| [ Total Views: 1894 | Total Replies: 43 | Thread Id: 9399 ] |
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 jakriz
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 07:43 AM |
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Fan Speed & engine RPM
I've been thinking about the pro's & cons regarding using a full size pulley on a high revving engine. If a stock motor & fan is
designed not to be really revved over say 4500rpm, then once u start revving the engine to 6000rpm up to 7500rpm, does the stock fan become useless,
like it is spinning so fast that it creates some type of void of air that doesn't actually get pushed over the heads & cooler?
So if I was to use a power pulley on the track it would actually cool better since the revolutions of the fan would be a little closer to what the
stock fan does at 4500rpm , to the power pulley spinning at 6000rpm & higher?
Am I just thinking too hard?
regards
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 08:37 AM |
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That's the theory. Evidently when the revs get too high (don't ask me how high), it causes cavitation and the fan doesn't blow very
effectively. This could be detrimental to the point where it is actually cooling less than it would at stock revs, even though your motor is making
much more heat.
Power pulleys are designed for exactly that purpose. 
That said, I've never used one, because I've never built a motor designed to rev to those speeds.
Kruizin Kol
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 08:48 AM |
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Man whoever starts these rumours is on drugs.
The fan WILL NOT reach a maximum flow.
Air does not cavitate. Cavitation is when a liquid is suddenly accelerated, the change in energy from pressure to velocity causes a reduction in
pressure and localised boiling. Air doesn't boil, it's already a gas.
The fan will keep pumping out more and more air the faster you spin it. Eventually it will explode.
The problem is the power used by the fan increases as a cubic power of the fan RPM. So at higher RPM the fan will be sucking so much power the fan
belt will simply slip. This will give the apparent effect that the fan has reached it's maximum flow, but it hasn't, it just isn't
getting spun any faster cos the belt can't transmit the power required.
Jak, you really should use a power pulley. It will have very little effect on your cooling. The heat transfer to the air is related by the 0.73 power
of the engine speed, so the loss of cooling is not as much as the loss of fan speed. If that makes sense.
What fan RPM do people think the fan stalls/cavitates anyway?
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 vw54
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 09:03 AM |
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good theroy
Jak you would be better of concentrating on getting a good condition welded fan.
The swaging on the blades and such will proberly be getting stretched to there limit, and by welding and stress relieveing a fan, perhaps there will
be less chance of it flying apart.
Are you having over heating problems now ??? oil temp obiviously goes up when you push it but to what temp on yr gauge ???
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 09:52 AM |
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I used to run a power pulley on my 1915 in winter, and a normal pulley in summer because I used to offroad at very low RPM alot.
If I were you I would try the power pulley. You won't notice much difference in temp, but you should notice a bigger difference in top end HP. It
should rev out a little further a little and a little more freely.
Read this if your bored
http://offroadvw.net/tech/wes/fan.html
I got heaps more info than that.
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Brad
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 12:21 PM |
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mmmm
The age old argument. 
I am not going to repeat all that tech stuff Wes has said, although I could copy and paste it from his theasus thingy. He is actually the only guy I
know who bothered to work out the theory behind what went on in those fan housing things with fans.
I did have few thoughts myself a few years back and attempted to "blow" a vw fan up to see what happened. I made up a test rig with an
electric motor, and some push bike bits. Anyway I got it up to just under 12000 RPM and the bitch didn't seem to care. I tried to measure air
flow from it and although I am positive it was pushing much more at 11000 than 6000 I have no proof as I couldn't get an accurate measure. I was
quite suprissed it kept pumping I thought it would do some weird stuff before that.
Anyway then I read Wes's pages and pages of tech dribble and didn't bother trying to calculate the difference cause his was heaps cooler.
I reckon if you are gunna run the engine over 3000 rpm, wack on a power pulley and cut sick. Run a temp guage and you can't go wrong.
If you want more specific advise and reasons just ask Wes, I am sure he will be more than happy to pull out that documnet he put 12mths of his life
into...
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jakriz
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 04:17 PM |
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The oil temp on the street is amazing low, but on the track I would like to be able to do more than 3-4 laps without having to pull in to let it cool
down.
