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Author: Subject:  sound deadening my new (old) beetle
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posted on April 12th, 2011 at 02:41 PM
sound deadening my new (old) beetle


Hi All,
I am a newbie and probably posted in the wrong area, please direct me in the right direct if I have.
Anyway, we want to sound deaden the back area behind the back seat in our 1971 bug.
Looks like dyamat is the way to go, but way to expensive for our budget.
saw chris from classic veedees in the states using a peel and stick aluminuim film with has rubber and tar in it.
I Found some stuff at bunnings called stop leap (looks the same of the stuff on the classic veedees u tube video. Made of rubber and tar and has an alum seal, peel and stick.
Has anyone used any of this type of stuff, does it work or am I wasting time and should just go for the dynamat.
Also have new carpets for the car, should be we laying some type of felt under the carpet before placing it in.
any suggestions would be appreciated.
thanks
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posted on April 12th, 2011 at 02:54 PM



http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=86816 

i use dynamat in my car works wonders but as you said its not cheap. there are other options, i hear the similar product from jaycar is good as is the one in the link above.
cheers barls




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posted on April 12th, 2011 at 08:23 PM



We sell dynamat and q-mat, tried and tested quite a few and found these to be the best.

Can supply at a great price but freight will kill you as a box weighs 10kg!!

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posted on April 12th, 2011 at 08:31 PM



Anything will be better than nothing! I bought some sound deadening material from Autobarn. It consists of two layers of grey flecked felt with a layer of bitumen in between and came in a roll of about 900mm by 1200mm or so for $75. I put it on the rear firewall and parcel shelf area as you're proposing. It's definitely made the car quieter than it was with no sound deadening, but it's still pretty loud. Dynamat would probably be quieter, but at a significant increase in cost and weight.



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posted on April 13th, 2011 at 07:38 AM



Thanks for the responses.

Will have a think and do some research, need something for the roof too before we replace the headliner which I am dreading to do, doesnt look too easy!
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posted on April 13th, 2011 at 07:44 AM



http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi  m



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posted on April 13th, 2011 at 07:58 AM



Found this sound/vibration absorber,NSL foam,cheap, about $10/m2.


http://www.pjbowers.com.au/nsl_foam.html 
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posted on May 29th, 2011 at 04:47 AM



Dynamat is too expensive for what it is. Yea it may work but the cost is stupid. In Oz we are at a loss for good competition for products like this but similar effects can be had cheaply.

Now to start with the original tar board in the engine bay is a huge help in absorbing and keeping much of the engine noise confined to the engine bay. Found this out when I removed mine.

Now you also have 2 type of sound proofing. Deadener and insulation. The deadener is the dynamat and it deadens the vibrations of large panels by turning the vibrations into heat. Now this product NEEDS to be installed as tightly to the panel surface as possible to allow this process to take place. Anything that doesn't stick to the panel isn't a true deadener.

So a cheap option is flashband from Bunnings, the item you already said about. Using a heat gun and roller will get great adhesion to the panels.

Once the deadener is installed then it's time for insulation. This can be high density sound foam from Clarks or some good quality felt from a car trimmers. This stuff absorbs the sound waves so the thicker and denser with more airation per cubic cm will give the best absorbtion.

So get tar board for the engine, coat the parel tray and rear inner wings, floorpan and front inner wings with both deadener and absorber and she'll be pretty quiet :)




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posted on May 30th, 2011 at 12:06 PM



We use and sell Dynamat products and having tried all the competition it's easy to see why it's the market leader worldwide. It's as simple as 'peel and stick' and the job's done and done well.
Dynamat extreme is a .060" layer of butel covered in a .004" layer of aluminium. It won't hold moisture which is real important. Any foam product will absorb and hold moisture which can = rust.
Cost-wise, you get what you pay for and for as little as a $200 investment you'll make a significant impact on the noise levels your car produces and by today's standards, old Volkswagens make a lot of noise.
Weight-wise, a Kombi fully lined with Dynamat adds the weight of a teenager. If that slows your progress you have other issues. ;)
Have a look here to check out the difference Dynamat makes. http://busnbug.com/sb_clients/busnbug/bin/busnbug_gallery.cfm?galleryID=1&...




