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Author: Subject:  counrty buggy suspension on baja
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posted on February 15th, 2011 at 08:57 PM
counrty buggy suspension on baja


Is it a good option to put country buggy suspension on a Baja. What are the good & bad points?
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posted on February 15th, 2011 at 10:54 PM



The front spindles are great, they give you almost 3" lift over standard with no change to suspension geometry or stiffness.

Using the CB swingaxle reduction box transaxle will give you lift at the rear, and far lower gear ratios. This means better crawling, but, depending on your tyre size you might not see much more than 100km/h flat out.

You will also have problems with the rear end tramping running the reduction boxes. And the back of the car will lift under acceleration instead of squatting like a normal car.
This can be a good and a bad thing while offroading, depends what situation you're in.

I have a set of CB spindles to put on the front of my buggy.
If you have the time/skills/money I would recommend converting the rear end to CVs and running the spindles on the front. The swingaxle with redux boxes, in my opinion, is not worth the hassles if you can afford to go to IRS.


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posted on February 16th, 2011 at 06:20 AM



Thanks I don't know much about suspension are the front spidles you are refering to the whole suspension for the front or only a certain part? What is country buggy suspension worth ? Irs sounds good, how do you get the extra lift with them? What is the cost of this? I would have a go at installing it myself.
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posted on February 16th, 2011 at 12:16 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by Redbackemu
Thanks I don't know much about suspension are the front spidles you are refering to the whole suspension for the front or only a certain part? What is country buggy suspension worth ? Irs sounds good, how do you get the extra lift with them? What is the cost of this? I would have a go at installing it myself.



Just the spindles, from the trailing arms out. I have heard that the link pins might need to be a different diameter, so that would be something to look into as well.

This is a CB spindle.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj298/baja53/DSCF0919.jpg


They only fit onto King and Link Pin front end vehicles, so if you have balljoint you have to get something else. What year model is your car? And do you know if it's balljoint or King and Linkpin?


Country buggy spindles are rare and very expensive. of the 1900 cars built only 800 odd were sold in Australia. Spindles normally sell from a minimum of $500 to well over a $1000 and often need a full rebuild. Good luck finding them if you don't have a set already.

"IRS" is a term used to describe the later model double jointed rear suspension. In reality swing axle is also an IRS suspension. But one is called swingaxle and one IRS to avoid confusion.

IRS suspension is very easy to lift, you just need to adjust the rear torsion bars a few splines until you get it sitting how you want it. Don't go with to much lift or you will ruin your down travel. IRS suspension doesn't really give you any more lift than the swingaxle suspension, it just does so in a much safer and better handling manner.

When lifted a swingaxle gets lots of positive camber at the tyres. This causes the car to be very twitchy to drive, and sometimes quite dangerous.

Converting to IRS is a very involved process. First of all you are going to need all the parts to make it happen. The gearbox, axles/cvs, diagonal trailing arms, spring plates, torsion bars etc etc.

Then you will need to weld pivot boxes onto the rear torsion housing in the right place. You will need a jig for this, and I'm not sure if it requires the body to be removed from the floorpan. Having it off would make the job a lot easier.
The shock towers also need to be modified to allow for full travel of the suspension.

Pivot boxes can be bought from the likes of CVD

http://www.customveedub.com.au/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=22 

They can also do the entire conversion for you

http://www.customveedub.com.au/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=23 


Now I have a few questions for you.

Firstly, could you update your profile information so we know where you are located? It's no use me recommending CVD if you are in Perth.

Can you post up some pictures of your Baja?
What suspension etc is it currently running?
What year model is it?
What do you intend to use it for?
Where would you like it to be and what are you aiming for?


I hope my rambling has at least displaced some information.


Smiley :cool:


PS - The above picture of the spindle was taken from Nils' build here
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=126314 

His Baja goes through a gradual evolution, he starts of with stock swingaxle/linkpin, goes to reduction box CB suspension, then up to IRS at the rear. The build is well documented and very informative. In my opinion easily one of the best Bajas in Australia. Might be a good read for you.




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posted on February 16th, 2011 at 05:29 PM



Read Nils'build what an excellent job he has done, would love something like that but my skills aren't that good. I have updated my profile, in the process of buying 58 baja, not signed & sealed yet, currently has stock suspension, option of counrty buggy front & rear suspension, hence my inquiry. It seems the cb suspension limits the road speed a lot and gives better low down grunt in the heavy stuff, is this right ? I would like to drive it on roads legally, say 50/50 off road - on road. Keen to do work on it myself, but the irs converion does seem to be a big job
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posted on February 16th, 2011 at 05:59 PM



i think it would be better to use 181 vw thing/ trekker parts, get them here or in europe. ball joint as well!



