| [ Total Views: 183968 | Total Replies: 268 | Thread Id: 36884 ] |
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 VWCOOL
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 12:27 PM |
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Big brakes for Beetle NOW WITH EVEN MORE PICS!!
For the last year or so, I have been developing a big brake package for the front end of BJ Beetles that I hope to manufacture and sell to other VW
enthusiasts. Yesterday, I fitted my prototype package to the front end of my hottie Oval for road testing so I thought I'd take a few pics...
This upgrade consists of modified spindles and a hub and calliper bracket machined from billet. The calliper I have chosen is the common, low-cost and
very effective single-piston sliding finned aluminium PBR Corvette/Holden calliper, commonly known as the 'VL Turbo' calliper used on VL-VS
Holden/HSV V8s.
The disc is a 290/24mm vented unit made by DBA for an XR8 Falcon. Using as many OE parts as possible means there are no problems with low-cost spares
supply in the future. Regular and high-performance brake pads, rebuild kits and rotors will be available almost forever.
The hub is machined with the correct 'spigot' size to positively locate the centre of the wheel, a common (and technically illegal) omission with
aftermarket brakes and a common reason for refusal at engineering/rego time. Unlike some aftermarket packages, there is no increase in track and the
bearings and seals are standard VW.
With more than double the pad area and a huge increase in heat-absorbing and heat-shedding ability, the braking effectiveness and fade resistance for
super-quick street Beetles and Buggies (eg: WRX power, 1916cc, strokers, turbos etc etc) goes without saying.
I have designed the package to fit inside 15-inch or larger Porsche or Ford wheels. Due to the calliper's size (double that of std ATE/Beetle), they
will NOT fit inside widened VW wheels.
My prototype runs a Ford stud pattern and Falcon AU 15x6-inch rims, which are a perfect fit under my standard guards. I chose these rims (and the
Falcon PCD) for reasons of cost and popularity: Falcon wheels are piled up in wrecking yards, are cheap, and there is a huge range of factory and
aftermarket wheels, too. EF-EL 'cop chaser' 15x6-inch rims (with less backspace) are an alternative for people who wish to 'fill out' widened
guards, as are the later-model AUII-BA 16x7-inch steel rims. Of course, the Porsche stud pattern will also be available to those who wish to use or
retain Porsche wheels. Note, too, that the conversion uses wheel studs - much more user-friendly than VW's original bolts!
After I am happy with the front upgrade performance (currently testing with T3 rear drums) and master cylinder choice, this front brake upgrade will
be tested with a disc rear for a super-effective street legal (all-new parts - no restudding) high-performance Beetle brake upgrade.
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]
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Gibbo
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 12:30 PM |
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Sounds great! Cant wait to see some pics!
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Herbie
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 12:55 PM |
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I can resize the pics for you if thats the trouble,
Just email them to tonedefunkster@hotmail.com
otherwise if its some other problem with posting the pics I'll just sit here staring at the screen till they appear, hahaha
You can understand my interest given I am running 3 times standard power at the moment with plans to more than double that in the future
Cheers Anthony
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 01:12 PM |
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Had a look at these yesterday...................faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarken beautiful.
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subaru.freak
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 01:16 PM |
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Bit off topic, sorry, but Craig, are you a relative of GT? |
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Dasdubber
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 01:23 PM |
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Sounds promising - the legality is something that a lot of people would obviously want confirmation for before going down this path. I know there was
talk of national standards for such modifications but not sure if they are in place yet, so interstate enthusiasts will probably ask you these sorts
of questions re. certification in their particular area.
Good stuff for developing something new though, hats off to you if it all goes ahead!
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 01:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by subaru.freak
Bit off topic, sorry, but Craig, are you a relative of GT?
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who's aking:duh
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subaru.freak
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 01:39 PM |
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ACP journo . . . Love his work in 4WD Monthly, even though it is Express...
[Edited on 29/3/2005 by subaru.freak] |
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Flintstones
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 08:37 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
The calliper I have chosen is the common, low-cost and very effective single-piston sliding finned aluminium PBR Corvette/Holden calliper, commonly
known as the 'VL Turbo' calliper used on VL-VS Holden/HSV V8s.
