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 Fueldup
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| posted on April 16th, 2011 at 09:25 PM |
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Baja on road performance.
G'day everyone, I am new to this site I recently joined after getting a renewed interest in vw's mainly Bajas. I have been looking to by one but I
have a few questions before I do.
I am curious as to what a Baja is like to drive at highway speed with say 31" tyres and a 1600 twin port engine is there enough power to maintain
100 kph on most hills or is it advisable to look for a car with a larger engine ? Sorry if this sounds like a rediculous question but I have had very
little to do with these cars.
I have seen some cars advertised with 1770 cc engines which I assume is a 1600 with a big bore kit fitted ,is the difference between the 1600 and the
1770 engine dramatic, do they have different charastics to drive or does the 1770 simply have more power ? Are they reliable , I'm not looking for a
rocket just something with strong power and reliable if thats possible.
I'd appreciate any advice, thanks.
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baghall
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| posted on April 16th, 2011 at 10:55 PM |
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Gidday and welcome.
My baja currently has a 1600tp and 31" rear. Really doesn't like hills, but when I had the 1776 in it performed much better. However, I have lost
4th gear due I think, to the forces involved in driving the 31s. Currently looking for a kombi box to fix this problem, lower ratios and stronger
box.
As far as I know big bore kits won't affect reliability too much but strocking can.
68 Baja - It's a growing pain!
58 Baja ute - and the pain spreads!
85 T3 Kombi - still growing
89 T3 Kombi - parts car
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Smiley
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 12:10 AM |
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I also have a Baja with 31's and currently a 1600tp.
I drive it every single day, it does slow down a bit on hills but isn't too bad.
There are three things you can do to remedy this. More power, different gearbox, or smaller tyres.
I used to have 30"s on it and I noticed the small drop in performance when I went to the 31's.
Smiley 
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bajachris88
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 12:18 AM |
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will the kombi 3 rib shudder at the sight of hills still?
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Smiley
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 12:47 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
will the kombi 3 rib shudder at the sight of hills still?
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I doubt that.
Because the 3-rib is the lowest ratio gearbox when you're doing 100km/h it'll be reving quite a bit more. So it's more likely to want to pull
itself up at speed. When an engine is labouring hard to push a car through the air at 100 plus then you throw gravity on top of that when you hit a
hill. When your revs are lower you lug more and slow down.
Plus the blower you are putting on will help anyway with bulk torque 
Smiley
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Fueldup
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 06:46 AM |
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Thanks for the welcome and the replies, Baghall is there any reason you have gone back to the 1600 ?
So all I need now is a Baja with a 1770cc plus engine with a combie gearbox and 30' tyres and that should make for a decent highway runner ?
I have seen a Baja advertised in SA with a 2 ltr combie motor fitted is there any problems with such a setup ?
I have seen some crazy setups on here with Subaru power amongst other things but I can imagine that sort of thing would present a whole heap of
problems especially with so much hp on tap, I kind of like the simplicity of the old air cooled vw so if I can find something clean and straight with
a slightly larger engine I think I would be happy.
Thanks again guys.
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DubCrazy
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 09:02 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
will the kombi 3 rib shudder at the sight of hills still?
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NO!! i had the 3 rib kombi in mine and its low ratios mean its fine on road and awesome offroad
steff.........
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Smiley
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 09:43 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Fueldup
Thanks for the welcome and the replies, Baghall is there any reason you have gone back to the 1600 ?
So all I need now is a Baja with a 1770cc plus engine with a combie gearbox and 30' tyres and that should make for a decent highway runner ?
I have seen a Baja advertised in SA with a 2 ltr combie motor fitted is there any problems with such a setup ?
I have seen some crazy setups on here with Subaru power amongst other things but I can imagine that sort of thing would present a whole heap of
problems especially with so much hp on tap, I kind of like the simplicity of the old air cooled vw so if I can find something clean and straight with
a slightly larger engine I think I would be happy.
Thanks again guys.
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You're starting to get the idea of it now.