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posted on February 16th, 2011 at 07:31 PM



Is there much difference between country buggy & 181 thing suspension and price?
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posted on February 16th, 2011 at 07:50 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by vwjon
i think it would be better to use 181 vw thing/ trekker parts, get them here or in europe. ball joint as well!


This really isn't an option because the car is a king and link pin, and that would require a framehead swap. If you aren't confident doing an IRS conversion I wouldn't recommend attempting a framehead switch.

Unless you bought a later model car that is balljoint that's really out of the question.


I'm not sure on the prices on the Thing Spindles. They aren't as dear as the CB ones but still aren't very cheap. Plus you have to import them from America.

Probably buy your car to begin with, then you can start deciding on what you want to do with it/what needs upgrading.



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posted on February 16th, 2011 at 08:40 PM



The bloke is looking for $900 each for front & rear cb suspension, which adds a lot to the car price
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posted on February 16th, 2011 at 08:44 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by Redbackemu
The bloke is looking for $900 each for front & rear cb suspension, which adds a lot to the car price



Personally I wouldn't bother spending that much on the reduction box setup. If you can afford it buy the spindles.


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posted on February 16th, 2011 at 09:58 PM



Good advice Smiley

If you put CB spindles in the front but leave the rear swing, I think the car will have a very nose up attitude and will have trouble getting the back up enough.




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posted on February 16th, 2011 at 10:11 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by matberry
Good advice Smiley

If you put CB spindles in the front but leave the rear swing, I think the car will have a very nose up attitude and will have trouble getting the back up enough.


This also depends on your tyres sizes.

If you have 31"s on the back and the front at stock height with the spindles I don't think the front would be a great deal higher than the rear, but it all depends entirely on the height of your front wheels. And you could always tweak the back an extra inch or so to get them even.


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posted on February 17th, 2011 at 06:16 AM



Would that give enough clearance, how does it effect things if you have higher tires on the back than the front to get a better look/ride
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posted on February 17th, 2011 at 10:11 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by Redbackemu
Would that give enough clearance


Depends what you're using it for. As you said you only want to use it maybe half on road half offroad.


Quote:
Originally posted by Redbackemu

how does it effect things if you have higher tires on the back than the front to get a better look/ride


I currently have 31" on the back and roughly 25" tall wheels on the front of my Baja. My front end has adjusters that are screwed up about an inch or two. My car does have a little nose down attitude, so far I haven't had any handling problems etc. But if you have to much rake on the car it starts to throw out the front end castor, which can effect your handling


I'd say if you leave your front end stock except for the spindles. Raise your rear end an inch or so. Run 30-31" tall tyres on the rear, and 26-28" tall ones on the front. You should have a fairly level vehicle that will be quite capable offroad.

You will be pleasantly surprised by how well these little rigs perform offroad. My Baja is very basic, swingaxle rear, front height has a very small lift, small wheels up front and 31"s on the rear, 1300 single port engine. And I still manage to mess around on some pretty gnarly tracks and climb some big hills.

And even with my low front end (by offroad VW standards) I still have more clearance than a 4WD running 31" tyres. So if I go out with some friends that have 4WDs I have sometimes found that I have more clearance than they do and don't have to straddle ruts/avoid rocks as much.



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posted on February 17th, 2011 at 03:49 PM



In my opinion the reduction box's are the best improvement I've made to my Baja,

Before hand with the 31's, it had no low down grunt out bush and struggled at 100kph in 4th. The improved ground clearance and lower gearing is awesome on and off road, now it'll happily sit on 70mph and accelarates up hills.

I have a cut and turned front which matches the rear height nicely, sure spindles would be nice, but I'd hardly reccomend buying them over the rear end, the front is easy to get up high,

you need clearance at the rear (under engine) and the only way on a swing axle is to use redux, otherwise you'll end up with a stupid amount of positive camber trying to achieve it.

But the biggest advantage in my opinion would be the gearing, It's great now, I can't believe how much better it is to drive.


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http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j92/phatvw/IMG_3828.jpg

After........
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j92/phatvw/IMG_3975.jpg




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posted on February 17th, 2011 at 06:50 PM



Smiley what year is your Baja ? do you have any photos you could post?
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posted on February 17th, 2011 at 10:26 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by Redbackemu
Smiley what year is your Baja ? do you have any photos you could post?


It's a 1965 on a 1972 superbug pan that's been converted to King and Link Pin.


My build diary is here if you want to have a long read. Of course it's still a work in progress like all VWs :D

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=1 


And here's some pictures of the last 9 months since I finished her.


