Beetle Historic Touring Racing Group NC - Updated

Dicko Slammed & Awesome Dubber

81 posts · joined Nov 2008 · 2 Nov 2015, 8:13 pm

#1020520

Hi guys

Further to my previous post on building a swing axle race car I was hoping if people would help me in proving the 1500 Beetle's racing history in Australia. If it has one.

I need to prove to CAMS that 1500 beetles were raced in Australia during the period 1968-1972. The are no other beetles racing in the country in this class and there is no CAMS spec sheet for this car. What I have to do to gain a historic log book is find proof such as timing sheets, photos, newspaper clippings etc and apply to CAMS for recognition of the model's racing history.

Can any of you help with info or point me towards people/ organisations that would know? I'll give Greg Mackie a call but the more info the better.

Thanks Dicko.

gavmore Casual Dubber

44 posts · joined Sep 2009 · 2 Nov 2015, 11:15 pm

#1020533

Hi dicko,

What class are you building your car for??
My 59 vw beetle is to my knowledge the only cams registered historic racing car running to full specs, the car was originally built by Terry Thompson (sits on the board at eastern creek raceway i believe)
If you are looking to enter into historic racing the regs are as follows:
Group NA all cars built prior to 1958 unless run over models for following year
Group NB all cars built prior to 1964
Group NC all cars built prior to 1972
Obviously there is different engine size classes in all groups.
I have a full fact sheet for historic requirements if you would like?
It is my belief that no vw beetles prior to 72 ran 1500cc engines and if so the class you would be in is NB running against cortina 1600 etc
You are very limited to what mods you can make to motors.
my car is maintained and serviced by Steve Lunn in Victoria, he runs a company called Rob Roy Historic garage, he is an expert in historic cars and regulations, he previously maintained my 2 mk 1 cortina race cars
Send me a PM if you would like any further info they may help

Cheers
Gav

P.s if you go onto HTCAV.COM.AU you will find more info and links

gavmore Casual Dubber

44 posts · joined Sep 2009 · 2 Nov 2015, 11:20 pm

#1020534

Sorry Dicko, just noticed your previous post, if you are building a car for classic adelaide then you could apply for a cams historic rally car which has different regs to historic touring car.
Steve Lunn's dad drove the vw rally factory car back in the day and again would be a great point of contact for you

Cheers

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 3 Nov 2015, 7:47 am

#1020537

A friend of mine has a log booked 1500 Beetle rally car, would that help

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 3 Nov 2015, 7:55 am

#1020538

gavmore wrote:It is my belief that no vw beetles prior to 72 ran 1500cc engines

1500 motors were in 1500 Beetles from 68 - 70

the 1600 was first seen in Beetles in 1971

You might be better off with a Super Beetle, they were homologated for world rally championships

Try searching Salzburg rally Beetle

Dicko Slammed & Awesome Dubber

81 posts · joined Nov 2008 · 3 Nov 2015, 8:00 am

#1020539

Thanks Gavmore

I'll look up Steve for more info. My plans have slightly altered since starting the previous thread, originally I wanted just to have a go at running in Classic Adelaide but Now I'd like to also race in a local (Adelaide) class. My first port of call is Historic Touring Cars and if I can't get a log book for that class then possibly another class (classic rally as you said). I have the full fact sheet and understand the limitations of modification in historics. The car would run in the NC class 1101cc - 1500cc, so no 1600cc Cortinas. The hurdle I have to jump is to prove to CAMS that a 1500cc beetle raced in any form of Motorsport in the period 1968-1972 then I can apply for the car to obtain a Historic log book.

I think that doing this research and application, if successful, could lead the way for others in the class as VWs are under represented. HTCSA are very enthusiastic to have the car run and happy to help with the application process, I just need to do the research!

Dicko Slammed & Awesome Dubber

81 posts · joined Nov 2008 · 3 Nov 2015, 8:09 am

#1020540

Yeah there is a lot more information on beetles in rallying, I'll look into the rally regs and see what racing there is around SA. 1303, If rally looks like the go I'll give you a yell!

I have the car already as I bought it as a road going project. If I had a pre 66 it would be easy (alredy has a CAMS spec sheet), if I had a suerbug it may be easier but I don't so I'm persevering with the 1500.

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 3 Nov 2015, 11:19 am

#1020545

I was thinking that rally homologation could transfer across to historic cars for your purpose of proving to CAMS that they were raced in the era

Dicko Slammed & Awesome Dubber

81 posts · joined Nov 2008 · 3 Nov 2015, 12:06 pm

#1020548

Good thought, I'll investigate. cheers

sander288 "Bolt-on Master"

1,404 posts · joined Aug 2008 · 3 Nov 2015, 2:33 pm

#1020549

Hi Dicko,

An exciting category you'll be racing in! I have been (very slowly) building an Nb 1300 beetle and have often considered the swap to Nc with a 1500 engine to get bigger heads etc...

I've got some links to newspaper snippets from the time which report 1500 Beetles racing in various forms during the period; there is also stuff after 1972. If you use the site be careful to ensure it is a 1500 beetle and not a 1500 Type 3.

I think another trap is the allowances between the rally and historic regulations; I think it shouldn't be so bad with a 1500 because it already has disc brakes but there is some inconsistencies between them for earlier cars.