You won't have to go as big as that. a 1600 will suit your purpose for a daily driver. I did 80000km in mine in two years with a 1300 in it. Have
only just put the 1600TP in.
There are 3 different Kombi boxes that are usually used.
3-rib - Lowest ratios, great for offroad and low down crawling.
5-rib - Midrange ratios, best all rounder and good for a daily that does a fair bit of driving on the road. But stills sees a lot of offroad
action.
6-rib - Highest ratios, good for a car that does a lot of highway work and rarely goes offroad. That being said the ratios are too high for a stock
1600, but if you have a bit more power to turn big wheels this gearbox will sit your revs a lot lower at highway speeds, quieter and better on fuel if
you're doing bulk highway miles. Also the strongest box and many people put Subarus behind these. But when you have that much power compared to stock
the higher ratios don't bother you as much.
You should ideally be looking for a 3-rib, but if you do a lot of highway driving I'd recommend a 5-rib so it's not screaming it's tits off.
With tyres I would personally go with 31"s.
When my pair of 30"s got wrecked by a tyre shop I was going to get 30 inch ones again. But they were $100 more per tyre than the 31's from the same
manufacturer!! 31"s are just a far more common size and more readily available.
Happy hunting!!!
Smiley
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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Fueldup
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 10:29 AM |
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Thanks Smiley, so 3-rib will be good offroad and still allow you to maintain highway speeds or will it be really screaming at 100 where as a 5-rib may
be a good comprimise. Where does a standard beetle box fit in with it's gearing I imagine they are geared pretty tall. Anyway what does the rib
stand for on the end of these gearbox models.... it's not half obvious that I know very little, so thanks for the helping hand.
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Smiley
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 11:38 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Fueldup
Thanks Smiley, so 3-rib will be good offroad and still allow you to maintain highway speeds or will it be really screaming at 100 where as a 5-rib may
be a good comprimise. Where does a standard beetle box fit in with it's gearing I imagine they are geared pretty tall. Anyway what does the rib
stand for on the end of these gearbox models.... it's not half obvious that I know very little, so thanks for the helping hand.
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With regards to the Beetle box that depends on what year model you have and whether it's swing axle or CV rear end.
Here's a rough breakdown from the information I have.
The rib number is the ribs across the top of the Kombi transaxle.
3-Rib Kombi
1st - 3.88
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.26
4th - 0.82
R&P - 5.375
Final - 4.4075
Revs at 100km/h with 31"s - 2970
5-Rib Kombi
1st - 3.8
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.26
4th - 0.88
R&P - 4.857
Final - 4.27
Revs at 100km/h with 31"s - 2880
6-Rib Kombi
1st - 3.8
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.26
4th - 0.88
R&P - 4.57
Final - 4.02
Revs at 100km/h with 31"s - 2710
Late Beetle IRS - The ratios on these are really way too high to use them with any larger tyre. I personally would never consider this box as an
option if you plan to go offroad at all.
1st - 3.78
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.26
4th - 0.93
R&P - 3.875
Final - 3.6
Revs at 100km/h with 31"s - 2428
Beetle Swingaxle 1965
This is what I have in my Baja at the moment, scoots along quite well, could be lower ratio for the offroad work and holding speed on the highway.
There are other ratios from different year swingaxle boxes too. I'm looking to convert mine to IRS and do a gearbox swap. But I'll be using
something else that I haven't mentioned here.
1st - 3.8
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.32
4th - 0.89
R&P - 4.375
Final - 3.89
Revs at 100km/h with 31"s - 2623
If you need anything else let me know.
Smiley
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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Fueldup
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 01:13 PM |
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Geez Smiley your a wealth of imformation, I never expected quite so much detail but it is a big help. I am starting to think that getting a baja with
all I am looking for may be near impossible so a gearbox change may be in order after I find something but there is no great rush. I am making out a
list of all the important things to make a baja that I think I will be happy with, I had'nt really considered the gearbox to be quite as important as
some other things but it seems more critical than engine size.