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/Alyce%20the%20Baja/P1030929.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/30-05-10%20-%20Mt%20Mee%20Trip/wes_0026.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/30-05-10%20-%20Mt%20Mee%20Trip/s_dscf2301.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/30-05-10%20-%20Mt%20Mee%20Trip/s_100_7173_001.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/30-05-10%20-%20Mt%20Mee%20Trip/s_100_7146.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/Alyce%20the%20Baja/P1040038.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/30-05-10%20-%20Mt%20Mee%20Trip/s_dscf2254.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/30-05-10%20-%20Mt%20Mee%20Trip/s_dscf2290.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/27-12-10%20-%20Offroading%20at%20Stoney/SAM_0676.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/Offroad%20in%20Gladstone%2027-11-10/SAM_0547.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/Offroad%20in%20Gladstone%2027-11-10/SAM_0558.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/Offroad%20in%20Gladstone%2027-11-10/DSC_0002-11.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/Offroad%20in%20Gladstone%2027-11-10/DSC_0022-1.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/29-08-2010%20-%20Kemp%20Beach%20Day%20Trip/P1040179.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/29-08-2010%20-%20Kemp%20Beach%20Day%20Trip/P1040164.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/04-01-11%20-%20Offroad%20at%20Stony/SAM_0768.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/04-01-11%20-%20Offroad%20at%20Stony/SAM_0781.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/Alyce%20the%20Baja/SAM_0788.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/Alyce%20the%20Baja/SAM_0801.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/29-08-2010%20-%20Kemp%20Beach%20Day%20Trip/P1040189.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/Alyce%20the%20Baja/SAM_0796.jpg


http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/smileyman1968/29-08-2010%20-%20Kemp%20Beach%20Day%20Trip/P1040177.jpg


I just realised that's a lot of pictures.

Enjoy.



Smiley :cool:




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posted on February 18th, 2011 at 10:21 AM



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posted on February 18th, 2011 at 08:10 PM



You obviously give the baja a fun and adventurous life smiley!
How do you attach so many photos in one post. I can only attach 3 at a time.




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posted on February 19th, 2011 at 02:44 PM



Great info looks like you have done a power of work Smiley, have you kept a record of your costs not including labour? DO you know how many hours you spent on it? What would it be worth now ?
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posted on February 19th, 2011 at 03:25 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by baghall
You obviously give the baja a fun and adventurous life smiley!
How do you attach so many photos in one post. I can only attach 3 at a time.


And it's only 9 months old!! Poor thing, I've been taking it easy the last month or so because the engine is very much on the way out. And I need it to last until I build a replacement.


Pictures are done using a Photobucket account.

You get the link for the picture and put [img] [/img] either side of it.
So it looks like something like [img]link[/img] Then that puts the picture in for you. Can put as many as you want.



Quote:
Originally posted by Redbackemu
have you kept a record of your costs not including labour?


I have a big pile of receipts sitting all over the top of my desk, haven't really been bothered to add it all up.


Quote:
Originally posted by Redbackemu
DO you know how many hours you spent on it?


I honestly have no idea. In the last 3 weeks when I was putting it together before rego I spent probably 6-10 hours on it every afternoon after work plus every waking second of the weekend. I did have a heap of help prepping it for paint from a friend.
But there are a lot of hours in it, all the small jobs add up and take 3 times as long as you expect. When I do my buggy build I might try and keep track of the hours I do on it.


Quote:
Originally posted by Redbackemu
What would it be worth now ?


I don't how many it would be worth, when I first finished the car I probably could have insured it for maybe $10000 tops. It's probably a bit less than that now because she's a bit knocked around and paint is scratched/chipped, fibreglass has cracked, engine is rooted etc.

But honestly the car is priceless to me, it has given me so many great memories and I've only had it nine months! Those pictures are just a small number out of the thousands I have. I've met some great people and had fantastic experiences along the way, all thanks to this car, I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.



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posted on February 21st, 2011 at 08:03 PM



Just been reading slowly thru your log, just blows me away the work you have done, great insperation, where did you get all the info on the work you have done from ? I think I will invest in a new welder after seeing all your welds, I only have an old hand me down stick welder from my father, what sort of welder did you use ?
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posted on February 21st, 2011 at 10:34 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by Redbackemu
Just been reading slowly thru your log, just blows me away the work you have done, great insperation, where did you get all the info on the work you have done from ? I think I will invest in a new welder after seeing all your welds, I only have an old hand me down stick welder from my father, what sort of welder did you use ?


Aww shucks. Thanks man.

The info on the work I have done? I had a lot of help from the people on here. Ask as question in the tech section and you get lots of answers. I also had a lot of help from Andrew Westwood while he was in Yeppoon, especially with the framehead swap. The rest I just winged it.

The welder I have is is a 175 WIA Mig. It wasn't cheap but worth every cent when I use it.


