| [ Total Views: 1556 | Total Replies: 20 | Thread Id: 73430 ] |
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 72type3wrx
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| posted on December 11th, 2008 at 09:19 AM |
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Any news on shortend sumps?
still need one,
1972 Type 3 Fast back, RS Turbo 2ltr, VF34/P20,
3" Exhaust, WAIC, Wolf 3D, Sard 540cc's, Swirl pot and VL Fuel pump, Apexi CAI, Custom VW 4spd with straight cut albins 3.87 R&P, stock brakes
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Brad
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| posted on December 11th, 2008 at 03:12 PM |
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What news are you after ?
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GTMac
A.k.a.: Andrew
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| posted on December 11th, 2008 at 08:29 PM |
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I think you should be more worried about your mention of "stock brakes" 
You after the extra capacity wing style? Brad didnt you have one for sale?
1971 Type 3 Fasty - EJ20T
I love 242HP sleepers. 
How many sets of lights does it take a $229k Carrera S to learn?
UPDATE: Cayman S, M3, B4 now added to the list. |
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Brad
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| posted on December 11th, 2008 at 09:18 PM |
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Yeah I have one of the Bug @ 5 Speed cast ones for sale, would happily swap it for a CVD one as I just want more clearance and the sealed oil return.
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guru
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| posted on December 12th, 2008 at 10:41 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
Yeah I have one of the Bug @ 5 Speed cast ones for sale, would happily swap it for a CVD one as I just want more clearance and the sealed oil return.
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More clearance & sealed oil return? Opps!!
I'd rather the cast alloy unit. Dont worry about oil surge and technical stuff, I want the LOOK
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pete wood
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| posted on December 12th, 2008 at 11:02 AM |
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ah guru, one day you'll learn the old saying... "chrome won't get ya home" 
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JVLRacing
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| posted on December 13th, 2008 at 07:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Jak Rizzo
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
ah guru, one day you'll learn the old saying... "chrome won't get ya home"
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neither will less oil volume.
Are there any Aussies that have one of these & have put some serious miles on there motor? Mine takes 6 litres of Oil, I pressume the Buggy Brad
type & Sherman one does as well. The German one just looks like a cut & shut job with no extra capacity catered for. Looks fantastic though,
but as Pete said...
72type3wrx, if u can do your own conversion, u can make your own sump.
regards
Jak
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x2 
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72type3wrx
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| posted on December 19th, 2008 at 11:59 AM |
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stock brakes was a joke guys!!
and i am soo lazy the dub has been off the road all year. thinks it more of a safety issue really, i feel safer knowing im in my echo and the dub is
in the garage. safer for me and the general population.
1972 Type 3 Fast back, RS Turbo 2ltr, VF34/P20,
3" Exhaust, WAIC, Wolf 3D, Sard 540cc's, Swirl pot and VL Fuel pump, Apexi CAI, Custom VW 4spd with straight cut albins 3.87 R&P, stock brakes
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bugat5speed
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| posted on December 28th, 2008 at 02:43 AM |
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@72type3wrx : have some sumps in stock again, but clearance is still "only 50 mms".
@ Brad: Once there was a well known guy from Australia who was very intersted in selling my sumps in Australia. This guy was the one who tried to talk
my products down all the time. When he remarked that the sumps sell into the market (even if he talks bad about them) he wanted to have exclusive
rights on selling them in Australia. As this was denied by myself the guy now has started again talking bad about the sumps.
@ all: the sumps have a clearance of 50 mm compared to the original sump. The cooling property is much better than of an original sump. Stability is
very good. Capacity of oil is 4,25 litres, which is 0,25 litres less than original and about 3/4 of a litre more than a shortened sump.
The normal price for the sump is 285 Euro.
For a group buying of 3 sumps in one order I offer a price of 228 Euro per sump plus freight (82 Euro for three).
228 Euro is 468 AUS $ (27.12.08)
This promotion is valid until the current stock of 6 sumps is sold.
Good luck on getting one at this unbeatable price!!!