There is also a photo archive of sorts on www.autopics.com.au
hopefully there is a 1500 beetle in there too

Good luck with the project!!! Look forward to following it! 😏👍

Canberra Sport Car Club - Sprints (16 Dec 1969)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/107909103?searchTerm=1500%20beetle%20hillclimb&searchLimits=

Southern Cross Rally (1 Sep 1970)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/110458337?searchTerm=1500%20volkswagen&searchLimits=l-category=Article|||l-decade=197|||sortby=dateAsc

ACT Rally series (15 Feb 1972)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/101757146?searchTerm=1500%20beetle&searchLimits=l-category=Article|||l-decade=197|||sortby=dateAsc

Rally (9 May 1972)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/102020200?searchTerm=1500%20beetle&searchLimits=l-category=Article|||l-decade=197|||sortby=dateAsc

Canberra Sporting Car Club Wellington Trial (26 Sep 1972)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/102006016?searchTerm=1500%20beetle&searchLimits=l-category=Article|||l-decade=197|||sortby=dateAsc

BMW R65 LS
1967 1300 Deluxe
Swing-axles FTW ❗

Dicko Slammed & Awesome Dubber

81 posts · joined Nov 2008 · 3 Nov 2015, 3:54 pm

#1020555

G'day Sander

What great links! I think this may be all I need. I have sent them onto the Eligibility Officer at the Historic Touring Car Association of SA for feedback.

yeah NC looks the go as the disks are allowed as well as a good deal of freedom on induction, dual port heads, engine internals and trans internals. Basically some of the weak points of beetles are deemed "free".

Thank you.

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 4 Nov 2015, 6:59 am

#1020582

Good luck with your build, keep us up-to-date on how its going, particularly with the touring car assocaition

Dicko Slammed & Awesome Dubber

81 posts · joined Nov 2008 · 5 Nov 2015, 5:17 pm

#1020622

OK guys here's an update.

Unfortunately beetles are not eligible for Historic Touring Car group Nc, this is as they didn't compete in the Australian Touring Car Championship or in Improved Production during the appropriate period.

If you want to race a beetle in Historic Touring Cars you have to enter the Na class thus the car must be pre 1958! The spec sheet can be found here:

http://docs.cams.com.au/Motorsport/Historic/Group%20N/Volkswagen%201200%20Sedan%20-%20Na.pdf

However due to a Type 3 competing in the Hardie-Ferodo 500 at Bathurst in 1969 this model may be eligible for Nc. It will have to run in the 1501-2000cc class thus may be uncompetitive (although engine internals are relatively free) I'm waiting to hear back. No use to me but others may appreciate the info.

sander288 "Bolt-on Master"

1,404 posts · joined Aug 2008 · 6 Nov 2015, 2:18 pm

#1020654

Why must a 1500 run in the 1501-2000cc category? they are 1493cc

BMW R65 LS
1967 1300 Deluxe
Swing-axles FTW ❗

Dicko Slammed & Awesome Dubber

81 posts · joined Nov 2008 · 6 Nov 2015, 3:12 pm

#1020655

The Type 3 that ran in the Hardie-Ferodo 500 had a 1600cc engine in it. CAMS seem to be very anal on details like this. I'm in the process of trying to get a CAMS spec sheet together for the Type 3 so hopefully it makes it easier for someone to enter Nc in the future.

I'm currently unsure if you can run a model with a smaller engine in it than the one the specification sheet is based on, I'll find out but my assumption is that you can't.

sander288 "Bolt-on Master"

1,404 posts · joined Aug 2008 · 6 Nov 2015, 8:14 pm

#1020662

Fair enough; here is a picture of that 1600 type 3 from 1969. Even being in the 1600-2000cc class with the allowance to up the barrels 1.5mm to 87mm allows some decent scope for power especially with all these "mouse" motors becoming better and better!

http://autopics.com.au/69718-campbell-murphy-bathurst-1969-volkswagen-vw-1600-de-luxe/

Also; Autopics had an image of a 1500S in November 1964 at the Sandown 6hr; so if you are going through the process of getting specification sheets perhaps a 1500S would be possible in both Nb and Nc too hopefully.... it's pretty late in 64!

http://autopics.com.au/64146-john-roxburgh-frank-coad-vauxhall-velox-tony-cooper-joe-hills-cortina-gt-paul-england-doug-stewart-volkswagen-1500s-doug-whiteford-geoff-hopkins-peugeot-404-sandown-6-hour-international-29th-november-1964-photographer-peter-dabbs/

BMW R65 LS
1967 1300 Deluxe
Swing-axles FTW ❗

sander288 "Bolt-on Master"

1,404 posts · joined Aug 2008 · 6 Nov 2015, 8:17 pm

#1020663

Video of the '64 Sandown 6hr; ~ 2:30 mark there is the 1500S going around the bend!

BMW R65 LS
1967 1300 Deluxe
Swing-axles FTW ❗

Dicko Slammed & Awesome Dubber

81 posts · joined Nov 2008 · 7 Nov 2015, 6:54 pm

#1020708

Thanks Sander I'll forward the info to CAMS and see what we come up with. I'll report back but I think it may take some time.