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 Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 26th, 2013 at 05:13 PM |
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Very high Oil Temperatures
Hi Guys
I decided to start a new thread as this issue arose from another thread that I started regarding oil pressures. ( http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=100571&page=1#pid940777 ).
I have done a test drive of the car ('67 beetle with a 1916cc Fuel Injected motor and mild cam and counterweighted cranks in a dual relief case that
has done only about 19k kms) I have just purchased the car and have a list of "issues" that I am slowly working my way through in order to make the
car a great and reliable daily driver. The car was originally built by Stenguns and here is the thread ( http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=64212&page=1 ). The car has an external oil cooler (280mm x 180mm
x 40mm 24 row??? without a fan) connected to the oil pump and is located above the transmission.
I have attached a PDF of the data from the test run.
I have noticed the following:
1. The motor sits a little bit low in the engine bay that may be attriibuted to the engine mounts failing.
2. The tinware does not sit nicely.
3. The engine seal has not been installed correctly and does not seal properly.
4. I think that the fan shroud in not genuine and probably does not have the correct internals.
5. I think the internal cooler is still in place.
6. I am not sure if all of the tinware/direction bits and pieces are installed.
At this stage I have not taken the engine out but see the need for that to happen sooner rather than later.
I would like to confirm the following. Is this a true statement?
If the engine is in good condition and all of the tinware is correct and installed correctly and the engine seal is correct and installed correctly
and I only had the internal oil cooler and no external cooler and had the standard pulleys then the oil temperature would be ok??? If I were to add an
external oil cooler with a thermostatically controller fan that that would be even better?
If the above is true then where is the best place (ideally in Australia) to get a complete set of genuine tinware and any other bits and pices I need?
I understand that CIP1 have a complete genuine set of tinware http://www2.cip1.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=VWC-113-198-100&sort=7&...
Thanks again guys for your help with this...I have a feeling we are going to solve this issue quickly.
Regards
Greg
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Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 26th, 2013 at 05:28 PM |
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Some more photos
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vwo60
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| posted on January 26th, 2013 at 05:46 PM |
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I disagree with the statement that ther oil temp will be ok, with any modified engine if you increase the power output you will increase the heat
generated, you will have to pay attention to all of the above, as i said in my previous post my engine is a 2276 with 10.8 to 1 without the boot
propped open and i have no over heating issues in my ghia or early beetle, as Matt said there are some other issues that you have to look at, seal
around the engine is one of them you will probably need to remove the engine and start again, i have a scat 36 HP shroud with a dog house cooler and
it fits well after making it seal, i have the cooler, fan and thermostat contolled properly and this works very well for me, also my head temps are
not high, i have calibrated the gauge to varify it reads correctly, i firmly believe that your temp gauge sender is not in the block as the heat from
the engine gives you a false reading, I have done a lot of checking temps at different places on the block and they read conciderably higher than the
oil entering the engine after it has been through the cooler, mine is in the return line after the oil thermostat.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 26th, 2013 at 09:37 PM |
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Looks like you may have a power pulley, this will raise your temps by 10 deg.
I disagree with measuring the oil temps after the cooler, as this does not give a good indication as to what is happening with the motor. All you are
measuring is how affective the cooler is, not how hot the motor's oil is getting........but each to the own
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A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 26th, 2013 at 09:52 PM |
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Thanks guys for your input and thoughts.
I know that I need to fix the basic configuration of the tinware and seals to ensure that the basic cooling system is in place. I'll also find out
where the sender for the oil temp gauge is located and let you know.
Craig, what is the diameter of the stock pulley? I measured mine at it is 6.75" diameter.....
Regards
Greg
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 matberry
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| posted on January 26th, 2013 at 10:07 PM |
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Yep, I'd say thats a power pulley. Stock is around 7" in diameter
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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hellbugged
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| posted on January 26th, 2013 at 10:40 PM |
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I just went through the old thread and yes it has a dog house oil cooler and the temp sender is in the type 3 oil fill block plate..........deep sump
(hence the 5 litres of oil) and one of those in/out oil pump covers rather than a drilled and tapped case with closed pump(....hmmmmm  )
.... And from the pics in the thread, I wouldnt lay down too much money on it being a power pulley.... What are the numbers on the fan belt?.... Also
no definiative pics that it has the proper " exhaust" tinwear off the dog house cooler. Shove the camera down between the fan housing and firewall
and post a pic or one from underneath at the clutch lever area to show this
There's not much lower temp to be found reguarding the rubber engine bay seal as pictured above
There is a credit list in the thread that mentions Dave Becker built the engine???