Martin Bott
Bug @ 5-Speed
http://www.bugat5speed.de
info@bugat5speed.de
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Brad
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| posted on December 28th, 2008 at 09:08 AM |
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Martin, you would be correct that was me and from memory the discussion went along the lines of "Hey if I like your sump and import them I wanted to
be the distributor in Australia as it would compliment our range of conversion parts as if I was going to advertise them and carry your brand then I
wanted to make sure I got a return. You said NO and I said well it ain't worth doing as you wanted me to buy 5 at a time and then would still sell to
anyone direct (This was when I was working at CVD).
Since then I have actually bought a Bug @ 5 Speed sump as unlike yourself I like to actually have someone’s product in my hand before I comment on
it. Now I have it and I have looked at it I would not use it on my Car, simple. Since you mention your product as being better than others etc maybe I
should put a few things down here so people can get the good oil on what is what.
The Bug @ 5 Speed sump only offers 50m mm shorter than stock, The CVD one offers 85mm shorter than stock.
The Bug @ 5 Speed sump reduced oil capacity by 250ml (your figures), the CVD one increases it by 125ml.
The Bug @ 5 Speed sump has a centre mounted drain hold between baffles making it impossible to get all sludge and oil out of it, the CVD one has an
edge mounted bung allowing it to be flushed.
The Bug @ 5 Speed sump has no sealed oil return thus allowing aeration of oil upon return, the CVD sump retains the factory sealed oil return as per
SAE paper.
The Bug @ 5 Speed sump does not come with a modified pickup so this would be extra, the CVD sump comes with modified pickup so is a complete ready to
go kit.
The Bug @ 5 Speed sump has alloy cooling fines, the CVD sump has extra wings and surface area and I doubt either makes any real difference to engine
temp.
The Bug @ 5 Speed sump is cast and sold outright, the CVD sump is steel and used the factory Subaru sump as a staring point.
So which way would you go ?
I will post some current pictures of both sumps and take actual measurements of both today as the Custom Vee Dub unit has changed a little since the
guys started getting them laser cut and tig welded.
As for testing, I would say that both units have been around long enough now that there has been plenty of testing on both sides. I have done well
over 30 000 km in my own converted Van and the Geko has been tested in many hard conditions to ensure there is no issues with offroad use, angles etc
etc.
To date I have heard of no issues with either unit, so guess they both work fine. I know in the early days with version 1 and 2 of the CVD sumps there
were a few
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Brad
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| posted on December 28th, 2008 at 09:36 AM |
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Ok I just went and took "Actual" measuremenst of both a Bug @ 5 sump and a CVD sump. The stock measuremnet I have used is approx as the only sump I
have is an EJ 25T unit which has been cut. So it maybe a few mm's off.
Height is total height from mounting flange to base of sump.
CVD - 87mm
Bug @ 5 - 121mm
Stock - 156mm
CVD is 69mm shorter than the stock one
Bug @ 5 is 35mm shorter than stock
CVD one is 34mm shorter than the Bug @ 5 Speed one.
So what does that tell us ??
People who make sumps can't measure real well as CVD claimed 85mm and Bug @ 5 Speed claimed 50mm. ( I was the one who started the 85mm measuremnet,
so it was my stuff up)
CVD was 16mm wrong
Bug @ 5 Speed was 16mm wrong.
Keeping in mind that my stock measurement might be wrong and since both units appear to be 16mm different to what they quoted maybe the later sump is
a little shorter than the earlier one.( I will get an early one and measure it Monday)
Although the more I think about it the 85mm from the CVD unit may have started out as the sump was 85mm deep not 85mm shorter than stock. Either way I
will get CVD to change their ad's so there is no confussion, you going to change yours Martin ??
New pics of Version 3 CVD Sump
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ian.mezz
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| posted on December 28th, 2008 at 11:56 AM |
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this is my subaru sump its looks the same as shorted ones,
I am confused do you want more clearance or more oil capacity and i am asuming that all oil filters mount in the same spot and I am looking at the
sump clearance from the bottom of the ryco oil filter.
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Brad
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| posted on December 28th, 2008 at 12:36 PM |
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Hey Ian, how about posting a full picture of your sump ? Is it still stock ?