What about brakes do you find the standard drums up to the job or are discs something I should put on the list ?
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 matberry
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 01:44 PM |
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Smiley and others have got you definately on the right track, All good advice above.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Fueldup
I had'nt really considered the gearbox to be quite as important as some other things but it seems more critical than engine size.
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This is sooo true, most people don't get it until thier car is on the road and they wonder why it's overheating and doesn't go up hills !!!
That's the other part to the equation, fan speed is directly related to engine rpm, so as the gearing is changed with the big dia. rubber, the engine
generates more heat by getting out or it's rpm band where it's making good power and torque, but the fan speed is reduced too so the cooling air is
also reduced. A bad combination as you could imagine.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Fueldup
What about brakes do you find the standard drums up to the job or are discs something I should put on the list ?
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Factroy brakes are ok for a stock or near stock powerplant. The first upgrade that really goes hand in hand with the big tyres is to step up to type 3
rear brakes. They have a wider lining and larger diameter wheel cylinder for more braking force which offsets the extra leverage the big tyres get
over the brakes.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Fueldup
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 06:43 PM |
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Thanks matberry, so type 3 brakes on the rear and disc on the front ,or are drums ok up front ? So with a 1600 engine and a rib-3 gearbox with type 3
rear brakes this should make for a fun reliable baja that stops and goes and does everything right ? It's sounding good and now I have a bit of
direction to follow, I had never really considered the fan speed to be so critical but I guess it's not unlike a water coolled engine with the water
pump running to slow. Does the combie gearbox suffer from camber problems like the Beetles ?
What exactly are type 3 brakes anyway ?
Good stuff guys thanks heaps.
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Fueldup
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 06:51 PM |
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I think I got that last bit wrong about combie gearbox , it would be the suspension that causes the issues with the camber so a comie box will fit
with beetle suspension I guess.
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matberry
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| posted on April 17th, 2011 at 08:06 PM |
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The kombi gearbox is assuming the rear suspension is IRS or CV 'double joint'. The earlier type of rear suspension, swing axle has the radical
camber change and limited travel available.
The front end types have pro's and con's depending on what year car you get.
And yes to the disc brakes being a good start, type 3's are the beetle big brother in a wagon, fastback and nothback form, bigger, heavier, roomier
VW.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Fueldup
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| posted on April 18th, 2011 at 12:27 PM |
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OK thanks everyone for your input, is there anything else that you would consider to be vital information for someone just getting started ? How
bigger budget does someone need to get into a Baja with a few mods..... and where are the best places to pick up parts to do some of the mentioned
modifications ?
Just one other thing, what is the reliability of these 1600 engines like ?
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matberry
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| posted on April 18th, 2011 at 02:29 PM |
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One important thing for off road for me, is I prefer later bodies (68 and on) for the far safer burst proof door catch. If you prefer an early car,
modify the doors and pillars to the later catch.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 20th, 2011 at 07:56 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Fueldup
I have seen some crazy setups on here with Subaru power amongst other things but I can imagine that sort of thing would present a whole heap of
problems especially with so much hp on tap, I kind of like the simplicity of the old air cooled vw so if I can find something clean and straight with
a slightly larger engine I think I would be happy.
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My V6 Baja has been running fine for the last 8 years, no issues with the gearbox other than a bit of gear whine at highway speeds (you probably
wouldn't hear it if you had a noisy VW motor)
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Fueldup
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| posted on April 20th, 2011 at 06:38 PM |
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Baja Wes , I really like the look of your Baja and I can only imagine how well it goes you must have put a hell of alot of hours into it to get it to
that standard. Great to hear all that power hasn't caused any dramas I had no idea they could handle that much horsepower.
I think i will be starting out with something pretty mild, but I guess there is no reason I couldn't have a crack at something a little different
further down the track.
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baghall
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| posted on April 21st, 2011 at 07:49 PM |
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As far as budget is concernd. I spent $2500 on purchasing my baja, and am still spending money repairing and setting it up the way I want. It's one
of those things where you keep "making improvements" so the budget you had planned on keeps changing. Though I should have been as smart as you in
getting the advice first. It might have made it easier in the long run.