For example, driving to work today for 20 mimutes the oil wouldn't go over 50d, thats without turning the fan on the RX7 cooler on. On the F3 to
get to the track it's lucky to get to 80-90d, but after a few laps flat out, especially in summer the dial will go off the guage & thats
about 130d. I've just got myself another fan for the cooler today which I will put on for Eastern Creek so that I'll have 2, but I'm
starting to think that there may be more to it than just adding more fans & oil coolers. Thought the fan speed may have more to do with it.
The guys overseas are running around 100d for 30 lap races! but they are using the Porsche fan shroud.
regards
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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 Bizarre
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 05:11 PM |
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Rather than the power pulley - go the other way
I have lost the thread but a while ago on the original SBO site some one posted that a Porsche 356 generator pulley fits a VW generator. These are a
smaller diameter that stock VW.
This will spin faster and push more air
"IF" you are REALLY interested follow ol' Jake on STF
He is doing a series of tests with some radial fan and his massIVeDTM shrould
I think you would get something out of it Jak - have a look
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 05:23 PM |
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Trying to run the fan faster will not to anything but make the fan belt slip earlier.
Jak is running high rpm, where the fan sucks so much HP that the fan belt can't turn it any faster. So trying to changing the pulley ratio's
to turn the faster isn't going to do anything.
The 911 fan pushes a hell of a lot more air than the beetle fan.
If I were you Jak, I would look at your jetting. From what you at describing your carbs are leaning out at higher rpm making it run hotter than
normal. Jet it richer and it will run cooler. Have you had it dyno tuned and had the air/fuel ratio plotted?
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jakriz
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 05:46 PM |
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I have had it dynoed Wes, & u are dead right, it was rich down low & lean up top. Since then I have installed a CB Performance update kit in
my 45mm Dellortoes which gives it a horizonatal dishcharge tubes & different jetting to suit. I have yet to put it back on the dyno though. Maybe
I should purchase an air/fuel ratio guage?
regards
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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Grey 57
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 06:03 PM |
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May sound obvious but are you running deck stand offs Jak. With the higher revs the fans is moving much more cu.ft. of air. Possible that the standard
air slots in the back of a beetle only allow so much air thru before they become restrictive.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 07:27 PM |
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good point grey. Gene Berg actually done a test with a dog house fan fitted to an early bug with no decklid vents, and measured a noticeable pressure
drop in the engine bay. The low pressure vw fan would be quite sensitive to this. Gene recommended using a later vented deck lid with the dog house
shroud.
See if it's still lean up top Jak. It could be doing your engine real damage if it is. Better to be too rich than too lean in racing conditions.
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68AutoBug
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| posted on August 15th, 2003 at 11:03 PM |
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Very good answers to the posts Baja Wes... very interesting topic.... I enjoyed reading them.... and I'm very glad that the Fan on MY
68autobug isn't about to implode or explode etc...
[size=4]Text[/size]
I always liked the idea of a slow revving air cooled , horizontally opposed 4 cylinder engine.... :bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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jakriz
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| posted on August 16th, 2003 at 06:04 AM |
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I don't need decklid standoffs as I run an Aero wing. Besides, I've used the stand offs before & for really high speeds u can't
beat the wing. Despite what people say about the looks.
regards
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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Brad
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| posted on August 16th, 2003 at 06:34 AM |
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Other Ideas
Hey, are you still running a dog house and an oil cooler ? Have you though of using a type 4 cooler in teh T1 shroud. I have found it is good for a
few degrees. Also put on some cool tins or type 3 under cylinder trays. These will help you use the air you are pushing over the cylinder heads
better.
It is one thing to move more air, it is another thing to actually use more. If it doesn't get enough time to take the heat with it.
The guys with the porsche fans are a completly different ball game. That of course would be the next option. Slap and 11 blade on it and have no more
heat problem.
I have managed to keep my Manx at 80 degrees all the time now, even when in soft sand at 4000 rpm and above for long periods. Took some stuffing
around so it didn't run cool on the street as well.
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jakriz
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| posted on August 16th, 2003 at 12:56 PM |
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I did the type 4 cooler in the type 1 shroud years ago & it was a waste of my time, absolutely no difference wether on the street or track.