As Jak said we shorten them anf increase the capacity mainly for ground clearance. Teh other thing we do is make it out of thicker material as the
stock subaru ones aren't real strong and open up like a can of cat food if you hit things, which is a VW is very common.
The Version 4 sump for the turbo motor has some more changes over version 3 and will sit just above stock Subie headers. They guys are also looking at
doing a sump / header package to get max ground clearance.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on December 28th, 2008 at 02:09 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
Hey Ian, how about posting a full picture of your sump ? Is it still stock ?
As Jak said we shorten them anf increase the capacity mainly for ground clearance. Teh other thing we do is make it out of thicker material as the
stock subaru ones aren't real strong and open up like a can of cat food if you hit things, which is a VW is very common.
The Version 4 sump for the turbo motor has some more changes over version 3 and will sit just above stock Subie headers. They guys are also looking at
doing a sump / header package to get max ground clearance.
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I had a better look, mine still has the oil filter cooler on it opps
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STIDUB
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| posted on December 28th, 2008 at 03:32 PM |
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guys are also looking at doing a sump / header package to get max ground clearance, hey brad, any ideas when these will become an off the shelf item?
the refinement of the conversion products seems to be showing now with the looks of the sumps too 
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member 
STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less |
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bugat5speed
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| posted on December 28th, 2008 at 07:49 PM |
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one example: only by using my sump we could reduce the water temperature of a EJ 20 T with 285 PS in a 1303 Super Beetle by 12 degrees celsius. I
think that is saying enough. It does make a difference what material you use and if there are fins underneath or not.
It´s really interesting that you Brad bought one of my sumps (it´s really amusing me). It even more amuses my of how you now try to find arguments
to talk them down again. (-:
The height measured on the 2.5 sump is a reduced one. The old sumps from the EJ 20, EJ 22 are 50 mm taller than my cast sump. So Brad and my
measurements were correct.
Drain plug in the centre or at the side makes no real difference for me. It´s only a drop of oil that will stay inside. No argument for me!
It sounds very strong and tough to say "hey guys, the Aussie products are better". Can really only laugh upon such an opinion. That´s purest
protectionism and nothing else. We are in the year 2008 and not 100 years before. But I don´t mind it, cause I know that it´s only some traders and
other people (who support these traders) that have this opinion. They want to keep their products in the market and nothing else. Most people from
Australia that I´m dealing with do really think different and one day I will find somebody in Australia to sell my goods directly. It would be the
first important market where my goods are not sold directly. Until then there will be enough enthusiasts who see the difference in the goods and will
buy anyway. As most projects here in Europe are done with my sump, I really don´t mind at the moment.
Martin
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reub
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| posted on December 28th, 2008 at 08:07 PM |
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I bought a bugat5speed sump and wasn't happy with the casting quality and as such never fitted it to my car. To date I'm still running a stock subie
sump, which has never hit anything to date - mind you, my engine and tranny have been raised a fair amount, and as the car is low to start with I'm
extra careful anyway when driving...
Reub
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Brad
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| posted on December 28th, 2008 at 08:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bugat5speed
one example: only by using my sump we could reduce the water temperature of a EJ 20 T with 285 PS in a 1303 Super Beetle by 12 degrees celsius. I
think that is saying enough. It does make a difference what material you use and if there are fins underneath or not.
It´s really interesting that you Brad bought one of my sumps (it´s really amusing me). It even more amuses my of how you now try to find arguments
to talk them down again. (-:
The height measured on the 2.5 sump is a reduced one. The old sumps from the EJ 20, EJ 22 are 50 mm taller than my cast sump. So Brad and my
measurements were correct.
Drain plug in the centre or at the side makes no real difference for me. It´s only a drop of oil that will stay inside. No argument for me!
It sounds very strong and tough to say "hey guys, the Aussie products are better". Can really only laugh upon such an opinion. That´s purest
protectionism and nothing else. We are in the year 2008 and not 100 years before. But I don´t mind it, cause I know that it´s only some traders and
other people (who support these traders) that have this opinion. They want to keep their products in the market and nothing else. Most people from
Australia that I´m dealing with do really think different and one day I will find somebody in Australia to sell my goods directly. It would be the
first important market where my goods are not sold directly. Until then there will be enough enthusiasts who see the difference in the goods and will
buy anyway. As most projects here in Europe are done with my sump, I really don´t mind at the moment.