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posted on May 30th, 2011 at 03:21 PM



Do some online research dude cos seriously Dynamat is WAY overpriced and there are better products out there just that Dynamat is one of the few imported here but possibly with shipping you can get some better stuff.

Also, the flashband works pretty well. Like I say do some online research and save yourself oodles of $$$$$.

I only say this as I have done the research and am only limited now that I live in Oz. I won't use Dynamat on principle. It may be good stuff but it's only from clever marketing that they are so well known and hence can charge what they do. They were one of the first companies to offer this type of product and same as POR15 has used there market presence to push their product. Oz has KBS which is just as good as POR15 and much cheaper so just saying 'don't beleive the hype' :)




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posted on May 30th, 2011 at 04:00 PM



I have just completed my three part sound deadening process.
Its all highlighted in sounddeadenershowdown.com (as described above). You don't need brand label products. Do note that comfort (in regards to sound deadening wise) comes at the compromise of weight. In total the process can add quite a few kgs to the car.

For the ultimate sound deadening I used the following steps:

1) Resonance removal. Cover at least 25% of a panel with Butyl matting, which is the compound used in dynamat. This won't shield sound, but prevent resonance from panels.)

2) Decoupler layer out of closed cell foam. (For number 3)

3) Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV). Heavy stuff. This material is a 'sound barrier'. For results, you must cover the entire panel/doorcard/firewall to shield the sound. The MLV absorbs the sound and deadens it, but must not come in contact with the panel, otherwise it can transmit high speed vibrations from teh panel and resonante them. To achieve the separation from the panel, glue (Contact adhesive) the closed cell foam from (2) between the panel and the MLV, of course over the top of all the butyl matting.

Other pointers:
- Dynamat is a rip off. any butyl matting will do. Ebay has ALOT of cheaper alternatives that are available domestic. Closed cell foam, LV and butyl matting will be costly alltogether even without being dynamat. Bunnings sell butyl matting, its out in the trade section and called roof flashing... its an alternative to lead. it comes in a sheet but the downfall is that its only 300mm wide. (you will have to apply layers. Ebay was still cheaper per sqr meter though.)

Some vids i recorded of before and after generic butyl matting: (resonance removal)

Outside:
BEFORE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWqizONgAjc 

AFTER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zODHpWuXYro 

Inside:
BEFORE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9bs0_5zJ5U 

AFTER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGo8ksojz5I 

Pics of butyl. (yet to get pics of MLV matting)

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/bajachris88/IMG_0062.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/bajachris88/IMG_0061.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/bajachris88/IMG_0065.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/bajachris88/IMG_0063.jpg




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posted on May 30th, 2011 at 04:04 PM



Have done the research. Flashband falls off. As you say, it works pretty well but so does a slab of old carpet stuck to a panel. Saying Flashband works pretty well says it's not 100%. If you want the best there's no argument. Have never heard any negative feedback for Dynamat.
Not using a product on ones own principle is not to say the product is not worthy or the best on the market, nor is it good advice to others who might not share your reasoning and want the best product.
Cheaper is rarely better.

You can go through the process Chris describes but the time taken and the effort involved doesn't compare to the ease of use and the result achieved with Dynamat.




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posted on May 30th, 2011 at 04:34 PM



dynamat has products for all three stages.
except, they have pre-mated MLV and closed cell foam to put on top of the dynamat butyl resonance layer.




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posted on May 30th, 2011 at 05:09 PM



Excuse the mess. dash has been sprayed and final sandings/polishing.

Pics of MLV and CCF (the foam) job. roof yet to be done. They have been roughly cut and put in place. Alot of trimming required, then will use industrial velco to fix all the foam/vinyl mats in place such that they can be removed.


