| [ Total Views: 1780 | Total Replies: 33 | Thread Id: 84647 ] |
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 Anthiron
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 12:25 AM |
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Why does my axle nut keep coming un done?
My drivers side axle nut seems to have a nasty habit of coming loose every now and then. the passenger side seems fine however.
The thread ...although its a little worn doesnt seem to bad and it has a brand new nut on it. the cotter pin is always still in place but the nut is
still coming loose.
Is the nut jumping threads? has anyone had this problem. Should the drivers side tighten clockwise or anti clockwise? mine tightens clockwise.
This is really pissing me off.
Nicko
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68AutoBug
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 12:45 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Anthiron
My drivers side axle nut seems to have a nasty habit of coming loose every now and then. the passenger side seems fine however.
The thread ...although its a little worn doesnt seem to bad and it has a brand new nut on it. the cotter pin is always still in place but the nut is
still coming loose.
Is the nut jumping threads? has anyone had this problem. Should the drivers side tighten clockwise or anti clockwise? mine tightens clockwise.
This is really pissing me off.
Nicko
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Hi Nicko
I presume You are talking about the REAR axle nut....
they have to be be done up with a 5 foot piece of pipe over a socket bar...
I think its over 200ftlbs of torque... from memory..
and a local told Me that if its NOT done up to that torque they will keep coming loose....
that what he found...
I broke a good sidchrome 1/2 inch bar on mine...
cheers
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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Aussie Dubbin
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 01:49 AM |
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I think its more like 300, you need 3/4" and long braker bar,,, mak sure the wheel isn't rotating when you tighten it. make sure its tight... really
tight... then some
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dangerous
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 05:34 AM |
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Once the nut has come loose, the faces and spline in the drum will be damaged.
It will be very difficult to keep them tight unless the surfaces are smooth and square.
Take a good look at the spacers as well.
Also the nut must be able to be tightened against the drum with thread to spare.
What this means is that if the drum faces are damaged,
the nut will "bottom out" on its threads before it as fully clamped the drum
against the inner spacer.
I saw this recently when someone fitted late brakes to an early axle length,
and machined too much off the hub's snout.
Eventually the spline stripped completely smooth.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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HappyDaze
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 07:38 AM |
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Make sure that a 'soft' (mild steel) washer is not fitted between the drum and the axle. This can crush, and as it gets thinner, the nut will
loosen.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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 vw54
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 07:42 AM |
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yes as Dave said sounds like the spacer is missing between the drum and bearing and the axle nut is bottoming out
is the split pin is in place then this is the only way the drum can be loose
has some one been playing around wit hthe read brakes ???
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 matberry
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 08:31 AM |
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Bring it round, Nick, I can check it out if you wish.
As Dave said, prolly been loose before and damaged the faces or splines. Have you another drum to fit?
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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Anthiron
A.k.a.: Nicko McKay
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 10:37 AM |
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Hi guys.
thanks for the feedback. I am running long axles with early brakes using some spacers that Custom vee dub machined for me. i noticed the rear drivers
side was leaking a little trans fluid the other day so i cracked the nut off (which wasnt tight enough again) and cleaned up the brakes etc and re
tightened. I dont own a torque wrench but i have a 2.5 foot bar and a 1/2 inch 36mm socket and bar which i use and i wiegh 75 kilos jumping up and
down on the end of the bar.
this lasted about 2 weeks and its loose again. Come to think of it though i am not sure if there was a washer in between the drum face and the bearing
face.
the splines are pretty good and the drum looks to be fine however it is a drum i pulled off another car after my origional was damaged. that was some
time ago though.
i am just about to pull it apart again so i will make sure the big washer is in there and check the thread left once tight.
Matt i might take you up on that. I cant today as i have work, will you be home tomorrow?
Nicko
62/60 model bug eye baja bug, (Full Build in Progress)
1974 Chevrolet Luv
1970 MK2 Ford Cortina GT
1979 Yamaha RX125 Two Stroke tracker project.
2004 Harley Davidson Sportster XL Custom
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HappyDaze
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 12:27 PM |
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Just check - a file will do - to see that any washer, or spacer, is hardened.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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Anthiron
A.k.a.: Nicko McKay
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 12:48 PM |
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ok. I have put a brand new nut on, there is a thrust washer between the bearing and the drum, nut tightens with thread to spare. we shall see how this
goes.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the axle thread may be slightly off which is weakening the nuts ability to have maximum contact with the axle threads
as i torque it up.
time will tell.