Martin
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Hi Martin,
I am happy that I have provided you some amusement, always happy to entertain. Anyway I should provide some more info since you have raised a few
other issues.
You state only by using your sump could you reduce the water temp by 12 degrees.. mate that just highlights two things, y ou never tried a CVD sump so
how would you know if it was only your sump that got any sorts of results ? You wouldn’t have a clue without trying other products.
Also shows an interesting theory on engine install, if you lower the water temp by 12 degrees then it must have been running pretty damn hot. The EJ
conversions I have done sit on factory temps all day without issue, even offroad on the beach under extreme load and ambient temps. If the engine is
correctly installed then adding a heap of extra cooling will do nothing as the engine coolant temp should be controlled by the thermostat and not the
cooling system as such. The cooling system should be designed to bring the temp back down as required and keep the engine coolant temp constant with
reduced flow governed by the thermostat. Your sump should make no difference at all as it will simply reduce the load on the cooling system and not
change the running temp of the engine. If it did then the engine would suffer increased wear and decreased engine life.
I purchased one of your sumps, well two actually as I believed the marketing hype and wanted to see it for myself. Once I unpacked the box and had a
good look at it I was happy that the CVD sump was a better product and yours had some issues I was not happy with so would not fit it to my dub.
Unlike yourself I like to see things for myself before passing comment, until I had one of your sump I couldn’t do that. Once I had decided that I
wasn’t happy with it, I cut it up, made some modifications and then packaged it up and sent it to my casting guy so he could look at making some
copies of modified unit on which I had addressed the areas of concern that I had. I liked the idea of mass production and think the two part design is
a great idea as it made it easy to fit. Hopefully if costing isn’t to bad I will have some cast ones of my own in the next few months with a larger
capacity, better oil return and side mounted sump plug. Also aiming at getting some height back so looking to keep it at around the 90mm overall
depth. If it doesn’t pan out, oh well that is R&D at its finest.
I don’t need to talk your sump down, the design does that all on its own, you have some good ideas and some issues that need to be addressed. As I
no longer work for CVD it makes no difference to me which way people go with their sumps. I just don’t want people to buy the sump uneducated as to
the facts as I did.
I will measure a stock EJ 20T sump tomorrow so I will have accurate measurements. I will also fill several stock sumps, a Bug @ 5 Speed sump and a CVD
shortened sump will water and get an exact capacity to the mounting flange. Once again this will give us accurate measurement.
The Version 4 CVD sump should be on the streets after some testing and cad work by about April. The guys at CVD have a 92 EJ 20T and my 2007 EJ 25T
for test fitting at the moment. The headers will be done with it as my EJ 25T needs them as well before I can get the barwork done. There isn’t to
many changes to be made but they do not want to loose any oil capacity and are working with a local performance exhaust shop to optimise the header
design.
I think the plan is to still do it on an exchange basis at this stage but this in under review as if they can do it outright there is a lot less
stuffing around. Ironically on solution would be to have a cast upper section and a steel lower section. Time will tell.
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bugat5speed
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| posted on December 29th, 2008 at 03:10 AM |
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Brad,
that´s just the way I thought it would be going. I already wanted to write something about copying in my last reply, but didn´t want to be unfair.
Now I know that I could have done it without feeling bad.
Sounds very good to make "modifications" on a product that you don´t like in general.
Thought you would not go the casting route at all. Isn´t it breaking to easy? Seems that the idea was not that bad. Really am looking forward to the
result of the changes. Be aware of international copyright. I will keep an eye on this. Australia is far away, but not too far for lawyers.
I never lost any word on your sump, so I did not make any comparisons to your sump, only compared to original.