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/bajachris88/IMG_0702.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/bajachris88/IMG_0705.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/bajachris88/IMG_0704.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/bajachris88/IMG_0708.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/bajachris88/IMG_0706.jpg




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posted on May 30th, 2011 at 05:48 PM



She'll be quiet as a mouse Chris. Putting a carpet kit over that lot will be fun.



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posted on May 30th, 2011 at 05:55 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by 65busser
She'll be quiet as a mouse Chris. Putting a carpet kit over that lot will be fun.


thanks mate :), need it with the dual cannons raging.

Yea, i gotta work the whole carpet thing out, and if the 2 inch lift kit wasn't enough of a spanner in the works :crazy:

I'll have to be a little creative with a stock kit and mod to suit, uni student wage won't let me afford a pro upholster at it. I just want it to be tidy and comfortable.




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posted on May 31st, 2011 at 02:17 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by 65busser
Have done the research. Flashband falls off. As you say, it works pretty well but so does a slab of old carpet stuck to a panel. Saying Flashband works pretty well says it's not 100%. If you want the best there's no argument. Have never heard any negative feedback for Dynamat.
Not using a product on ones own principle is not to say the product is not worthy or the best on the market, nor is it good advice to others who might not share your reasoning and want the best product.
Cheaper is rarely better.

You can go through the process Chris describes but the time taken and the effort involved doesn't compare to the ease of use and the result achieved with Dynamat.


and this coming from someone who sells the stuff :lol:

There IS better out there and similar results can be had with flashband, if you use a heat gun to make sure it sticks properly. Tis only cos of the heat in Oz that the adhesive can sometimes not be enough. Dynamat will peel away too if the panel isn't prep'd right and a roller used to apply the mat.

The flashband may not dampen quite as much as the Dynamat but generally you'll only notice in an SPL competition that I used to do in the UK and then I used Brown bread instead of Dynamat cos it had better absorbtion factor and was half the price. SO again, just cos it's good don't mean it's the best and sure don't mean it commands the price it asks.

Heck, even flashband here is more than 4x the price in UK and USA even with the exchange rate.




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posted on May 31st, 2011 at 11:48 AM



Pretty weak argument still. If I was reading this thread and looking for the best product to use and the best way to go about the job of reducing noise I don't think I'd be convinced by your opinion.
If the product you use is driven by your budget that's fine. Everybody has their own budget and has to work within those parameters.
We use the product commercially and for my customers I always endeavor to offer the best products available. If we were to go down the path Chris has taken for example, the saving in product cost would be well and truly absorbed by the time taken to do the job. Then we'd have to modify other parts of the job to compensate for the so called 'saving'. e.g. we'd need to make modifications to a carpet kit, or probably make up a custom carpet kit to fit over the sound deadening. Then that carpet is not going to look right when fitted because of the bulk of material underneath it. Fitting a headlining over that lot would be a nightmare.
I'm not saying Chris's job won't work, I'm sure it will, but the actual saving is lost later in the restoration.
The danger here is 'mis-information'.
If you think Dynamat is expensive that's absolutely fine but your budget doesn't determine the value of the product nor should you use it as a basis to evaluate the product.
Sure we sell it. It's a great product that does the job quickly and efficiently and has a great reputation.
Don't think it would be right to recommend a roofing product to our customers.
If you think we don't have a choice of competitive products available to us in this country, that's the way it is and we can't do anything about it. Doesn't mean the product is not worthy.
HARDWORK has asked a question and deserves an informed response not an opinion.
Cheers
Brad




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posted on May 31st, 2011 at 05:53 PM



It's not the budget. I dislike being ripped off and in my opinion Dynamat is just that.

I have used Dynamat, bituman pads, brown bread, flashing and a few other products when I was in the UK and the Dynamat doesn't do that much better a job than some of the far cheaper options and so hence where my opinion comes from.