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vwo60
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 07:41 AM |
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In the real world you could have a temp sender before and after the cooler so you can see the delta t across the cooler, having the sender after the
cooler tells you if the cooler is effective other wise you have no idea what is actual oil temp being feed into the engine only what ever readings you
are getting off the block, if you measure ther temp on the engine block it is totally inacurate as you are measuring the temp of the block not the oil
temp, my measurments have shown me this, if you know the delta t across the cooler, you simply add this to the return oil temp and then you know the
engine oil temp in the sump. the other issue that needs adressing is the accuacy of the gauge, this will need to be checked to confirm it's is
acurate.
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Lateral
A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 08:20 AM |
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Hi Guys
Dave Becker (Menangler) built the engine. I have contacted him and being more than 3 years ago his memory was pretty good. He said that it was a
pretty "standard" type of build.
Daimo, I'll get some photos of the tinware today and post them. here is a photo of the fan belt information.
From my googling, I thought the standard pulley was 6 3/4"?
Regards
Greg
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matberry
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 08:35 AM |
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Dave can build a good engine so at least there's some comfort there. He no doubt sedt up C's and componrnt matched well. y the bbelt, seems I
jumped on Craigs powerpulley band wagon a little too early....11x900 is most likely a std pulley.
As for temp gauges, any of them IMO are just indicative of what is normal and what is not. There are many variations for placement and brand of
equipment. One component to the argument of before/after cooler is, the oil itself is what breaks down when subjected to high temps so it is handy to
know the max temp that the oil sees, not just what temp it is as it enters your engine, but really, any reading, once the driver is used to what is
'normal', then they can recognise what is 'abnormal'.....hopefully.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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hellbugged
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 08:40 AM |
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Have you checked the timing ???
As per Mat's post, Dave would build a well sorted motor.
Personally I'm not a fan of those types of pump covers.... Do they proved full flow to the external cooler, or only a "shared" flow?
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 08:49 AM |
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well its a standard pulley with that belt size....so you can tick that off the check list !
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A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 08:59 AM |
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I've got the car booked in for a Dyno check with guys that specialise in the Atom G4 ECU that the car is using. I want them to check all of the
settings and see if there is any diagnostic information as cylinders 1 and 2 seem to be running rich and whilst the car is starting 100% better that
it was since changing the battery and installing new transmission ground straps, I think it can still can do better.
Can you guys recommend/suggest any tuning settings for the car?
Regards
Greg
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A.k.a.: Greg Mackie
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 09:09 AM |
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What grade of oil are you running? After changing to a lighter grade, my oil temp. dropped to a reasonably safe level. Heavy oil tends to by-pass the
cooler, and return to the sump, through the relief valve[s].
The other thing that helped greatly, although it means boring a couple of holes in the body , is cold air intakes.
After making those two changes, oil temp has dropped by 20 deg. C.in my Beetle.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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hellbugged
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 09:37 AM |
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After a good check on the dyno relocating the oil cooler or adding tubes that direct air to it will help lots.
A bootlid prop from Craig Torrens also gets temps down near on 10 degrees.... If you don't want to prop the lid, add vents to the rear engine tin
with fresh air tubes to provide more air into the engine bay.....
Yep keen to see pics if the tinwear is on the doghouse still
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 10:02 AM |
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i changed from a similar fan housing back to a modified sbug one on mine and dropped about 10-15 degrees. i believe al aka das did the same on the
green bug that craig now owns for the same reason when it was running the t4
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 10:03 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hellbugged
Personally I'm not a fan of those types of pump covers.... Do they proved full flow to the external cooler, or only a "shared" flow?
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They are full flow.
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matberry
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 10:06 AM |
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On a doghouse installation, the oil cooler exhaust tinware is very important too, and sealed properly.