I am running the type 3 cool tin under the barrels & I've also run without it & it too was no difference, but I'm still using it.
regards
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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Stanley
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| posted on August 16th, 2003 at 01:05 PM |
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My 2c worth. I was in the hydraulic ind. for a few years. Air to oil, oil coolers are one thing standard on all mobile equipment. sizing these is an
art as bigger is not always better. Cavitation can happen with fluids and gases eg jet engines can cavitate. Cavitation is basically a vacuum where
the inlet is restricated ie you get implosion in fluids and a vacuum with gasses
With regards to a vw fan etc you get to the point where the heads and barrels become a restrication and regardless how fast you turn the fan you
can't jam anymore air through the tin ware.
When this happens you get an increase in pressure on the outlet side of the fan which ultimately robs the engine of HP at high RPM this air can quite
often be turbulent and not be efficient.This is why flexible blades were designed on early race cars blades flattened out when the airflow through the
radiator was at its max due to movement of the car. If someone could develop one of these for a vw you could pick up some HP at or near full noise.
So long as you don't get a neg pressure in your engine bay your laughing:bounce
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vw54
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| posted on August 16th, 2003 at 05:04 PM |
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Jak
I would rather be Rick at revs than lean... Its got to be do some harm to your engine... perhaps a bit more fiddling on the dyno with jets.
It will probally be impossible to get it right for both conditions but rich at revs would be better... than blowing and overheating yr engine.
Perhaps a different heat range plug could be the answer for both types of driving ??
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Grey 57
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| posted on August 16th, 2003 at 05:19 PM |
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What about oil flow thu the cooler. If the motor is running at higher RPM on the track then everything is moving thru the engine at twice the speed of
you travelling down the M2. Is it possible that the oil flow thru the cooler is too fast for proper oil cooling to occur on the track. ?
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jakriz
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| posted on August 16th, 2003 at 06:13 PM |
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I agree Dave , I'm sure it's no good for the engine despte the short amount of laps that it's on full song.
I've added another fan on the RX7 cooler today, they are from the front of a Bay window Kombi, they pump out heaps of air. I'm also going to
make a shroud out of some flashing as U can only feel a little air coming through the cooler whereas the rest is just bouncing off in abundance. I
think that it will cool more efficiantly with the air forced through the cooler. I've also wrapped my oil lines with heat wrap since they are so
close to the header which gives off major heat.
I'm going back to the dyno in the next couple of weeks.
regards
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 16th, 2003 at 08:00 PM |
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Hey Jak, have you thought about putting a real thermo fan on the cooler? A proper thermo with proper shrouding will do a lot more than a kombi fan.
Definitely find some bigger jets too.
Kafer, cavitation only occur's in liquids. It is not vacuum bubbles, it is vapour bubbles (ie boiling of the liquid into it's vapour state).
The boiling occurs at ambient temperatures due to a large drop in pressure, such that the pressure goes below the liquids vapour pressure, and it
vapourizes. This damages pump impellers as the bubbles form and collapse rather violently taking some of the impellor with it.
Anyone who uses caviation with a gas is not using the term properly. Jet engines are a different problem. A form of choked flow. It's to do with
a converging-diverging nozzle being required to accelerate a fluid past it's sonic velocity.
If you do the calc's for a VW fan you'll see the velocity required for choked flow is extremely high and the VW fan will never get there.
That is why I said it will explode before it meets a maximum flow. Remember most Jet engines are very strong with titanium blades and the VW fan is a
crap piece of pressed steel.
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1303Steve
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| posted on August 16th, 2003 at 11:57 PM |
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Hi
Ask Keith Hausler about exploding fans, he has minced a few.
Jak I think you need to get the cooler in the airstream, maybe the scoop will work but you may have to cut up the Kamie.
1302Steve
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on August 17th, 2003 at 03:28 PM |
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Hmmm, too high tech for me. :o I'll take Wes's word for it, because I know that he does his homework. :thumb
I reckon the 'proper' thermo-fan is a good idea, and the shroud is a necessity too.
What about a water spray onto the oil cooler, controlled by a thermostat? Or even water injection into the inlet manifold?
Kruizin Kol
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jakriz
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| posted on August 17th, 2003 at 06:50 PM |
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I don't think that the 'Thermo -fan is the answer. CT has one & his oil temp goes off the guage way before mine.
I took it for a drive today & after giving it a blast I finally got the oil temp up to 80d & when I turned both of the fans on, the oil temp
quickly dropped back to 50d & that was cruising at the speed limit. It will be interesting to see what it does on the track, & with the
shrouding.