Oz is in a hard position as we have far fewer selections to choose from and pricing is higher here. Dynamat is more freely available and has a reputation so for a company to use that is fine but for the individual doing his own work I beleive he will better rewarded elsewhere product wise.

Don't just jump on a bandwagon like most others do but check things out for themselves and make an informed discision.




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posted on May 31st, 2011 at 08:27 PM



"make an informed discision". Apart from the spelling, that bit makes sense.;)



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posted on June 1st, 2011 at 05:59 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by 65busser
"make an informed discision". Apart from the spelling, that bit makes sense.;)


Yea, I'm an engineer so I don't care for my spelling at times. BTW what else didn't make sense?




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posted on June 10th, 2011 at 09:58 PM



been the dynamat route, it seems to be good at stopping reverb (that 'tang!' noise you get when you hit a sheet of steel), but doesn't do a hell of a lot when it comes to blocking noise transmission. two more things you need to stop the noise are decoupling (an air gap of some description like closed cell foam) and something hard to move, like lead. Depending on how far you want to go with noise reduction really it boils down to how serious you are; as with most things there will be compromises.

I'm starting with a layer of gen-you-ine Dynamat (from an existing attempt) and using flashtac (similar to dynamat in function) on the roof, followed by a CCF layer (like Chris), and finishing up with a layer of Mass Loaded Vinyl (a lot lighter than lead, but helps to absorb lower frequencies and road noise). This is not just my weekend warrior, when the rebuild is finished it's back as my daily driver and everything car. Much as I love riding the bike, the cold and rain and lack of tunes and ability to cart stuff around is annoying sometimes.

Chris is actually on the right track.




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posted on June 10th, 2011 at 10:39 PM



Dynamat etc are Constrained Layer Dampers (CLD) . What we have traditionally called "Sound Deadener" it controls panel resonance. They are not designed as sound proofing.
They are designed to stop "drumming " or panel resonance, to achieve this it needs to cover 25 % of a panel.
For sound proofing the entire panels/ interior need to be covered as Peter stated to achieve decoupling. Preferably with a product designed for the purpose such as Vinyl/Nitrile Closed Cell Foam.

People with deep pockets are attempting to achieve both in one fell sweep by covering the entire shell in Dynamat and the results while expensive are good . Very good dampening and improved decoupling.
However as Dynamat etc are designed as CLDs and not as a decoupling barrier much better soundproofing can be achieved by using much less Dynamat and following up with a decoupling.
Also as Peter stated bajachris is on the right track here.

As Brad points out the downside can be the additional bulk added to the panel interfering with door cards or carpet fit. And the labor cost involved may out weigh the cost benefit of using 75% less Dynamat?
However if that can be avoided this approach will give the best result.

Thing is with the dynamat products you get ease of install and the labor saving and in the end a much much much quieter VW and neither approach will make it as quietas a Prius (or a crumpledoor).

Worth a read below follow the link for CLD tiles from Rammat much cheaper than Dynamat same product. Mitchell

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi 




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posted on June 11th, 2011 at 02:15 AM



Mitchell, your post is the most enlightening I've read about how to go about making your bug quieter. Even though Dynamat is expensive, by using only the smaller size needed then using closed cell foam over would be a saving and also give good results!
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posted on June 11th, 2011 at 03:40 PM



there is another product called resomat which is similar to dynomat . From what i hear its cheaper and dose a better job. I can not say From experience but Known of a few people to use it and they where happy with the resomat
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posted on July 12th, 2011 at 08:33 PM



Stop it children...
Just get some ear plugs,they are the cheapest and the best..
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posted on December 15th, 2011 at 01:57 PM
Dynamat


I work for the distributor of Dynamat in Australia. I wont say who as I'll get in trouble, but we had a rep from another car audio company come in the other day. They too make a product "like" Dynamat Extreme.
Guess what he bought a box of for his own car?
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posted on December 17th, 2011 at 12:40 AM



Dynamat is still WAY overpriced compared to other similar products. Tempted to ship some brown bread from Canada.