As for tuning recommendations, most dyno tuners are used to water-pumpers and tend to aim too lean for what I believe to be correct for our aircooled
cousins. There is the argument that they are all internal combustion piston engines, but a hot running air cooled engine will not produce power once
overall engine temps are beyond normal. I aim for between 11 and 13.5:1 AFR, yes it's richer, but I believe the extra fuel is an important part of
keeping out engines cool.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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matberry
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 10:10 AM |
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As for the in/out pump cover, I am NOT a fan, the internal oil galleriesin the pump are smaller than stock oil passages and therefore offer a
restriction to oil volume. It is oil volume that cools the engine internals, another reason not to put heavy weight oil in your engine. Heavier grade
oil will show better presure on your gauge, but will result in less oil volume to wash the temperature from your pistons, the primary source of
internal temperature.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 11:16 AM |
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I'm using Mobil Super 1000 20/50w.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 12:35 PM |
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should go for a drive today 20deg out side and raining shouldn't run hot.
when its not raining and its a hot day, just take engine lid off go for a run and check temps , them u know if its air flow.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 12:39 PM |
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Mobil Super 1000 20W-50 ???
Mobil Super 1000 20W-50 is a quality premium mineral motor oils designed to provide a high level of performance and protection under most operating
conditions. This product has been engineered for today’s tougher engine specifications. It provides very good engine protection and extends engine
life. Mobil Super 1000 20W-50 is suitable for use in both gasoline and diesel powered vehicles. It is ideally suited for less stressful
driving conditions such as highway driving and lower consistent speed conditions.
I run a castrol oil .
stan pobjoy runs castrol egde 25/50 in his 1916 engines
Penrite have some good oil s.
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A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 01:31 PM |
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Hi Ian,
I was thinking of removing the engine lid off and going for a drive on a hot day to see if there is any difference.
I had an 1835cc engine some years ago and always ran Mobil 20w-50 and changed the oil every 2000kms. Are you saying that Mobil 20W-50 is not a
suitable oil?
Regards
Greg
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A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 01:57 PM |
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Hi guys
Here are some photos of the tinware.
First photo is left hand side. You will see the coil/ignition device...I am assuming that this is not a good location as hot air will be escaping from
the rear and blowing over this device due to the missing tinware? I am also 95% sure that the original cooler is still in place.
Regards
Greg
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A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 02:02 PM |
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Some more
I am assuming that the big sensor is the oil temp sensor for the ECU? and the smaller is for the VDO gauge?
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Sides
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 02:19 PM |
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Ahh, right - having the coil getting hot air dumped on it is one thing, but a BIG part of your problem is it's sitting where the exit duct from the
doghouse goes that Daimo and Matt have both said.
The bit we're talking about is a rectangular duct that runs from the doghouse down and forwards out through the tin to dump near the clutch cable. It
installed through the tin from the engine side, and bolts up to the fan shroud. Without that bit in there the air that's just passed through the oil
cooler (and gotten heated up) is going to get sucked back through the system again, which is bad as obviously hot air doesn't do a great job of
cooling things down.
Basically a complete tin setup you don't have any hot air dumping in the engine bay - it all gets vented below the engine with no way of getting back
up and in, and the only air that can get sucked into the fan has to have come in from the vents below the rear window (or in the engine lid for later
bugs).
So... really ya need to move the coil out of there and get the proper exit duct in there... that'd be good for at least 10 deg C of oil temp in my
experience.
Also how close are those exhaust pipes running to the head... in the pics look almost like might be touching ???
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 02:32 PM |
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Sides has hit it ^. That little duct is a bugger to fit, but MUST be there.
Try to eliminate air-gaps in the tin ware, wherever possible.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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A.k.a.: Greg Hanley
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 02:57 PM |
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Thanks guys
Yeah, I had a bad feeling about the missing tinware...
I have attached a photo of the missing pieces you mention...is it # 3 in the photo?
Regarding the exhaust pipes near the head...I just checked and I can put my finger between the gap. My aim is to install a ceramic coated exhaust
setup that I hope will reduce the external temps of all of the exhaust etc pipes.
I think things are looking like I need to simply get a complete set of genuine tinware and refit everything and relocate the ignition system as the
engine will need to be removed, I assume that it will be a good time to fit an electric fan to the external oil cooler and kill a few birds with one
stone.
CIP1 have what they describe as OE Genuine VW ( http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-113-198-100 ). Is there anybody in Australia that I can get a
complete genuine set of tinware from that has all of the correct bits and directional internal vanes????
I really appreciate all of the help you guys are providing.
Regards
Greg
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 03:01 PM |
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cars not normally have oil temp sensor for the ECU.????
.
and you also need the 1600 tinware that goes along the back of motor. the vent sits init to push the air out the bottom.
.
you could mount coil on fire wall.
i still think youll have to open lid a bit to let extra air in.
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| posted on January 27th, 2013 at 03:20 PM |
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Oh, and I just checked the timing and it's set at 25 degrees.
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