I've played around with the cooler up fron under the front bumper, but the RX7 cooler stands out like dogs balls, its very visible &
suceptable to damage, at least where it is it's safe.
I've also thought about the water spray as well. I was going to put a electric windscreen washer bottle behind the back seat & just have the
nossle sticking through the parcle tray. MY only concerns are putting water on the track? Would it go everywhere? or would it just dissolve &
would it really cool? Alot of guys use water spray on their intercoolers so there should be no reason it would'nt work on an oil cooler?
Dunno?
regards
Jak
PS thanks to everyone for their input!
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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helbus
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| posted on August 17th, 2003 at 07:09 PM |
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| Quote: |
What about oil flow thu the cooler. If the motor is running at higher RPM on the track then everything is moving thru the engine at twice the speed of
you travelling down the M2. Is it possible that the oil flow thru the cooler is too fast for proper oil cooling to occur on the track.
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But wouldn't that also mean it flows through the motor too quick to get as hot, or that it would go through the cooler twice as often?
[Edited on 17-8-2003 by Helbus]
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Grey 57
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| posted on August 17th, 2003 at 07:48 PM |
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Dunno Pete, I think I'm like Kol and well outta my depth.
Water spray sounds like a good one tho. Engine parts give up heat turning water into steam.
[Edited on 17-8-2003 by Grey 57]
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helbus
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| posted on August 17th, 2003 at 07:53 PM |
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I had some probs with overheating in my EH Holden, and as it runs an electric water pump, some people were quick to say it was because the water was
flowing too fast through the radiator to cool down.
I thought about it and came to the conclusion that it would also mean that the water spent less time in the motor getting hot, but it would do it
about twice as often.
Fixed it anyway. Got an aluminium radiator with huge core made up and a monster 16" thermo fan.
Radiator guy said it is enough gear to keep a 350 Chev cool.
Anyway back to VW's for me.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on August 18th, 2003 at 08:17 AM |
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The oil flowing too fast will not cause a problem. The faster a fluid flows through something the better it transfers heat to the walls of what it is
flowing through. That's the simple version
Sure you will get a smaller temperature drop at higher oil flows, but your right about it also rising a smaller amount through the engine. You have to
look at the total heat transfered though. Because the convective heat transfer coefficient is better at higher oil flows, the total amount of heat
removed will also be higher.
Tell us how your various mods go Jak. I'd be interested to see how the dyno tuning goes.
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fullnoise
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| posted on August 18th, 2003 at 03:34 PM |
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Thermo fan doesn't work????
With regards to Jak's comment about my thermo fan not really working that well it's hard to judge due to difference circumstances.
Jak's engine has the benefit of less compression and a big wing to feed cool air to the engine bay.
My 1916 runs about 10:1 compression with no stock oil cooler. My only oil cooling is a 96 plate messa cooler with a Davis Craig thermo fan mounted
snuggly above the gearbox.
My engine seems to run a lot cooler than other Stan Pobjoy engines that only use the stock oil cooler.
The other pobjoy engines I'm talking about run lid lifters or hoodjaks. Neither of which I will run for aesthic reasons.
I imagine it would be hard to fit a thermo fan to Jaks RX7 oil cooler since they are long and rectangular.
My thermo fan is operated by a toggle switch. I find that temps will keep climbing if I don't turn the switch on. The thermo fan stops the temps
climbing rather than dropping the temperature.
I find that my engine will sit on 80 - 90 degrees around town depending on the weather. It will sit on 90 - 110 on the freeway also depending on the
weather. When pushed at the track I don't let it go above 120. I feel that this is all pretty safe. Once the engine gets to 120 it will cool down
to 100 alot quicker than it will cool down to a lower temperature.
If cruising on the freeway and the engine has been sitting at 95 degrees for a while if I give it a blast and bring the temps up then resume my
original cruising speed the engine temps will not go back to 95 but more likely 100. If I was to rest the engine by coasting down a long hill the
temps would drop to 95 and would stay at that temperature when I resume my cruising speed.
I hope this blurb helps somebody.
CYA, CT
esratrams
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jakriz
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| posted on August 18th, 2003 at 08:53 PM |
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C'mon CT, I didn't say it doesn't work, I said I didn't think it was the answer since yours runs hotter than mine, thats all
dude:thumb
Jak
Congratulations to Ben Durie for breaking the hillclimb record at Ringwood in his stroker beetle!
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