Still keen to give you a look if you are free though matt.
Nicko
62/60 model bug eye baja bug, (Full Build in Progress)
1974 Chevrolet Luv
1970 MK2 Ford Cortina GT
1979 Yamaha RX125 Two Stroke tracker project.
2004 Harley Davidson Sportster XL Custom
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1500S
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 02:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Aussie Dubbin
I think its more like 300, you need 3/4" and long braker bar,,, mak sure the wheel isn't rotating when you tighten it. make sure its tight... really
tight... then some
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About exactly 217 ft lbs! And you only need a 2ft bar if you weigh a bit over 100 lbs (46 kg) if you stand right on the end of the bar. The main
problem with tightening up many threads is that people assemble them totally dry which increases friction. I don't advocate flooding with oil but
have a wet oily rag to wipe over the threads before assembly, especially under the contact face of the nut. If you don't, you may only be getting
60% of the required torque needed to keep it all together.
DH
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matberry
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 02:56 PM |
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^^^ 60%, try 14%, I've seen an increase of 700% in clamp force with lube alone!!!
Nick, be here tomorrow, but alway's better to give me a call as you never know if I get a call out or something. I'd have thought a 1/2" drive
breaker bar NOT to be enough in reality, considering the 217 ft/lb is all new components, I'd be going more like 300 ft/lb.
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1500S
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 05:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
^^^ 60%, try 14%, I've seen an increase of 700% in clamp force with lube alone!!!
Nick, be here tomorrow, but alway's better to give me a call as you never know if I get a call out or something. I'd have thought a 1/2" drive
breaker bar NOT to be enough in reality, considering the 217 ft/lb is all new components, I'd be going more like 300 ft/lb.
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A 40 % increase over manufacturers recommendations is quite a bit Matt!! 
Over the years there have been discussions regarding lubricated/not lubricated threads.
In my recent "past life" over 30 years I had quite a bit to do with teaching on subjects like the reduction of friction in machinery components.
Lubricating threads only gave a reasonable reduction of friction but the best results were given by the lubricating of the contact face of the nut or
bolt head. To hold the parts together we are relying on the elasticity/tensile strength of the fastener shank (axle in this case) and the strength of
the nut material and the thread in general.
If we go too much over the manufacturers torque we could pass the yield point of at least one of the threads regardless of whether they are new or
used. No doubt VW calculated the required clamping force to hold the hub on without play. The only way the hub can come loose is if (a) there
wasn't the correct torque in the first repaired place and (b) the faces of the hub/drum are out of square/parallel or grooved faces. Under the
normal torque the cast iron can't compress any different to when it was new.
I hope from an engineering point of view, the recommended 217 ft lbs will be sufficient to hold any hub on with standard components.
DH
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matberry
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 06:25 PM |
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Yep, can't argue, what you've said Dallas.
Regarding the clamp force, I've seen a test on a strain gauge going from 1 ton clamp at a dry install, to 3t with threads lubed to 7t with threads
and head lubed, no doubt similar to what you've been teaching (figures are a guide as from memory from many years ago).
As you know, bolt stretch is the governing factor for tensioning correctly, and I admit to not measuring the stretch of an axle, but from what I've
seen on working on many vw's is that thread deformation occurs up around 400ft/lb, and >300 is more likely to be a help for a worn or problem
axle.
Berg and Scat both increase torque with their crank gland nuts, and I'm sure I've read about the axle nut increase somewhere too.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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68AutoBug
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 06:58 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1500S
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Aussie Dubbin
I think its more like 300, you need 3/4" and long braker bar,,, mak sure the wheel isn't rotating when you tighten it. make sure its tight... really
tight... then some
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About exactly 217 ft lbs! And you only need a 2ft bar if you weigh a bit over 100 lbs (46 kg) if you stand right on the end of the bar. The main
problem with tightening up many threads is that people assemble them totally dry which increases friction. I don't advocate flooding with oil but
have a wet oily rag to wipe over the threads before assembly, especially under the contact face of the nut. If you don't, you may only be getting
60% of the required torque needed to keep it all together.