68 Baja - It's a growing pain!
58 Baja ute - and the pain spreads!
85 T3 Kombi - still growing
89 T3 Kombi - parts car
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Fueldup
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| posted on April 21st, 2011 at 10:44 PM |
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I know where you are coming from, I have been looking at VWs from $1500-7500 and trying to work out wether to buy something completely done and
registered or to start of cheap and build it up, I know paying for a car already done will work out cheaper in the long run and easier too. I have
been here before with other vehicles, problem is after reading all of the great advice from you guys I sorta want to build my own, which leads me to
my next question.
What is the difference between a 61 model beetle and a 69, 1500 ? Does the later model have a better setup for a Baja eg suspension and brakes ? The
61 has a 1600 engine which I assume they didn't come out with.
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Smiley
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| posted on April 21st, 2011 at 10:58 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
modify the doors and pillars to the later catch.
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I must do this 
I spent $300 purchasing my Baja, but then did a full rebuild. And I did nothing that I have suggested above  She's pretty well stock standard still. Lots of mods, not enough time or money. The other problem I
have is the car is my daily so it can't be off the road for more than a weekend.
If you have some free time my build is here
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=1
Smiley
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Fueldup
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| posted on April 22nd, 2011 at 07:56 PM |
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Smiley that is one hell of a build you sure did start from scratch and it looks like you had some challenging moments, great end result, you must love
driving it knowing that all of your hard work has given the old girl a second wind.
Can you tell me if the 69 model will make a good Baja, good points and bad. ? How does it differ from the 61 model ? These are just a couple of models
I have been eyeing off.
I have been looking through the forums but I still have not found much that answers that question but I will keep looking. I have worked out that the
69 has disc brakes on the front but I am unsure about the suspension front and rear.
Thanks.
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Smiley
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| posted on April 22nd, 2011 at 10:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Fueldup
Smiley that is one hell of a build you sure did start from scratch and it looks like you had some challenging moments, great end result, you must love
driving it knowing that all of your hard work has given the old girl a second wind.
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Aww shucks man  It really is along way from being anywhere near
what I want it to be. Still very standard. Lots of work to be done.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Fueldup
Can you tell me if the 69 model will make a good Baja, good points and bad. ? How does it differ from the 61 model ? These are just a couple of models
I have been eyeing off.
I have been looking through the forums but I still have not found much that answers that question but I will keep looking. I have worked out that the
69 has disc brakes on the front but I am unsure about the suspension front and rear.
Thanks.
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'61 Beetle, standard will have a 1200 single port engine, king and link pin front and swing axle rear suspension.
6V electrics. Single speed wipers. Drum brakes all round. Wide five stud pattern.
Whereas the '69 will have a 1500 or 1600 engine by now. Ball joint front end and swingaxle rear.
12V electrics. Disc brakes front, drums on rear. 4 stud pattern. The windows on the '69 are all larger, external fuel filler door. It also has
additional safety features like the door latches and disc brakes mentioned above. As well as a collapsible steering column.
Ball joints will handle better on road, require less adjustment and less maintenance.
The "69 is essentially going to be a better car. It'll have 8 years of improvements and development up on the '61.
The only real difference from an offroaders standpoint is that the engine will be bigger, which is always better
And the front suspension is a different type. Other than that they are the same type.
Now, as for front suspension from an offroaders view.
King and Link Point is a little bit stronger and more rugged. They were around for a lot more years than balljoint so they are more available. You can
get more travel out of K+L than a balljoint, because the balljoints bind up and stop the arms moving.
Aftermarkets parts are far more available out of the likes of America for the King and Link pin, that's what most of the offroad race cars use and
most sandrails.
BUT, Thing Spindles are available for balljoint front ends, they give you around 3" of lift with a bolt on mod. Things are a Balljoint based offroad
car that was made for the American market, we didn't get them over here. Best to PM Mattberry for more info, he has a set on his beast.
