so be careful near the radiator.
So for the rest of the Australian's on the Australian forum :P , 150-160 deg F is 65-71 deg C. Yes that is on the cold side. You should really run a
thermostat. Depending on how the ECU is set those temperatures might have the engine running on the cold and rich maps a little. I guess outback will
know. Most of the engine wear occurs when the cylinder temperatures are going through the 50-70deg C range, where some of the nastier combustion gases
condense on the cylinder wall. That is why thermostat's keep the engine temp above this.
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1303Steve
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| posted on April 16th, 2008 at 12:35 AM |
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Hi Vince
You must be so pleased. I met Superman online in the mid 90s, I've never spoken to him but I regard him as a good friend.
I may have missed it, but what triggers your cooling fans? The ECU or a sender in the system? If its the ECU you should check what temperatures have
been set in the system. 175 is not very hot, the fans should come on around 200 or so. Good move feeling the coolant hose temperature, when they are
cold or only one is hot you have problems.
I agree with Wes about the thermostat, very necessary and I think Ive seen your surge tank design somewhere else on the net, keep an eye on it.
Steve
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pete wood
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Mood: upgrades = jackstands
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 05:38 PM |
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http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=61265&page=4
have a read of this. get the 85deg thermostat and pulled the flipper valve out of it. leave the hole the same size.
BTW, I know what you mean about brain melting acceleration. WHen I first got mine sorted it ripped the front gearbox mount in half it was so strong.
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tazbo28
Casual Dubber
Posts: 30
Threads: 4
Registered: April 7th, 2008
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| posted on April 27th, 2008 at 06:55 AM |
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UPDATE!!!!_ 4/26/08
ok so ive been doing a lot of nothing lately. it was my 24th birthday however on the 24th!!! so happy birthday to me!!!
well, i noticed my old surge tank had been leaking fairly bad due to me threading the barb to close to the rubber seal. so i replaced it with a model
that more closely resembles the one i had seen on the net earlier. this one had a flat top and a different seal method. i tapped the returns on the
sides rather than top this time and it seams to be running perfect. i now have my tank return running to both the filler tube and the bottom of the
main tank- mainly because im using the stock size outlet.
i took the car to a friends house about 4-5 miles away. ran like a dream. the only things left to do are clean up my wires and do an alignment and
replace my steering box. my new one has just been sitting here for about 3 months now. might just have my shop guy do it. whats a reasonable price to
replace this and the universal shaft you think??
i was going to take the car to California Speedway for the 1/4 mile drags today to test it out, but i found out they dont allow cars without a
muffler!! that sucks. plus they sold out race tickets at 7am!! oh well. i guess its Irwindale raceway next week then..
lots more pics...
the filter is way to big. i need a dome like filter so i can close the decklid fully...
2.5" piping to a bugpack muffler!
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Baja Wes
Bishop of Volkswagenism
V6 Baja Pioneer
Posts: 3119
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Mood: Content
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| posted on April 27th, 2008 at 10:36 AM |
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Good to see your going to put a muffler on there 
And is that thing registered?
Your notches in the body work for the dual cam heads graphically demonstrated how much those heads interfere with the body. 
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