The disc is a 290/24mm vented unit made by DBA for an XR8 Falcon.
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VWCOOL, the standard commodore rotor thickness for the VL turbo caliper is 22mm.....
any reason for the thicker rotor?
Cheers
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waltermitty
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 08:58 PM |
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Sonds like the ticket . Nice work.
Will these be OK with drop spindles?
what happens for attaching the cailipers to the spindle? If drop spindles such as the CBs were used do you weild new caliper attachment points to
them?
MiTcl
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Turbo54
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 09:13 PM |
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keep me posted on legality, and rear disks. I have been looking at various sets of these but also want to run CB dropped spindles. Please keep me
posted. Any chance of getting the rotor to a commodore stud pattern eg re-drill or use commodore DBA disks as my rims are commodore stud pattern. Are
the disk you are using grooved and drilled?
Thanks
Turbo54
C'mon kids gather round,
there's a new sensation hitting town,
It's moving straight, low to the ground,
it'll pick you up when your feeling down.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 10:20 PM |
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Pics!!
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 10:21 PM |
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pic
lol... what do YOU reckon is gunna take the punishment better?!
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 29th, 2005 at 11:11 PM |
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more info
Sorry about the lack of pics... there are some there now and more will follow.
Thanks for your responses. Some questions answered:
Dropped spindles: The standard spindles must be modified by machining on-centre with the stub axle (as per factory process). An offset spindle will
mean custom set-up for machining... and it may mean clearance issue with steering arms etc etc.. so the answer is: Maybe - I will have to take a look!
Same answer for Type 3s.. I am involved in a WRX/Fastback transplant at the moment, which will need four-wheel discs for engineering/rego, but I
haven't looked that far ahead yet.
Legality: Legality and continued compliance with ADRs or state rego regs is the responsibility of the vehicle owner (ie: Really, you need to get an
engineers certificate for this mod). I am very familiar with engineering certification for legal rego of modified cars and have had all the components
manufactured accordingly. (eg: no welding; adequate clearance to rim, suspension and steering components; use of off-the-shelf components such as
brake lines; adequate cross-sectional area for load-bearing components; provision for centre spigot, choice of OE studs/nuts, radius on all machined
edges etc) I am proud to say that all components exceed OE quality.
Commodore rims: My original idea was to use a Commodore PCD so I could "share" wheels with my other car, an HSV. I bought two sets of rims to play
with but I soon discovered the backspace/offset of the Commodore rims wasn't suitable. There is a choice of offsets for Fords (EF-EL run 100mm
backspace; AU-BA run 125mm) giving the ability to cater for huge neg camber OR pack out flared guards (EF-EL) or keep things nice under standard
guards (AU - like my own Beetle in the pics). There is also a 16-inch rim choice with AUII-BA. All things considered, the Ford rims are a more
suitable fit and give a wider choice than Commodore. ( :cry: Yes, I'm a Holden man... when I'm not playing Beetles, that is!)
For reasons of cost and simplicity (if you are rebuilding a Bug from the ground up), I recommend using Ford rims. If you already have Porsche (or
other) rims, I will be able to supply whatever PCD you like, complete with matching disc. The hub design and rotor I have chosen can accommodate up to
130mm PCD (Porsche).
Having said that, this brake package will fit inside 15x6 Commodore steel 'chaser' rims but the backspace (5mm more than AU) decreases shock tower
and swaybar clearance on full steering lock too much for my liking. The AU rims don't suffer to the same degree (although, like most 6-inch fitments
on front of BJ beetles, steering lock must be reduced and you can't run too much neg camber). My own car (IRS, BJ Oval) has 'bent' upper arms,
camber eccentrics and clearanced shock towers to cater for neg camber; however, for testing I have replaced the upper arms with standard to ensure
compatibility with customer cars.