DH
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I like to use neverseize on just about everything...
and I've always wondered about the difference between lubricated and dry threads..??
I now there would be heaps of difference when lubricated..
otherwise its just friction....??
Glad I'm not a Mechanic.. lol
LEE
PS: once the nut is loose, You can get wear on the splines...
which will eventually wear away the splines on the brake drum... LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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ancientbugger
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 07:14 PM |
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I've just always done them up as tight as I could and haven't had any problems in the 40 odd years I've had VWs but now I'm going to have to start
thinking about how hard I jump on the extension bar, the friction involved and whether I oiled up the threads enough. Thanks a lot!!
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ancientbugger
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 07:17 PM |
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Sorry Matt, I also forgot about 'bolt stretch' and 'thread deformation' There's a lot to think about
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1500S
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 07:41 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Yep, can't argue, what you've said Dallas.
Regarding the clamp force, I've seen a test on a strain gauge going from 1 ton clamp at a dry install, to 3t with threads lubed to 7t with threads
and head lubed, no doubt similar to what you've been teaching (figures are a guide as from memory from many years ago).
As you know, bolt stretch is the governing factor for tensioning correctly, and I admit to not measuring the stretch of an axle, but from what I've
seen on working on many vw's is that thread deformation occurs up around 400ft/lb, and >300 is more likely to be a help for a worn or problem
axle.
Berg and Scat both increase torque with their crank gland nuts, and I'm sure I've read about the axle nut increase somewhere too.
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Could always go that bit further Matt without any problems. We did quite a bit of testing with students over the years with similar results as you
give percentage wise. I think most of our fellow Veedubbers would agree with us that you wouldn't increase the torque load on a head stud much over
recommended, however, how many heads have leaked through torquing it down with dry threads which means a much lower clamp force than designed. This
is most likely why some manufacturers (eg Ford etc) use the angular rotation after initial settling torque on the heads of their engines as it
overlooks any frictional resistance.
"ancientbugger posted on 6/7/2010 at 07:14 PM
I've just always done them up as tight as I could and haven't had any problems in the 40 odd years I've had VWs but now I'm going to have to start
thinking about how hard I jump on the extension bar, the friction involved and whether I oiled up the threads enough. Thanks a lot!!"
Ancientbugger, sorry mate if I tend to get "a bit technical" on some of this stuff but over the years I've seen too much machinery destroyed
through lack of feel. I see on this forum to fit things with a "FBH" as well as on a Yank forum that "if you can't fix it with a hammer, it's
electrical"!!
If we can teach some of our fellow Veedubbers some simple way to get a torque setting somewhere near designed specs so they don't destroy their
precious ride then we have achieved a suitable outcome. I must add that if we use some sort of impact force on a lever, the torque load can near
enough double so actually jumping on a long bar can have a disastrous effect on the components.
Gee, I sound like a bloody teacher!!
DH
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Aussie Dubbin
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 08:23 PM |
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Good info... but have you got a good example of correct/ close torque settings without a torque wrench?
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1500S
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| posted on July 6th, 2010 at 08:49 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Aussie Dubbin
Good info... but have you got a good example of correct/ close torque settings without a torque wrench?
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Yes! Simply TORQUE = FORCE x DISTANCE. If you use imperial then the distance is feet, metric the distance is metres but if the mass is given in kg
then you'll have to convert it to Newtons as the torque is generally given in Newton/Metres (Mass x 9.8 is near enough).
The example we may as well use here is a torque of 217 ft lbs. If we have a lever say 3 ft long then Torque/Distance = Force
217/3 = 72 lb. ie, measure along the bar 3 ft and apply this load on the bar and you have the correct torque.