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posted on November 25th, 2012 at 10:33 PM



I have read a couple of forums about dynomat... I agree it is expensive... I havent seen any mention of Fatmat, is this a new brand? It seems to be the same as dynamat but a bit cheaper (on ebay anyway)?
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posted on November 27th, 2012 at 11:08 PM



FatMat is yet another contender in the USA market. Unsure if available direct in Oz or needs international shipping.

Check out RAAMmaat. USA company but they can ship direct from Singapore so has same dampening factor as Dynamat and better at higher temps but even with shipping it was about $40/sq metre cheaper than Dynamat.

Resomat, Car Builders, Solavis and dBKill are also all Oz companies with there own products. Not necessarliy made in Oz but the campanies are at least Australian.




madness is in the eye of the beholder :yes:
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[ Queries: 40 ] [ PHP: 52.1% - SQL: 47.9% ]
#Duration:Query:
1.0.00024700SELECT * FROM ubb_settings
2.0.00018096SELECT moderator FROM ubb_forums WHERE moderator != ''
3.0.00016284SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'BUGBOY'
4.0.00014305SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'MickH'
5.0.00013399SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'barls'
6.0.00011992SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'vanderaj'
7.0.00013089SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'Cam'
8.0.00012684SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'vw54'
9.0.00013089SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'SuperOwen'
10.0.00011921SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'helbus'
11.0.00011587SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = '65busser'
12.0.00012589SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'Baja Wes'
13.0.00010800SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'Dasdubber'
14.0.00013685SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'MISS VDUB'
15.0.00056815SELECT LENGTH(robot_string) AS strlen, robot_string, robot_fullname FROM ubb_robots ORDER BY strlen DESC
16.0.00017810SELECT f.fid, f.theme FROM ubb_forums f, ubb_threads t WHERE f.fid = t.fid AND t.tid = '89800'
17.0.00028300DELETE FROM ubb_whosonline WHERE ip = '3.231.230.177' && (username = 'xguest123' OR username = 'xrobot123' OR username = 'Anonymous') OR time < '1627978844'
18.0.00016117INSERT INTO ubb_whosonline (username, ip, time, location, invisible, robotname) VALUES ('xguest123', '3.231.230.177', LPAD('1627979444', '15', '0'), '/viewtopic.php?tid=89800', '0', '')
19.0.00014305DELETE FROM ubb_guestcount WHERE ((ipaddress = '3.231.230.177') OR (onlinetime < '1627893044'))
20.0.00009394DELETE FROM ubb_robotcount WHERE ((ipaddress = '3.231.230.177') OR (onlinetime < '1627893044'))
21.0.00010490INSERT INTO ubb_guestcount (ipaddress, onlinetime) VALUES ('3.231.230.177', '1627979444')
22.0.00015497SELECT * FROM ubb_themes WHERE themeid = '1'
23.0.00009799SELECT * FROM ubb_pluglinks ORDER BY displayorder ASC
24.0.00011396SELECT id FROM ubb_banned WHERE ((ip1 = '3' OR ip1 = '-1') AND (ip2 = '231' OR ip2 = '-1') AND (ip3 = '230' OR ip3 = '-1') AND (ip4 = '177' OR ip4 = '-1')) AND NOT (ip1 = '-1' AND ip2 = '-1' AND ip3 = '-1' AND ip4 = '-1')