22 vs 24mm rotor thickness: I put a lot of effort into finding the best rotors/pads/callipers/diameter/offset/cost/performance and "bang for the
bucks" compromise. I spent months looking at everything from Audi to Subaru to Lexus to Range Rover in wreckers and parts catalogs for 'donor'
rotors and callipers that would fit the Beetle without punching out the track width or fouling on the steering etc etc. Some of you may recall my
posts here and on other forums quizzing on offsets, calliper piston diameters, etc etc when I couldn't find the info elsewhere. As it turns out AU
Falcon (290/24mm) under VL-VS callipers (VL had 22mm, later cars 23mm rotor thickness) was the best match for diameter, rotor height and thickness.
And thank goodness, they are cheap and readily available! Slotted, cross-drilled, standard... take your pick! I have had excellent results with
slotted rotors in my other cars over the years so that's what I'm using again on my Beetle.
Against my hopes, I discovered today that the standard Beetle master cylinder must be upgraded. I installed a Kombi unit (larger piston) and all
looks/feels good so far....
I will update this thread as my testing continues.:thumb
[Edited on 29/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 29/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
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56astro
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 08:00 AM |
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Love to see a pic of a beetle with Ford "chaser" wheels
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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Herbie
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 09:03 AM |
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I have been considering a similar setup, I want Hebie to stop like he is tied to a tree, I have already wanderered through 2 intersections full of
traffic with the brake pedal nearly broken under the force of my foot/feet.
But each avenue I go down has a common belief that the front will just lock and skid before anything else without rear brakes of a similar nature as
the vw is to rear heavy for the most part, I guess this makes sense given I have locked the standard front brakes up many times long before the car
was suffering any real braking forces.
I ran on my RX3 of a few years ago, chrysler centura front discs and VH commadore calipers, ...... boy did that baby have an anchor!!!! it used to
stop as hard as you dared, it was very impressive, no doubt this setup will be similar but maybe only when accompanied with rear discs too,
we'll no doubt all be watching with eager eyes to see how this setup develops,
with all the cheap japanese {Metric} cars filling our wrecking yards, I think there must be at least one very easily modified disc brake setup that
fitts the back of a VW, so many front wheel drive big brake setups lying around on dead wrecks.
watching with great interest to see how the testing goes,
Very impressed with the setup so far,
BTW RAV4 rims are ford pre AU pattern and are nearly all neg offset, {If that means they go mostly in and not much out}
I have a set for my Splitty and they are nice and wide look cool too. and were only $40
If that helps anyone!
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 09:09 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
Love to see a pic of a beetle with Ford "chaser" wheels
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What, like this one?!!
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 09:09 AM |
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another pic
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 09:35 AM |
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I am keen to 'validate' the big front discs with T3 rear drums as many people already have this set-up on thier hottie Bugs and it would be nice to
know you can fit the big front brakes with T3 rear drums and know it's all going to work. But of course, four-wheel discs are the ultimate...
The rear discs we have also been working on is adapted from the tried and tested Falcon EA setup. Many other Veedubbers have fitted these over the
years. The Falcon rear hardware is relatively inexpensive, is compatible with cable handbrake, has spare parts backup and offers reasonably-priced
slotted and crossdrilled options. The first set we built/adapted is Porsche stud pattern but hasn't seen the road yet (currently on a rolling shell).
The Falcon rear package will be installed on my car as soon as I have completed testing with the 'Big Disc'/T3 drum rear setup. To keep variables to
a minimum, all my testing will be on 205/60 tyres on all four corners. Diffeent diamter tyres/wheels front-to-rear can alter brake bias slightly,
resulting in premature lockup at one end or the other. I may find I need to alter front/rear bias with a proportioning valve. In the interests of
keeping cost and complexity to a minimum, hopefully not...
(PS: I will not be testing with standard 1500 Beetle rear drums as I don't know of anyone who uses them in performance applications!)
For now, the prototype rear disc brakes use a machined and redrilled T3 drive plate but I am also investigating having new hubs manufactured to make
the complete brake package absolutely 100 percent brand-new components with no re-studding/welding of hubs. This will cost me quite a few $ (I better
sell some more Hoodjax, huh!) but I am keen to offer a no-ifs, no-buts, no-compromises, no-questions, 100 percent 'engineerable' and legal brake
conversion for high performance VWs.