You can also get a 3" lift spindle for the K+L, off a car called the Country Buggy. Was Australian designed and built in the 60s. But they are an
incredibly rare car and the spindles are like chook's teeth.
It really depends what you're planning on using the car for. But I would probably recommend the later car as your better bet. You just have so much
less work to do from your start point (converting to 12V disc brake conversions etc)
It'll be better to drive on the road and go just as far as 99% of Link Pin Baja's offroad, until one like this comes along and ruins your picnic http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=126314
Whoops, just gave you a thread you have to read
Any more questions just throw them up, that's why the forum's here.
Smiley
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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matberry
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| posted on April 22nd, 2011 at 10:26 PM |
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The other negative for ball joint is the lack of positive stops, stock this is built into the shock (well meant to, but not all shocks are created
equal) but for off road it's best to build in better stops.
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Fueldup
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| posted on April 23rd, 2011 at 08:02 AM |
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Thanks Smiley, that is exactly the info I was looking for now I am sorta starting to get a handle on things. Thanks for the other thread there is alot
of reading in there I have only just scratched the surface I must go back later and go through the whole story.
I am really enjoying learning all of the ins and outs of the VWs and everyones help on here is making it a whole lot easier.
Mattberry, are the stops in the picture something that you have added ? Does this then protect the shocks from damage ?
When looking at beetles where is the most important place to check for rust and I suspect most of them will have some ? Is there a point when you
should walk away if a vehicle is rusted in a particular area. Smiley that probably doesn't apply to you after seeing what you had to repair !
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matberry
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Go hard or go home
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Mood: enjoying waving at all my Kombi buddies from my T3
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| posted on April 23rd, 2011 at 10:16 AM |
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Yeap, those stops are added. Pic is from the net, not mine.
Rust....yep, walk away if there's any in the roof gutters, sills and heater channels is where you start looking. Any thing can be repaired...but it
all takes time, so the cleaner car closest to what you want is by far the best/cheapest/easiest choice. Get a good body to work with and mod the
mechanicals to what you want is often the best....for me anyway, as there aren't many cars set up the way I want ......
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Fueldup
Casual Dubber
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| posted on April 23rd, 2011 at 09:03 PM |
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Yes matt it makes alot of sense to find a good straight relatively rust free car, most of the beetles I have been looking at have had 1500 engines, I
was hoping for a 1600 but really upgrading this at a later date is far easier than having to do heaps of body work.
What can you tell me about the 1500 engine, how does it compare to the 1600 ?
Some beetles have been advertised as having lowered suspension, now obviously this is heading in the wrong direction for what I want so does it make
it difficult to raise it up for offroad work and will it be exspensive to raise it again or is it no big deal ?
Thanks.
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matberry
Super Moderator
Go hard or go home
Posts: 8114
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Registered: March 7th, 2006
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Mood: enjoying waving at all my Kombi buddies from my T3
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| posted on April 23rd, 2011 at 09:15 PM |
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My car went from this
to this
Just swapped the front end from a narrowed lowered beam to a stock beam with 181 (Thing) fron stubs, cranked up the rear and away you go. I actually
swapped pans to one I was preparing for the offroader as the car was swing axle and I wanted IRS, for me a must for any serious offroader, and so the
pan swap was the easiest route. The basic swap was on the road again in one week (admitedly a big week).
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Fueldup
Casual Dubber
Posts: 23
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Registered: April 7th, 2011
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| posted on April 24th, 2011 at 07:15 AM |
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Hey Matt, you know everytime you guys tell me something new about your cars I suddenly get a whole heap of new questions pop into my head, for you its
common knowledge but for me I end up with the ''What The'' feeling and then I want to know.
This time its the IRS suspension which I thought would stand for independent rear suspension but I am probably wrong, is this the system that
eliminates wheel camber ?
IRS comes from which VW ?
So you are saying that buying a car with lowered suspension isn't a problem judging by what you did to yours in one week and yer that must of been a
hell of a week.
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