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24.0.00012302SELECT id FROM ubb_banned WHERE ((ip1 = '3' OR ip1 = '-1') AND (ip2 = '231' OR ip2 = '-1') AND (ip3 = '230' OR ip3 = '-1') AND (ip4 = '177' OR ip4 = '-1')) AND NOT (ip1 = '-1' AND ip2 = '-1' AND ip3 = '-1' AND ip4 = '-1')
25.0.00040913SELECT fid, type, name, fup, status, private, userlist, password FROM ubb_forums WHERE private != '5' AND private != '3' AND private != '2' AND userlist = '' AND password = '' AND status = 'on' ORDER BY displayorder
26.0.00011897SELECT themeid, name FROM ubb_themes
27.0.00082111SELECT name, template FROM ubb_templates WHERE name IN ('functions_bbcode', 'functions_bbcodeinsert', 'functions_smilieinsert_smilie', 'functions_smilieinsert', 'viewtopic_reply', 'viewtopic_quickreply', 'viewtopic', 'viewtopic_invalid', 'viewtopic_modoptions', 'viewtopic_newpoll', 'viewtopic_newtopic', 'viewtopic_poll_options_view', 'viewtopic_poll_options', 'viewtopic_poll_submitbutton', 'viewtopic_poll', 'viewtopic_post', 'viewtopic_post_email', 'viewtopic_post_site', 'viewtopic_post_icq', 'viewtopic_post_aim', 'viewtopic_post_msn', 'viewtopic_post_yahoo', 'viewtopic_post_search', 'viewtopic_post_profile', 'viewtopic_post_pm', 'viewtopic_post_ip', 'viewtopic_post_repquote', 'viewtopic_post_report', 'viewtopic_post_edit', 'viewtopic_post_delete', 'viewtopic_post_attachmentimage', 'viewtopic_post_attachment', 'viewtopic_post_attach_noborder', 'viewtopic_post_attimg_noborder', 'viewtopic_post_sig', 'viewtopic_post_nosig', 'viewtopic_printable', 'viewtopic_printable_row', 'viewtopic_multipage', 'viewtopic_post_attachment_none', 'viewforum_rules', 'viewtopic_post_blog', 'viewtopic_post_rpg', 'viewforum_mpn_info', 'viewtopic_next_prev_links', 'viewtopic_captcha', 'css', 'error', 'footer', 'footer_querynum', 'footer_load', 'footer_phpsql', 'footer_totaltime', 'header', 'message', 'meta_tags', 'shadow', 'shadow2')
28.0.00018406SELECT t.tid, t.fid, t.subject, t.views, t.replies, t.closed, t.topped, l.uid as lp_uid, l.username as lp_user, l.dateline as lp_dateline, l.pid as lp_pid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid WHERE t.tid = '88766'
29.0.00015187SELECT * FROM ubb_forums WHERE fid='60' AND status='on'
30.0.00013995SELECT code, url FROM ubb_smilies WHERE type = 'smiley'
31.0.00007200SELECT find, replace1 FROM ubb_words
32.0.00013304SELECT id, title, posts, stars, allowavatars, avatarrank FROM ubb_ranks
33.0.00012803UPDATE ubb_threads SET views = views+1 WHERE tid = '88766' LIMIT 1
34.0.00021696SELECT COUNT(pid) FROM ubb_posts WHERE tid = '88766'
35.0.00513387SELECT t.tid as t_tid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_threads o ON o.tid = 88766 LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts x ON x.tid = o.tid WHERE l.dateline < x.dateline AND t.fid = '60' ORDER BY l.dateline DESC LIMIT 1
36.0.00488710SELECT t.tid as t_tid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_threads o ON o.tid = 88766 LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts x ON x.tid = o.tid WHERE l.dateline > x.dateline AND t.fid = '60' ORDER BY l.dateline ASC LIMIT 1
37.0.00014806SELECT vote_id FROM ubb_vote_desc WHERE topic_id = '88766'
38.0.00020194SELECT pid FROM ubb_posts WHERE tid = '88766' ORDER BY pid LIMIT 0, 30
39.0.00024605SELECT * FROM ubb_attachments WHERE pid IN('826592', '826612', '826630', '826670', '826719', '826728', '826756', '826772', '826785', '826787', '826810', '826817', '826843', '826870', '826908', '826940', '826984', '827041', '827136', '827200', '827206', '827527', '827573')
40.0.00082707SELECT p.*, m.*,w.time FROM ubb_posts p LEFT JOIN ubb_members m ON m.username = p.author LEFT JOIN ubb_whosonline w ON p.author = w.username WHERE p.fid = '60' AND p.tid = '88766' ORDER BY p.pid ASC LIMIT 0, 30