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
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56astro
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 11:10 AM |
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Awesome
great work G.
I'm having a little chuckle thinking what'd b like under full, non-skiding braking in a 800kg beetle with those mothers as brakes
:thumb
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 11:25 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
Awesome
great work G.
I'm having a little chuckle thinking what'd b like under full, non-skiding braking in a 800kg beetle with those mothers as brakes
:thumb
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yeah, I love big brakes... I had 330mm twin-pistons on my old Commodore and it was great... I reckon these jobbies will be better!
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
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MikeM
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 11:48 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
Against my hopes, I discovered today that the standard Beetle master cylinder must be upgraded. I installed a Kombi unit (larger piston) and all
looks/feels good so far....
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Which Kombi unit? Early single circuit or Latter duel circuit.
Was it a straight bolt in or did you have to modify something?
Maybe a picture would help. Thanks.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 12:54 PM |
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It's a late-model (74-82, I think) dual circuit unit that I had to adapt with a bit of stuffing around. Looks similar to Beetle, but isn't...
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MikeM
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 02:02 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
It's a late-model (74-82, I think) dual circuit unit that I had to adapt with a bit of stuffing around
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What did you have to adapt, what in particular was different, the way it bolts on? the way the plunger works? etc
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 03:51 PM |
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I had to shorten the pushrod, blank-off two line-outs and then add T-pieces to the remaining two line-outs to accept FL, FR, R lines plus brake light
switch, re-make and re-route most of the brake lines, play with the reservoir hoses using new grommets (because the Beetle lines don't simply plug
in), and use two new high tensile bolts and nuts to hold it in the car because the mounting flange on the Kombi MC casting isn't threaded like the
Beetle one... apart from that, it was direct bolt-in! :duh. Just now, I bled the whole system and it seems to work okay now with a rock-solid
pedal!:thumb
Let the tyre destruction begin!
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
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tassupervee
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 06:52 PM |
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VW Cool
If it help you.
There are one piece rear disc/hubs readily available (T-3) which are quite affordable.
These are the clobber of choice for disc brake conversions on Formula Vees
Bolt right on.
From memory, 9mm thickness which should be adequate for rears.
I cant see any reason not to be able to get them undrilled sos you can drill them for any stud pattern that gives you a stiffy.
The discs are plain but can be slotted easily.
This may be an option for you to consider as it will cut down on a few manufacturing processes.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 11:12 PM |
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9mm is to thin for the EA calliper... :cry:
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Kafer Lover
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| posted on March 30th, 2005 at 11:56 PM |
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This sounds the bees knees, what is your expected timing for having them 'on the market?
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VWCOOL
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| posted on March 31st, 2005 at 10:27 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Kafer Lover
This sounds the bees knees, what is your expected timing for having them 'on the market?
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As soon as I am 100 percent happy with how they perform. I have put lots of effort into this little 'pet project' and although I'm keen to supply
them to others, having got this far, I'm not going to cut any corners. I want to rack up a couple of thousand test kays just to be sure - all is
looking good so far - and then do final costings of all the components. Fingers crossed, and with other commitments considered (manufacturing brakes
is not my 'real' job; like the Hoodjax that I also make, it's a diversion from the 'real world'!) I reckon four to six weeks 
[Edited on 31/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
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Herbie
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| posted on March 31st, 2005 at 10:47 AM |
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Although it may be condidered a patch rather than a design, space plates the same shape as the ea falcon brake pad, one each between the caliper
piston and the brake pad, surely would do the trick, even an old set of pads with the meat machined off them and a relief through the centre for the
spring.
This would allow the disc thickness to be variable,
Fiat used the same rear disc setup on heaps of different models, so they should be cheap and available to buy, they would be closer to the disc
thickness of the other T-3 discs available, and they have a cable handbrake too, I held onto a set for years till one day I got all purge the rubbishy
and chucked them out. They were Fiat 124 Callipers and discs.
Maybe this helps someone, Maybe I'm talking crap, who knows? its a mystery! :P
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
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