To be a bit more metric ( but not totally as I haven't got a book in front of me with the Nm settings), if you weigh in at 100kg (220lb),
Torque/Force = Distance then 217/220 = 11.8 inches or near enough to 300mm. Place your big hoof 300mm out from the centre of the axle and stand on
the bar and you have the correct torque................ but all you mathematicians knew all that didn't you. Believe me, you can't argue with with physics and mechanics as long as you take into account the
variables, as in the case of threaded fasteners, FRICTION.
Hope this helps!
DH with nothing to do as it's too cold to pull a new windscreen rubber into the Notch tonight
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68AutoBug
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 posted on July 7th, 2010 at 12:03 AM |
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The other problem with torques.. without using a torque wrench
is for small bolts or nuts on small studs...
You just need to feel when they are tight...
as a long spanner on an 8mm bolt can usually strip or break the bolt if excessive force is applied...
the sump plate nuts are one case where extreme caution is needed.. and very often... lol
then again.... lol
the CV Joint bolts in IRS axles need to be done up very tight
much tighter than when using a 75 or 10mm allen key etc
these bolts are high tensile and very strong... and need to be tight...
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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Anthiron
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| posted on July 7th, 2010 at 12:44 AM |
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excellent information there DH and Matt.
I did not Lube the threads 
drove about 20 ks today and still tight.
Matt i have lost your number as a fone died on me recently. if you could PM me i will give you a call tomorrow afternoon if i am going to be able to
get down there.
Might be a good excuse to do some mountain biking in tewantin  Barry will
you be home? might drop in to say hi if you are.
thanks again guys.
Nicko
62/60 model bug eye baja bug, (Full Build in Progress)
1974 Chevrolet Luv
1970 MK2 Ford Cortina GT
1979 Yamaha RX125 Two Stroke tracker project.
2004 Harley Davidson Sportster XL Custom
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ancientbugger
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| posted on July 7th, 2010 at 09:16 AM |
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Nick, I am off tomorrow, I may even be awake (Germany v Spain at 4.30am)
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matberry
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| posted on July 7th, 2010 at 09:28 AM |
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Nick....at the bottom of all my posts !!!!
PM sent too
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Anthiron
A.k.a.: Nicko McKay
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| posted on July 7th, 2010 at 03:16 PM |
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Barry/Matt
Not going to make it down today. Ended up going to brisbane with a freind to help her buy a mazda
Going to come down tomorrow though mid/late morning so will give you a call matt.
Nicko
62/60 model bug eye baja bug, (Full Build in Progress)
1974 Chevrolet Luv
1970 MK2 Ford Cortina GT
1979 Yamaha RX125 Two Stroke tracker project.
2004 Harley Davidson Sportster XL Custom
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Anthiron
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| posted on July 14th, 2010 at 06:49 PM |
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Loose again 
62/60 model bug eye baja bug, (Full Build in Progress)
1974 Chevrolet Luv
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1979 Yamaha RX125 Two Stroke tracker project.
2004 Harley Davidson Sportster XL Custom
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dangerous
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| posted on July 15th, 2010 at 05:38 AM |
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axle must be bent if everything else is smooth and square.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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HappyDaze
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| posted on July 15th, 2010 at 08:32 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
Make sure that a 'soft' (mild steel) washer is not fitted between the drum and the axle. This can crush, and as it gets thinner, the nut will
loosen.
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Did you check this ????????
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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Anthiron
A.k.a.: Nicko McKay
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| posted on July 16th, 2010 at 06:21 PM |
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yeah no washer.
ordered a new Drum from classic yesterday.
if that doesnt work then i guess its new axle time
62/60 model bug eye baja bug, (Full Build in Progress)
1974 Chevrolet Luv
1970 MK2 Ford Cortina GT
1979 Yamaha RX125 Two Stroke tracker project.
2004 Harley Davidson Sportster XL Custom
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Anthiron
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Registered: October 1st, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Buderim QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Hell hath no fury like a womans scorn for sega.
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| posted on July 24th, 2010 at 02:57 PM |
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New drum on. Splines are nice and tight. 2 days now. Still good...........fingers crossed
62/60 model bug eye baja bug, (Full Build in Progress)
1974 Chevrolet Luv
1970 MK2 Ford Cortina GT
1979 Yamaha RX125 Two Stroke tracker project.
2004 Harley Davidson Sportster XL Custom
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