25.0.00042319SELECT fid, type, name, fup, status, private, userlist, password FROM ubb_forums WHERE private != '5' AND private != '3' AND private != '2' AND userlist = '' AND password = '' AND status = 'on' ORDER BY displayorder
26.0.00013280SELECT themeid, name FROM ubb_themes
27.0.00092483SELECT name, template FROM ubb_templates WHERE name IN ('functions_bbcode', 'functions_bbcodeinsert', 'functions_smilieinsert_smilie', 'functions_smilieinsert', 'viewtopic_reply', 'viewtopic_quickreply', 'viewtopic', 'viewtopic_invalid', 'viewtopic_modoptions', 'viewtopic_newpoll', 'viewtopic_newtopic', 'viewtopic_poll_options_view', 'viewtopic_poll_options', 'viewtopic_poll_submitbutton', 'viewtopic_poll', 'viewtopic_post', 'viewtopic_post_email', 'viewtopic_post_site', 'viewtopic_post_icq', 'viewtopic_post_aim', 'viewtopic_post_msn', 'viewtopic_post_yahoo', 'viewtopic_post_search', 'viewtopic_post_profile', 'viewtopic_post_pm', 'viewtopic_post_ip', 'viewtopic_post_repquote', 'viewtopic_post_report', 'viewtopic_post_edit', 'viewtopic_post_delete', 'viewtopic_post_attachmentimage', 'viewtopic_post_attachment', 'viewtopic_post_attach_noborder', 'viewtopic_post_attimg_noborder', 'viewtopic_post_sig', 'viewtopic_post_nosig', 'viewtopic_printable', 'viewtopic_printable_row', 'viewtopic_multipage', 'viewtopic_post_attachment_none', 'viewforum_rules', 'viewtopic_post_blog', 'viewtopic_post_rpg', 'viewforum_mpn_info', 'viewtopic_next_prev_links', 'viewtopic_captcha', 'css', 'error', 'footer', 'footer_querynum', 'footer_load', 'footer_phpsql', 'footer_totaltime', 'header', 'message', 'meta_tags', 'shadow', 'shadow2')
28.0.00021887SELECT t.tid, t.fid, t.subject, t.views, t.replies, t.closed, t.topped, l.uid as lp_uid, l.username as lp_user, l.dateline as lp_dateline, l.pid as lp_pid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid WHERE t.tid = '89800'
29.0.00016904SELECT * FROM ubb_forums WHERE fid='76' AND status='on'
30.0.00016713SELECT code, url FROM ubb_smilies WHERE type = 'smiley'
31.0.00008202SELECT find, replace1 FROM ubb_words
32.0.00012207SELECT id, title, posts, stars, allowavatars, avatarrank FROM ubb_ranks
33.0.00014687UPDATE ubb_threads SET views = views+1 WHERE tid = '89800' LIMIT 1
34.0.00032401SELECT COUNT(pid) FROM ubb_posts WHERE tid = '89800'
35.0.00270009SELECT t.tid as t_tid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_threads o ON o.tid = 89800 LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts x ON x.tid = o.tid WHERE l.dateline < x.dateline AND t.fid = '76' ORDER BY l.dateline DESC LIMIT 1
36.0.00229096SELECT t.tid as t_tid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_threads o ON o.tid = 89800 LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts x ON x.tid = o.tid WHERE l.dateline > x.dateline AND t.fid = '76' ORDER BY l.dateline ASC LIMIT 1
37.0.00016809SELECT vote_id FROM ubb_vote_desc WHERE topic_id = '89800'
38.0.00024199SELECT pid FROM ubb_posts WHERE tid = '89800' ORDER BY pid LIMIT 0, 30
39.0.00027299SELECT * FROM ubb_attachments WHERE pid IN('835348', '835350', '835416', '835421', '835488', '835491', '835499', '843389', '843629', '843643', '843653', '843655', '843658', '843664', '843672', '843675', '843781', '843825', '843879', '843906', '844081', '845651', '845660', '845672', '845728', '851451', '877144', '877370', '932928', '933267')
40.0.00091004SELECT p.*, m.*,w.time FROM ubb_posts p LEFT JOIN ubb_members m ON m.username = p.author LEFT JOIN ubb_whosonline w ON p.author = w.username WHERE p.fid = '76' AND p.tid = '89800' ORDER BY p.pid ASC LIMIT 0, 30