@ reub-revhead: yes I know, the sump you received was not in line to your needs, but I think only a sump milled out of a piece of aluminium with
everything 200 % done would be in line to what you imagine. Your having high quality demands, but don´t want to spend money on this. The part is
sand-casted, and the price is in line to a sand casted product. I do agree that there were some problems with my former faundry, but since I found the
other one the quality problems were no issue at all. As you don´t use one of these rewelded sumps I think it´s because of the same reason. So it
might be that you are looking for something that either is not in the market at all, or is existing, but too expensive for you.
A casted sump for 285 Euro, or in the current promotion for 228 Euro is worth every single Cent of the amount that´s aked for.
Once more: for a group buy of 3 sumps the price is 228 € per unit plus freight.
If three come together and order I will also make separate packages and send them to the three customers. Freight per unit (single one) is 52 Euro.
Don´t let yourself be made insecure, ask those who have one of my sumps. Look for this thread and contact the guys who ordered in the past. Look on
side 2 of this category and ask the guys that posted there (Todd Triebler, Michael H, others). Already sent a good quantity to Australia the last
years and only Reub returned with complaints. All others were really satisfied. Do really understand that Brad tries to talk them down, but now I know
that he did take my idea to make a cheap copy. So it can´t be that bad.
Martin
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Brad
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| posted on December 29th, 2008 at 08:16 AM |
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Hey Martin, hehe now you are making me laugh. You are going to keep an eye on copyright on an unregistered international design on an item you copied
of Subaru in the 1st place. You do realise that to take out a copy right or patent costs a lot of $$$ and as I already have a shortened sump and had
one on the market before you I is going to be very interesting how you and your lawyer are going to proceed. Either way only time will tell.
You really do like jumping in with total crap though, I like your line about me "Making a Cheap Copy" ... since you haven't seen it, haveing bought
it and have no knowledeg of what changes I have made it is sort of like your other comments unsupported by facts of any sort. I doubt very much I will
be able to beat your price, then again if I improve the quality and design then I don't mind pricing it a little higher, better to pay a few $$$ up
front and not have a product with design and casting flaws.
I have cut up a lot of sumps, does that mean that thay have all been cheap copies ? Yours is just another one in the pile which has been cut up, no
biggy.
I find it interesting that you have a go at Reub for having high standards, interesting theory, "Customer don't like quality therefore customer
expects to much, customer is wrong ..." Maybe you should have just told him to expect casting imperfections, milling errors and mating surfaces that
were not square, then he would have been expecting what he got. Oh and yes I have two of your sumps and both were machined with non matching mateing
surfaces and casting imperfections. Nothing gasket sealant wouldn't fix, you have to use enough of it to get it to seal anyway so whats a bit more.
I have no issues with sand casting as long as the quality is there and the design is sound, strength is not a real issue as the factory one isn't
real strong anyway.
Oh well I better head off to work and get some measurements of real sumps at lunch time, I am sure your measurements are spot on I just want to check
for myself.
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Brad
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| posted on December 29th, 2008 at 02:06 PM |
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Ok so today I measured 6 different factory EJ sumps and the deepest I could find was 162mm and that was being very nice and using the highest part of
the sump near the drain hole. Without that it was only 159mm.
I did a quick measurement of capacity on teh CVD and the largest factory sump I coudl find and it was:
CVD - 5400 ml
Factory - 4900 ml
This was with the dip stick tube blocked and the water to the top of the mounting flange.
I realise this is a pretty useless measurement so I am going to fit a dipstick and fill them up to the full mark next time I am in the shed. Will also
use a more accuarte method of measuring the water as I only had a cup with 250ml marks on it.
I will also take some pictures of them all lined up cause everyone loves pictures and it keeps people honest.
To date though if you spend your $600 odd AUD you get the following:
Bug@5Speed - $337.00 EUR ($285 + $52) = $694.89 AUD on a Bug@5Speed sump you gain 35mm ground clearance and loose 250ml of oil capaicity and still
have to sort your own pickup
CVD - $605 AUD on a Custom Vee Dub Sump you gain 69mm ground clearance and gain 125ml of oil and get a modified pickup with the kit.
So if you are after better oil capacity and more ground clearance then the CVD one wins hands down.
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